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Unbound Servile

What do you think of Litalia?

93 posts in this topic

The Geneforge series have many interesting characters. One of them is Litalia.

 

Madman, realist, psychopath, revolutionary ... she's been given many names and opinions about her vary greatly and this is perhaps what's the most interesting about her.

Are you drawn towards her charisma or are you aversed by her extremist measures?

Are you intrigued by her ever-evolving personallity and moral standing or do you discard her as a dubble-dealing backstabber?

 

What do YOU think of Litalia? Be it concise, elongated or just TL;DR-sized ... it doesn't matter, share your opinion!

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She attacked my character and by extension me personally. I have a deep grudge that resulted in me releasing a virus that killed every single creation.

 

Blame Litalia.

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Madwoman, psychopath, mass murderer that was more interested in killing than holding a set of principles. Her personality doesn't really evolve, the side in the name of which she commits every atrocity imaginable changes.

Killed kids with her own hands? She did it. Used terror as a weapon? She did it. Genocide? She did it (three times, two of which on her previous allies). Bioterrorism? She did it. Betray allies? She did it.

I'm pretty sure she had a thing for Ghaldring from what I saw in the finale of GF5.

 

I totally consider her the best character of the series, but she's a psychotic madwoman.

 

 

Blxz, I consider the Trakovite path of GF5 the most interesting.

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She's a zealot. Fanatical and crazed.

 

Truly idealised in her aim for the course of the Shaper world, she's the epitome of "my way or the highway"

 

R.I.P

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True but you leave aside the fact that she has changed the set of principle's she was fanatical of three times.

It is "my current way or the high way and that includes people I worked with and trained in my previous ways"

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Litalia isn't mad. Fervent and unscrupulous, sure. Overzealous, definitely. But she's interesting in her ability to recognize when her fanaticism is in the wrong and pick a new perspective for over-investment. And she's never really crazy. She'd be a lot less scary if she were just psychotic, but she's not. She's rational and willing to do what it takes to win.

 

—Alorael, who appreciates her being the same person while evolving her views. And he's pretty sure that in the era after G5, in almost any ending, there are going to be scattered people (mis)remembering her and borrowing her name. One day it'll be the Litalans who are the bloodthirsty dissent from the ruling regime and main opposition.

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Litalia was simply an extremist. Granted. Logically in a world built on tiranies extremism is the easiest/fastest way to achieve goals. The fact that it doesn't gall her be a harbinger and catalyst of destruction sugests she's a sociopath. The fact that she doesn't necessarily enjoy her actions erase the possibility of her being crazy/psychopath. In general i think she's just a rebel without a cause and overly determined in her short term goals as a way to avoid thinking about the long term ones

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From Barry Goldwater:

 

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!"

 

"Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. And let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed."

 

Sounds quite like her in how she acts and what she was trying to impose even as her idea of good changes.

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The fact that she doesn't necessarily enjoy her actions erase the possibility of her being crazy/psychopath.

Yes, but she totally enjoys her action. She says so in every game. In GF5, describing her history, she says the mass murders in the Ashen Islands were the best years of her life. In GF4, she's very proud about the extremist plan to wipe out every Shaper life and defends that the countless that would die in the fires are necessary. Despite what she claims in GF5, in GF4 she was 120% pro-Unbound, unlike Greta that was reluctant and last-line-of-defense mentality. Greta backed the Unbound because the Rebellion was faltering. Litalia backed (and helped make) the Unbound because she wanted to see every Shaper burn and their empire in ashes. And she says so often.

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I don't think thats what she meant. In g3 she is a terrorist, but she doesn't do it because she enjoy it. But because she thinks its right. Not only that, towards the end she actually starts questioning her methods and motivations. In g3 she appears mostly altered by canister cravings though.

In g4 she starts seeing the worth of trajkovite ideology. She is still a rebel but she sees wisdom in their thoughts on shaping. So unbound... No i dont think she got thrills out of the destruction she was to make. Simply she, greta and everyone knew, without the unbound the rebelion would end

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Well, she wasn't getting the laughs out of killing everything, sure. She did it because it was (according to her) necessary. But evil is at its worst when it's convenient. That she KNEW she was doing wrong in GF4, just makes her a clear villain IMO. She chose to do evil, knowingly.

