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G3-5: Shaper defectors


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wackypanda wackypanda

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 11:53 PM #1 G3-5: Shaper defectors

In the interests of my hypothetical re-writes of G3, so as to join the party with everybody and their dog, are there any rebel NPCs in G4 and G5 who are defected Shapers apart from Greta, Litalia, and Khyryk?

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 04:20 AM #2 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Astoria. :)
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Posted 01 March 2017 - 01:38 PM #3 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Astoria is not a rebel NPC.  Although she shares many things in common with Greta's faction of rebels, she is still a Shaper, and this is not a technicality -- as she is still a member of the ruling Shaper Council.

Presumably there are a fair number of minor defected Shapers if you look around those games.
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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 02:46 PM #4 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Astoria I think leads Greta's factions of Rebels, Greta seems to say so in a dialogue somewhere. The annoying Drakon deeeeeep down in Dera Reaches, White Wastes I think, is working more for her and less for Ghaldring too according to the dialogue. To join her faction you have to be a rebel. There are those letters Rawal has and those messages with the Drakon Ghaldring dislikes. She allows Serviles the right to not be auto-enslaved.
She is not (very) openly a rebel, I think, working (not very) covertly within the ranks of the Shapers, but certainly counts as a defector in my opinion (and according to the opinion of various Shaper assassins)... unless Panda means declared and open defectors like Litalia?
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Posted 01 March 2017 - 05:05 PM #5 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Actually, to join her faction you have to have not angered the Shapers TOO much; you can't have done the things the Rebels ask you to do.

Her goal is peace with the rebels and she's willing to make concessions to get it.  That is very, very different from the goal of all the Rebels except for Greta's faction.  They both seek peace.  But Astoria isn't an actual rebel any more than Greta is an actual loyalist.
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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 05:17 PM #6 G3-5: Shaper defectors

In my opinion she's a rebel but not openly. As you said, like Greta, Astoria is a moderate that wants peace (a bad for Shapes one). However she's willing to go to too dark places to get it and she's nearly openly conspiring with the enemy to bring an end to the war that she openly claims the Shapers will lose. Towards the start of her quests she says "us and the Rebels". Towards the end, I remember noticing her excluding herself from the Shapers, not saying "us" when she talks about them. Add that to several moderates (or just Ghaldring-disliking) Rebels saying they work for Astoria and the fact that you should be somewhat rebel to join and I think she counts as a covert defector as I mentioned earlier.
She's not like that nice Turret-making Shaper that is just moderate but pro-Shaper. She leads a faction of ... traitors to the Rebellion and traitors to the Shapers you can call them (Greta's action in the fight), or you can call them moderates that are sick with the war/fanaticism in both sides and are willing to go a bit too far to end the war now, committing acts of treason to what they see as bad leadership of Shapers\Rebellion.

Of course, Panda may be requesting openly declared Rebels that go against their former sect.
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Star Sage Star Sage

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 02:16 AM #7 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Back to the original topic for a bit, though I will respond to the Astoria stuff later, but Master Hoge and Morales(I think that's his name, the guy to whom the crate was addressed on Dhonal's Isle).

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 04:38 AM #8 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Hoge is not in GF4 or GF5 though.
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Triumph Triumph

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 06:12 AM #9 G3-5: Shaper defectors

The only non-Greta former Shaper who appears in G4 that I can recall is Khyryk. Poor fellow has vanished by G5, though. And he's emphatically not a rebel, just someone who has turned against Shaper orthodoxy. I guess maybe Litalia sort of counts, too? But she's her own special brand of crazy, AND I assume you are looking for more minor characters, not two of the biggest rebel NPCs.

It was actually something that disappointed me about G4. Not only did the theme of defecting Shapers (whether because they are honorable or corrupt) that runs through G1-3 with multiple characters seem to drop off, but there were hardly any rebel lifecrafters to talk with either. It often feels like the PC and Greta are the only two non-drakon shapers the rebels have (well, there was Shaila, I guess) and I really wanted more chances to talk to the PC's "equals" on the rebel side.

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Nim Nim

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 08:04 AM #10 G3-5: Shaper defectors

You forgot Jared and the two newbie lifecrafters who die in the tutorial. I suppose the lack of others may be due to the crushing defeat the human half of the rebellion had at Thornton ?

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 08:05 AM #11 G3-5: Shaper defectors

The theme in GF4 though was that the human lifecrafters have been nearly wiped out and the Drakons refused to make any more. The canister-junky lifecrafter, Greta and the character are the human lifecrafters we see. There are not many off-screen I think.