 

I went back and read her replies in GF4. She often mentions "it was cruel, but necessary." or about the Trakovites "they are mad and even if they were right, those ahead of their time end up dead"

 

 

In each of Litalia's paths, she goes "it's cruel, evil, violent but necessary." She describes (GF4) how she was burning as a test serviles alive, while they were on their knees begging for their lives. She didn't like it, but did it anyway. "Necessary evil".

Fast Forward to Rebellion. Attacking a school. She didn't like it, but did it anyway. "Necessary evil." Killing trakovites in GF4. Didn't like it but it wasn't the time to discuss philosophy, so they should die. Didn't like it, but did it. Unbound. The same.

I won't spoil GF5 except to say "look at my sig and remember what Litalia asked the player to do, before he\she implied Litalia's crazy".

 

 

Simply she, greta and everyone knew, without the unbound the rebelion would end

She mentions that, but unlike Greta, she doesn't show any great reluctance.

And another thing: For Drakons, failed rebellion = extermination. For rogue serviles = "very possible extermination unless I manage to hide that I rebelled". For the human, failed rebellion = "servitude and possible extermination if my ties to the rebellion are made known".

Simply put, he stakes for humans were not as high to unleash WMDs with legs. Drakons faced total oblivion.

 

Back in GF4, Shapers and Rebels didn't know that the Unbound would just be manageable by a seasoned Shaper and that it would take 2-3 to take down a town or that they would waste away because of their power within a year from creation. They were considered the "apocalypse now" version.

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True, but its what i said earlier, she doesn't enjoy her actions. She doesn't mind them either. Thus she's a sociopath not a psychopath. And she always did her actions knowingly, it ptoves even more on g5 that she does what seems necessary if no one else would do it. She actually in geneforge 4 saved a huge amount of humans by stealing the key to monarch's black pit. Which again proves that she doesn't believe in pointless violence she does it when it feels necessary. And of course she shows no reluctance. If you as a leader show reluctance in attacking the enemy what good does it do to morale? Someone has to make the others feel like its the right choice. Its how military and leadership works. In thats aspect she is no different from any other shaper when ordering the execution of a rogue.

And true. The human part of the rebelion had lesser stakes than the rest but its up to them to decide qho they kill or die for. Like they usually say; better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

 

That is not to say she wasn't a bad person that commited horrible atrocities. Simply that its not all black and white, and she's more complicated than that.

 

This being said, alhoon pal; did the shaper propaganda get to you? Months back you were a good decent die hard rebel. What happened to the alhoon i knew? What did you do to them?

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Why're talking Geneforge. :) Absence of black & White is the hailmark of the series. There are people that can be counted on one hand that are truly indefensible or truly noble. That is given.

 

 

THAT SAID:

Months back you were a good decent die hard rebel. What happened to the alhoon i knew?

 

I am a decent die-hard rebel! How dare you sir! OK, we had a few bad eggs in the mix (Litalia + Ghaldring) but it's not that the Shapers were better (they had Litalia too + Monarch + Taygen + Moseh + Rawal + a great number of pompous insufferable ########).

 

As you said, tons of Shapers are as ruthless as Litalia (although less mad, less evil and less effective). And while Litalia is the #3 worse person in the late-half of the series (Monarch goes first, Taygen second) IMO, the rebellion is on the right side. Despite Litalia's atrocities and Ghaldring's Shaperish authoritarianism, the rebellion itself fights for liberation from Shaper Tyranny and for Drayks\Drakons for the right to exist.

 

Aside of that, yes, I consider Litalia a mad b- (and Ghaldring a Shaper-wannabe with fangs). And I accuse SHAPERS for allowing such a person to become Shaper. Taygen, Rawal, Litalia, Monarch, Moseh have aaaaaaall slipped through the cracks of the oh-so-responsible-and-effective Shaper evaluations.

I completely and absolutely back Greta's faction in the Rebellion and she had validated my support a dozen times over; from calling me buddy more or less in GF4 when she was a general and I was fresh out of Illya province, to saying to Ghaldring's face in GF5 that the rebellion doesn't fight to replace Shaper Tyranny with Drakon Tyranny and warning him to his face again that Drakons would find another rebellion striking them if they push too far.

And a few other things I won't spoil from GF5 endings. Greta was not sad to see Litalia's back when she left the Rebellion.

 

 

PS. Litalia despite what she claims to you, escaped when she figured Monarch would try to kill her, not when she figured "Monarch wanted violence". The Monarch had no reason to lie in his journals.

PS2. I let Monarch go, to go obliterate a couple of Shaper cities. I can't claim innocence here.

Greta IIRC guessed and didn't approve.

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There you are! :)

True but the rule for shapers is sanity and control, which is the exception for lifecrafters(that i know of only greta). What with heavy canister abuse.

Shapers are not perfect but they are much less likely to be insane.

Yes she did think he'd try killing her. But she could have left him with the black pit.

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I don't know WHAT the black pit is, and I want to at least finish HALF of GF3, before I return to my pre-ending save in GF4 to go find what was behind those locked doors in Monarch's place.

Greta is not a life-crafter. I don't think she used more than a couple cannisters. In the GF4 ending it says (IIRC) something about people that didn't use many canisters, like Greta... etc.

I have barely met any Shaper that counts as sane. I've met ... 2 human Lifecrafters I think. One was Cani-junky Jarred. The other was a totally sane idiot in GF5 in some cabin. All drakon lifecrafters seemed sane for Drakons.

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Shapers are tyranical and autocratic and arrogant expecting obedience and reverence and treating all against their laws with disdain and spite. But for most part they are sans, exceptions usually involve canisters. The rest include taygen, moseh and that may well be it. Rawal is not mad. Self serving not mad. And monarch is never confirmed to be a shaper or not(i myself find it unlikely that he was).

True. Greta is not a life crafter(neither is the fool at the kyshak ruins(katra?) He is learning shaping, canisters make it inate to you. In the text it says something on the lines of he was making some kind of artila but it looked imperfect. And even if he was a lifecrafter too canisters are bound to make him crazy.

Also saying drakons are sane for drakons is as helpful as saying eyebeasts are sane for eyebeasts.

Drakons were made from and drayks are generally more sane than drakons. Drakons then indulge in self shaping making newer generation progressively less sane. The effects of self shaping are the same as for using canisters. A few older drakons refrained from self shaping much. those are saner.

Bringing me back to the fact that the rebel approach on shaping is bound to bring insane "shapers".

While the shaper approach to shaping might miss a few insane people into their ranks, but it is rare.

The whole rebel approach on shaping is why shapers worldwide go with "thats why shaper laws exist! Not for avarice but to avoid stuff like this! Look at the horrors of the rebelion. Us shapers follow rules. We would never have created the unbound if our lives depended on it. Tsk tsk geneforged people are abomination all power no control. Us the shaper master race go through years of training decades even to get the right to that power. The rebellion's existence is an exercise in futility as it proves the righteousness of the shapers"

 

Annnnnnd they are right on those points.

The closest to unbound they have made were drayks. Which they barred because they were too difficult/impossible to control, as such born rogue.

And yes there are people that took few canisters. But while shaper training conditions you to resist it(as evidenced by dinwanya) rebel training conditions you to seek them out and love and revere them. Like i said, sane shapers are the law sane lifecrafters are the exception.

Of course an insane shaper tends to do way more damage than an insane lifecrafter. Probably due to the means available.

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When I took my first canister (or used the GForge, not sure) I got a text saying that now I see the world more or less like Shapers do; that people are background noise to their greatness. That's insanity. Sure you can say that Alwan is driven and stubborn. I say he's insane. You can say that general Crowly or whatever-he's-called is part bully and part too naïve to trust a geneforged guy after they killed all his friends. I say he's insane. You can say that weirdo Shaper that actually SHAPES the player in Crowly's fort in the Aziraph is just weird. I call her insane.