Shapers didn't defect usually. They were promoted for loyalty. I don't expect there was a large number of Shaper defectors.

Khyrik in GF4 counts as a rebel (Even if just rebel of conscience), although he's not a member the Rebellion, since he is against the Shaper doctrine.

In the first 2 1/2 Islands I've seen in GF3, only Hoge and Litalia have defected to the Rebellion. Openly. There is one Shaper in the 3rd island, that has some Glaaks locked by or something, that is pro-creation-rights. She could become a rebel I think (please don't tell me if she does or not or even if it's not discussed further). I got some rebel-points talking with her.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 10:44 AM #12 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Meanwhile, in G1 and G2...

(Really tempted to make that your custom title ;) )
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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 12:40 PM #13 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Well, I was referring to the G4 part though and GF3 first half (or 1/3rd most probably), as I said in my post.
Weren't GF1-2 decades before the great rebellion?
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Triumph Triumph

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 07:11 AM #14 G3-5: Shaper defectors

View PostNim, on 02 March 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

You forgot Jared and the two newbie lifecrafters who die in the tutorial.

Nah, didn't forget. That's why I said "hardly any rebel lifecrafters," rather than "none." The ones in the tutorial aren't even lifecrafters yet, not having used the Geneforge, and die in like five seconds anyway. Thus Jared, one rebel lifecrafter = "hardly any." :D I also left out Monarch from my comment above, but he's doing his own thing.

View Postalhoon, on 02 March 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

Shapers didn't defect usually. They were promoted for loyalty. I don't expect there was a large number of Shaper defectors.

Judging by G4-5 there weren't many Shaper defectors in the war, yes, but my whole point was this diverges from the portrayal of Shapers throughout the first three games! The first three games have a major theme of dissenter Shapers who depart from orthodoxy in one way or another (some going into all-out rebellion, others just disgruntled with the Shaper system and pointing to cracks in the edifice). In G3, you already know about Litalia, Hoge, Fanjul (the one Dhonal's Keep who cares about creations), and Greta. No real spoilers, but you're not done meeting less-than-orthodox / not-always-entirely-loyal shapers in that game, by any means (they aren't all outright rebels, but "loyal" is not a word you'd call them). Since it'll be many years until you play G1/G2 and you won't remember this list by them, those games include Goettsch, Coratta, Zakary (and some followers whose names I forget), Barzahl (and some followers whose names I forget), Tuldaric, Carnelian, Sharon, and a couple others - all Shaper characters of various levels of story significance who are not strictly loyal. Arguably in the first three games you meet at least many dissenting, law-breaking, and/or outright rebellious Shapers as you do steadfastly loyal ones like Shanti and Aodare and Rahul. How far out of bounds they go varies widely, from just speaking critically of Shaper rules to all-out rebellion. The key point is that for all the talk of strict Shaper control and loyalty, the Shapers actually have a HUGE problem with loyalty and with getting their own members to follow the rules. One of the themes of those games seems to be that the Shapers' own sins became their undoing - that between the inability of reasonable dissenters (a la Khyryk) to effect any needed reforms, the activities of corrupt Shapers unleashing new horrors and spreading dangerous knowledge, and the Shaper Council's massive failure to deal with this, the rebellion G3-5 came. For Greta to be the token sole former Shaper on the rebel side in G4 is a major shift. Perhaps Jeff had his reasons, but it's still a thematic departure.

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Nim Nim

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 07:30 AM #15 G3-5: Shaper defectors

True, I guess using a bunch of canisters doesn't make one a lifecrafter yet. And I forgot Monarch too, shame on me :blush:

I'm counting at least 12 shapers in G2 alone who aren't quite loyal, surprisingly many.

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 07:53 AM #16 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Only surprising if you buy the Shaper line the they strictly control everything and absolute loyalty is the norm. :D If, on the other hand, the truth is that the Shapers consist some relatively harmless dissenters whom the stodgy establishment ignores, some horrifyingly dangerous rebels whom the stodgy establishments doesn't effectively suppress, and a small cadre reasonable traditionalists like Shanti who are too few in number too make much headway, then it's not so surprising. I think that's the impression we're supposed to get.

There is a counterargument, I guess. G1-3 take place in the fringes backwaters of the Shaper world (however many continents it has ;) ) so you could argue that unorthodox Shapers naturally gravitated to those regions, accounting for the high proportion of not-entirely-loyal Shapers you meet in those games. Meanwhile, in the more settled parts of the Shaper world, orthodoxy reigns supreme. It's exactly those parts of the world you encounter in G4-5, and thus the reason you see more orthodox Shapers in those games.

The rebuttal is that even if dissenter Shapers are drawn to the "Wild West" so to speak, that doesn't explain why the supposedly effective establishment fails so seriously at eliminating corruption in G1-2 once it finds out about it. Moreover, rogue behavior exists at the highest levels of power, as seen in G5 where both Rawal and Taygen, actual members of the vaunted Shaper Council, traffic in illicit shaping. I think they are the capstone to a strong argument that Shapers like them are the norm, or least common, while sincere traditionalists like Alwan or reasonable reformers like Astoria are the unusual ones.

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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 09:40 AM #17 G3-5: Shaper defectors

THAT many?!? I assumed there would be like 5 Shapers in GF2... You all picked my curiosity about it.

I think BTW that Shaper loyalty truth is between Triumph's take and Shapers' take: Not as bad as Triumph claims IMO, certainly not near-total control as the Shapers think.

BTW, out of the 4 Shaper Councils in GF5:
- One is breaking about as many rules as the Rebellion (Rawal)
- One is allied with well known rebels and kinda leads a rebel faction (Astoria)
- One is a loyalist to the Shaper law ... that bends said law and keeps trying the same tricks despite they failed before (Alwan)
- One is a hateful coward madman that wants to hit reset and send civilization back to the dark ages (Taygen)

I wouldn't say the trend of "Shapers are their own undoing" is ever away or "Shaper traditionalists are the vastly common". Even with those we do interact and seem fine we have little interaction. Is that Guardian working under Taygen really close to tradition? Or he's disgusted with just Taygen's departure from tradition (destroying loyal creations) but would have no problem say... self-Shaping? We never had the chance to discuss it. How about that Agent prison warden in Alwan's fort? What's her take on re-absorbing loyal creations? Or outsiders having access to non-Shaping magic? We never know.

We DO meet a lot that display departure from the Laws. That doesn't mean the rest follow it well.

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seen in G5 where both Rawal and Taygen, actual members of the vaunted Shaper Council, traffic in illicit shaping. I think they are the capstone to a strong argument that Shapers like them are the norm, or least common, while sincere traditionalists like Alwan or reasonable reformers like Astoria are the unusual ones.   

Ahem, "Law or death!" Alwan has creations that can command other Creations, has allowed Moseh to exist, actually he gave the order for Moseh to exist and there's a strong possibility he gave the get go for creations that can Shape, at least in Control Core A even if not Control Core B. He also has worked with Geneforged freaks that according to law should be put down immediately twice or thrice if you count GF4.
In GF3, he doesn't sweat it when I use Canisters and is angry if I pass them to Lankan but not just because of the Self-Shaping but also because... Lankan defied the Shapers.
And if you want to be literal? I have talked to Alwan with Drayks, Gazers and Drakons in the room. Not a word of protest. And it's not hard to put a script command there to say "Alwan looks at your forbidden Creations and frowns. He doesn't approve.". I dare say it's not that hard to put a script command that if a Drakon, Gazer or Drayk is within the same room with Alwan he would turn hostile.
He is not a sincere traditionalist, he's a Shaper-Supremacy guy whatever laws he has to break.

Astoria? Eh... reform is not traditional for Shapers. Shaper reformers are an anathema, so Shapers send assassins after her.
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Nim Nim

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 10:38 AM #18 G3-5: Shaper defectors

View Postalhoon, on 03 March 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

THAT many?!? I assumed there would be like 5 Shapers in GF2... You all picked my curiosity about it.
Sounds about right, for the loyal ones that is ;)

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 12:28 PM #19 G3-5: Shaper defectors

View PostTriumph, on 03 March 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

Only surprising if you buy the Shaper line the they strictly control everything and absolute loyalty is the norm...

There is a counterargument, I guess. G1-3 take place in the fringes backwaters of the Shaper world...
You have seriously understated the counterargument.  Not only is G2 in an isolated backwater, the vast majority of the Shapers there were explicitly brought there as part of a huge undertaking that runs counter to shaping restrictions.  Of course basically none of them are loyalists.

However, just as you need to take that context into account, alhoon needs to take the context of G4 and G5 (and to a lesser degree G3) into account.  There is a huge, awful, destructive war going on.  The question of what happens when powerful Shaping is unleashed isn't theoretical, it's visible in plain sight -- while at the same time the war meant that unnecessary restrictions were already loosened (see: new creations in G4).  Of course all those things are going to result in fewer Shaper defections and less questioning of restrictions.  There's no surprise here, unless you refuse to consider that the world of G3-G5 is not the world that all those people grew up in.
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Posted 03 March 2017 - 01:28 PM #20 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Slarty: A fair point re: over-representation of disloyal Shapers in G2 - it was definitely deliberate, not just incidental (aside from maybe Sharon?). (Notably, Z and B did not start out isolated, but as Shaper enforcers, who went rogue and collected like minded compatriots). I also like your point about the impact of the war as a plausible explanation for scaring a lot of Shapers into compliance.