How about that Shaper working for Alwan in GF5, that when told to desing AGAIN a Control Core, after the previous one fell prey to rogue minds, didn't tell Alwan "With all respect councilor, you're mad."

How about that idiot working for Alwan, again in CCB that made a mind that could actually SHAPE instead of just four minds that could just control creations? Madman.

etc

 

 

The Shapers miss the point that if they were not such obnoxious, pompous, tyrannical, genocidal, enslaving buttholes there would be no rebellion, hence no Unbound. The "Great Rebellion" was not the first and if it failed, it would not be the last.

Unbound were not nice. They were mad engines of destruction that would kill everything. Well, that's compared to the Shapers and their armies that were not-mad engines of destruction, leveling rebel cities with corpses piling up.

Sure, Shapers love to claim the horrors of the Unbound ... when Taygen was working on a doomsday device that obliterated civilization as everyone knew it. Even living tools die, so I would assume the living doors also died.

In GF3, one of my first quests were to heal someone that was suffering from a Shaper-made disease, made centuries before the Rebellion. So, Taygen was not the only madman working on diseases.

 

 

Shaper law exists for a reason, but that reason is to make sure power remains in the hands of Shapers. To ensure that they would collectively abuse common people and creations, without someone taking over them, they put the rule about self shaping so that no Rawals could take over the council by shaping themselves to Godhood like Ghaldring did (and came to dominate the rebellion).

 

 

 

And without spoiling the endings of GF5, about the irresponsible dash to power of the rebels during the war: I would like to draw your attention to what happens if the Rebels win, when their survival is no longer at stake.

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Alhoon you've reached your final form!

You just made insanity subjective to win the argument! High five! Im impressed by your devotion to the cause.

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Tru but in that case, tirany, power,abuse, obnoxiousness, pomposity, genocide, slavery, stubbornness, drive, determination, bullying, naïveté, shaper, rebelion, geneforge, canisters, doomsday devices, diseases, even life itself. Everything can be subjective, but for sake of argument and society we place set limits on deviation from the meaning. Were those not there, anyone could be committed or arrested because crime would be subjective as well.

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True enough... but let's go back to Litalia. I think it's beyond doubt that she's insane and dangerous. Whether she's a good leader or not... or whether her mass murdering sprees were justified, is cause for debate.

 

PS. I'm not 100% with the rebels. In GF3, the way the game is shaping up, I may side with the Shapers. Similar to GF4, the "enemy" killed my friends and tries to bully me to join. I sympathize with the rebellion, but I also sympathize with the tons of people in the Ashen islands that are targeted by the rebels.

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PS. I'm not 100% with the rebels. In GF3, the way the game is shaping up, I may side with the Shapers. Similar to GF4, the "enemy" killed my friends and tries to bully me to join. I sympathize with the rebellion, but I also sympathize with the tons of people in the Ashen islands that are targeted by the rebels.

 

You are seeing the evil, the darkness. Purge the rebel.

 

Keep going further back into the bowels of history. Geneforge 2, geneforge 1. The 'rebels' are worse there even if they go by a different name.

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Idk i found myself too busy hating on lankan and master hoge and some other ppl on g3 to dislike her. By g4 she was acceptable.

 

And so it begins Alhoon's conversion arc. I'll later make a small cartoon on it.

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Shaper Hoge is (by 2nd island that I am) the default traitor. Nothing special. Lankan is on the right side although he has a slight anger issue problem and I'll be glad to help him. I already found his canister and I plan to give it to him.

To get back on topic: I plan to give Lankan the canister made by Litalia so that Lankan could defeat the monsters Litalia keeps making. Lankan is the best choice for the island; Dubi-whatever is ... not really bad but he's clearly on the losing side.

 

Tell me that's not crazy: "Hi buddy. I am the one making the monsters that kill your friends. I will keep making the monsters but I'll make you powerful enough to survive their attacks. No, it may be easier to STOP sending monsters to kill you, but I prefer to keep at it and just spend tons of purified essence to make you able to survive my attacks."

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Lankan doesn't want a solution. That is what turned me off him. To be fair though you really don't have that information until you've played through all the alternatives across a number of different attempts at the game.

 

What wins me over to Diyawania is what happens if you kill Lankan and make his problem 'disappear'. He gets seriously pissed at you for doing the wrong thing. Diya is trying to hold the island together. He lacks the power to stop everything and so is working his best to keep the situation under control and his people protected. That involves keeping them from going out into the swamps and his methods are poorly communicated (combined with the lay persons assumption that shapers are all-powerful) and so there is resentment building at what they see as inaction.

 

In the end though he has no desire to assault and destroy the 'rebels' with Lankan and is seeking a peaceful resolution. Lankan doesn't want that resolution due to pride and what appears to be a distinct lack of insight and awareness.

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Really? Diya is the least bad Shaper I've met then. Well, perhaps with the exception of the nice Shaper in GF5 that makes turrets.

However, when I did.. something, I forget what, to diffuse the situation, Diyawania starts shouting and gets very angry. Are you sure if Lankan is killed that Diya is angered because you did the bad thing and not because you lit a cigar over a gas tank?

And in any case, I'm right now angry with Diya cause some of his Fyoras killed me yesterday. Out of the blue. I open a door in his basement and get pawned by some weird Fyoras.

 

I really wish there was a path that I could choose to FORCE these two to work together.

Is Diya a kind of "faction" where you can go and take quests after the island is dealt with etc? Or he's there for that island and you can't inform him of what happens further down? I'm pretty sure the big Shaper in the big island will be more Alwan-ish and less Astoria-ish.

 

 

I vote for Diyawania for the Council. He could work with Astoria to restore peace.

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Lankan is not on the winning side. Dinwanya can barely hold a few areas but he is doing better than the rebels which depend on litalia's very little and unreliable support. That being said just because lankan is unwilling to compromise(unlike dinwanya despite what he says) makes me completely off him. He is more arrogant than the shaper. With less reason to be. And more willing to sacrifice the lives of his subjects than dinwanya(who is not begging for validation, simply asking you to solve the rogue problem unlike lankan who says let the rogues be just gimme power) im sorry but in g3 litalia makes a more convincing argument to join the rebels than lankan.

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To my knowledge the first two islands have virtually no effect on the game. They seem to be part of the build up towards making the real choices form island 3 and onwards. I'll be honest and say that I've only completed the game once and the second half of the game is a blur but I've done those first 2 islands extensively while testing different builds.

 

How is G3 going? Do you have either of the two party members tagging along with you? I remember in my early plays I'd basically chosen a side and didn't have the other npc join me. However, it can give you some great insight to have them both tag along. There are a number of points where each one can speak out and sometimes they speak to each other if you have both. Worthwhile watching the growth and change in each character. (if only I'd known how important they would turn out to be in later games)

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G3 is not going very well. My latest attempt to play it was cut short by a rage-quit once Dubi-? Fyoras killed me.

 

Owen respectfully, I disagree. Lankan was forced to exile because of one grave mistake. He was charismatic so the "sub-shaper", misused and mistreated herb gatherers went with him once the situation turned bad. Why? Because the Shapers were proven to be vulnerable and they were despised by many people.

And there's also the other thing that I heard in a tavern: Whatever Shapers think, the "bargain" is that Shapers keep people safe and prosperous and the people in return serve the Shapers. Monsters running around and Shapers saying "oh, that's beyond my power!" = "and why the heck should we tolerate your pompous attitude and bow down to you?"

The Shaper answer to that seems to be (GF4-5) "because if you don't, we will kill you horribly". Not exactly the reply to inspire loyalty.

 

Again, we come to this: If Shapers weren't Tyrannical, there would be no rebellion. Lankan's friends wouldn't jump to the first opportunity, the first sign of vulnerability to abandon the evil magocracy. They would not prefer to sit in a swamp getting eaten by monsters than go back to the Shapers. And I accuse the Shapers for fermenting such disloyalty.