To Alhoon: As you quoted me, I mentioned "sincere traditionalists like Alwan or reasonable reformers like Astoria." Those are two different categories - I was not suggesting Astoria was a traditionalist. I also never suggested Alwan is a flawless paragon of Shaper orthodoxy. I described him as a sincere traditionalist, that is, one of the most prominent examples of a Shaper character who espouses traditional Shaper views on shaping and creations, and affirmed he is sincere in those views (versus folks like Rawal and Taygen who at best pay lip service to those values. I think that to some degree your standard for judging Alwan is nonsensical. First, "Traditionalist" doesn't have to equate to absolutist diehard zealot. Even in G3 Alwan shows hints tempering his early zeal with pragmatism - and it comes through further in his willingness to work with the PC in G4. You can't say he doesn't perfectly keep to his code, therefore he's a total hypocrite who doesn't mean any of that Shaper blather he spouts. That's not logical, and that's not how real people work; real people espouse values and then falter in the face of temptation sometimes, but it doesn't mean they don't sincerely hold those values. Second, if "he didn't criticize me or attack me when I used a barred creation" is your standard of orthodoxy, then not one single Shaper in G3-5 is a "traditionalist." So I just don't think that's a reasonable standard at all. How many Shaper NPCs in G4 and G5 neglect to kill the PC on sight? I presume in your book that makes them all disloyal scum? Maybe you think Jeff should have made the game like that - but he didn't and clearly we aren't supposed to read too much into it. I'm not admiring Alwan or saying we can't criticize his choices. He's clearly young and confused and indoctrinated and struggling to cope with a world going crazy in G3; he's more mature but bending the rules in pragmatic bids to advance the war effort and save all he holds dear in G4-5. I'm saying we should see Alwan (at least by G4-5, not in G3 though) as a leading example of a "sincere traditionalist" Shaper *during time of war.*

Question, Alhoon: which character(s) from G3-5 would you offer up as exemplifying Shaper orthodoxy, as demonstrating the loyalty and commitment to Shaper ideals that you find so lacking in Alwan and the other characters discussed above? Perhaps if I could see your standard of loyalty and traditionalism demonstrated in a particular character, I'd better apprehend your judgment on Alwan.

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wackypanda wackypanda

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 02:44 PM #21 G3-5: Shaper defectors

A tangent:

View Postalhoon, on 03 March 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

I have talked to Alwan with Drayks, Gazers and Drakons in the room. Not a word of protest. And it's not hard to put a script command there to say "Alwan looks at your forbidden Creations and frowns. He doesn't approve.". I dare say it's not that hard to put a script command that if a Drakon, Gazer or Drayk is within the same room with Alwan he would turn hostile.
This is true of all Shapers in all of the games. One can also argue that drakons should object to you making drakons, but they don't. We can't draw conclusions from this, for the same reason that we can't draw conclusions from the fact that no one says anything when you rob them blind by closing the door of their bedroom behind you.

Adding to Slarty's point, most of the pro-servile (as opposed to corrupt like Z and B or wilful neutral like Sharon) defectors in G2 listed here are Awakened rather than Takers. It's much easier for a Shaper who has unorthodox views on creation rights to get into that kiddie pool, so to speak. But does this also explain why NPCs like Mooralas, who were already committed in G3, don't appear in G4-5?

One way to show continuity, I guess, would be for someone like Carnelian to show up in G3. (I think the time gap between G2 and G3 is larger than between any two other games, but I'm not sure, and anyway Carnelian is stated to be young in G2.) High on canisters, as usual, but still willing to talk about how once upon a time, she believed that creations could convince Shapers that they had rights, until they were all killed in Drypeak. Now she believes that war is the only way. This process would be similar to how one of the Obeyer serviles appears in an Awakened town in G2. As it is, the pro-rebel Shaper defectors in G3 all come across as self-serving jerks instead of as people who genuinely believe that the terrible things they are doing are necessary (but that is another topic on its own).

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 02:49 PM #22 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Because the G3 PC killed Mooralas. :p

Also, don't forget the Barzites.
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Posted 03 March 2017 - 02:49 PM #23 G3-5: Shaper defectors

A moment there! I didn't say that Alwan is a complete hypocrite that deserves death or something.
I said he's far from Orthodoxy despite what he says. He's "Shapers will win, no matter what" and does some seriously anti-Shapery things (and knows it). Of course he's not close to Taygen or Rawal! Never said he is.

Rawal is as far from Shaper Orthodoxy as Litalia (OK, exaggeration but not many orders of magnitude; he built a freaking geneforge and wants to make canisters for self-shape).
Taygen... is shaping diseases illegal? Even if it is not illegal (which I think it is) his plan is to eradicate every Shaped thing down to living tools and Ornks. I don't even know HOW he got to infect living tools, but he did. Strange that DOOR mechanisms died BTW and Drakons didn't. I mean... what kind of cosmic irony is that? "Tharsak-Hirn survived commander, weakened but alive!" "Don't worry. He's permanently locked in his lab cause the door died. Let the abomination die slowly of starvation"

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  one of the most prominent examples of a Shaper character who espouses traditional Shaper views on shaping and creations
However, this is not true in my opinion. Alwan breaks most of the rules. Moseh self-shapes to a monster that feeds by drawing lives from others. In GF4 some of his guys throw out untested things in the "wall" that keeps the Rebels in. He creates creations that can control creations (and even Shape). He orders people to teach outsiders about Shaping. He works with Geneforged individuals...
How are those Shaper views or traditional views on Shaping and creations? I remind you that the character in GF4 is referred to as a Creation.
I laughed my butt off when MOSEH of all people called me an illegal abomination, as he stood there having shaped himself in crystals, after finishing siphoning out the life of captives.


Quote

Question, Alhoon: which character(s) from G3-5 would you offer up as exemplifying Shaper orthodoxy, as demonstrating the loyalty and commitment to Shaper ideals that you find so lacking in Alwan and the other characters discussed above? Perhaps if I could see your standard of loyalty and traditionalism demonstrated in a particular character, I'd better apprehend your judgment on Alwan.

That guardian that blackmails you in the beginning, that makes clear you are illegal but if you prove very useful and save thousands of lives by betraying the rebels and helping them destroy the Geneforge, they may, may allow you to live in prison, is one.
That obnoxious agent in GF5 that adamantly refuses to teach you and hunts rebels and trakovites in Rawal's city is another (although we didn't see ALL of her beliefs, many came up).
And then, are the people that we don't know if they hold true to all Shaper law things, like Taygen's guardian that dislikes absorbing creations but doesn't actually want to discuss it with outsiders (I think he refuses to train you too BTW) and the Smith that said "HELL NO" and left the order to become a smith, instead of betraying his beliefs and absorb creations. (He doesn't teach you, he doesn't absorb creaions but Although we don't know how he feels about other things)
Giving to those the benefit of Doubt, they are traditional.

Oh, and the nice turret making guy in GF5. Although he is TOO traditional when it comes to new Creations. You ol' G1-2 people would probably call him "pre-war cautious" as he takes veeeery much attention and care as he tries to improve Turrets. Come-on buddy... if  so many people have sent Fyoras with aura attacks or exploding thands to the Foundry... can't you just speed it up?
There's a damn war and the enemy is at the gates. You make Turrets to guard the gates. Make them. Channel your inner Alwan and disregard Shaper cautiousness. (That's the first step to turn someone to the rebellion. As they start moving away from their morals, you slip them a canister saying that it would do much to help, save time and lives, one canister can barely be detected. Bring up Rawal the councilor's prediction it won't be illegal for long. Then Throw a Drakon or Gazer nearby so that he's more tempted and you take him down the path)


Quote

One way to show continuity, I guess, would be for someone like Carnelian to show up in G3
Carnelian of the Carnelian gloves?! He/She/It exists? In GF2?!
Can someone please offer Jeff a lot of money to remake that sooner than later? :(
How did that person's gloves end up in the Ashen isles? I think a scout had them.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Agitproprioception Agitproprioception

The Demon of Good Taste

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 03:06 PM #24 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Carnelian is an adjective.  It describes either the color and/or the inlaid gems of the gloves and was presumably chosen because of its similarity in color to fire given what the gloves do.  I'm pretty sure that item appeared in some of the later Avernums as well.  No relation to the random minor NPC, clearly.
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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 03:27 PM #25 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Oh...
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Nim Nim

Shaman

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:44 PM #26 G3-5: Shaper defectors

Taygens Guardian will train you if you work for Alwan but not for Astoria iirc.

And are you sure you want to wait ~4 years till you meet Carnelian when you could do so today ? :p




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