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Dinwanya(im sure im misspelling) wasn't bent on "killing horribly". The rogues were created by litalia. And even so he did the best he could to keep the people safe. He also forbade the gatherers to continue their trade exactly with mind to keep them safe. Like what you say is true in most cases but this specific you are generalising shapers into that kid. He did his best. And in all honesty seems to have had potential to become one of the good non tyranical shapers in different situations. But i'll let it rest. In this case what i do is ask you to one; read the shaper's notes on his basement. And two having previously saved the game. Refuse to give the canister to lankan when you're on your way back. Otherwise i hope you enjoy the game. It is the ugly duckling of the geneforge series. The previous ones are much better. But this is fun.

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Yes, Dubi-? is the exception although he still acts superior and pompous. I don't accuse Diwaniya for setting Harmony island on fire more or less. Litalia did that on her own.

I accuse the Shapers for fermenting such disloyalty that people would prefer to sit in the mud and get eaten by monsters and I accuse Diwaniya for not doing a better job before the rebellion broke out to build bridges and for failing to communicate to the people his not omnipotent, and that they could and should stick with the Shapers cause the alternative is worse.

Thinking on it, Greta hasn't said anything bad about Diwaniya although she seems to like Lankan.

 

 

EDIT: gave the canister to Lankan. Diwaniya, with extreme ease, wiped me out for the betrayal. So he showed enough strength to do something about the rogues, and not enough control to allow me to explain why I did what I did. He considers the act, rightly, a gross betrayal. But he just attacked and wiped the floor with me and my creations. Alwan and Greta were killed in the first blast, two guards killed one of my vlish and... one of the three alphas in the room killed me. There were more guards, alphas and Ghaalks. He could do more than just whine, even if it was to go up and kill the rebels. Or send those Alphas and Ghaalks he hoards to keep the roads clean.

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Lolz. U using gameplay here for argument. In any case he can protect his city. He can't do better than that. Tbh please sidetrack the game. Save this one and try to do his quest. To see what he's up against. Did you try refusing to give the canister to lankan?

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I already mentioned Lankan has anger issues didn't I? :)

I also mentioned I'm biased; hence I don't mention everything bad the rebels do...

 

But Lankan was more convincing in his anger. "You couldn't let us have hope" speech as he sees the only means he could use to fight back against the Shaper Tyranny evaporate was touching. It would STILL be asymmetric warfare; One guy able to throw fire-bolts wouldn't be enough to win against the massive force Diwaniya has hoarded in his home*. But it would give them hope, access to secrets and powers the Shapers decided they were not for them.

And yes, it's just firebolt. Come on, is turning someone to a sentient fyora THAT bad?

 

Though, I wonder how Alwan didn't attack me when I gave the canister to Lankan. I kinda felt as betraying everything in one grand motion of disobedience when I gave him the canister. No, turning someone to a sentient Fyora is not that bad. It is a grand betrayal though. And empowering people that align with those that killed my friends.

I am not ready to do that. Not yet. I think I won't give him the canister. The rebels haven't won me over yet. But I won't destroy the canister either.

 

*But I plan to take care of that for him. I am deeply against Diwaniya, even though he's not the worse the Shapers have shown.

He's far from the visionary you portray him to be though; he's totally committed to the status quo and holding to the threads of his power in a world that is changing.

 

Lolz. U using gameplay here for argument. In any case he can protect his city. He can't do better than that. Tbh please sidetrack the game. Save this one and try to do his quest. To see what he's up against. Did you try refusing to give the canister to lankan?

That's what I plan to do Owen. The "official" one will be me not giving Lankan's canister till I'm sure I'll go with the rebels. Which at the time, I'm not cause as I said it feels like a betrayal in this game, and Litalia killed my friends.

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Alright like i said before ill let it drop. Still. Have fun doing litalia's dirty work rebel abomination scum >.> jk. update me when you do his side.

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It is so odd with you playing the games in reverse. You are watching society stitch itself back together (rather than slowly unravel) but you have the knowledge of what happens later on to cloud your judgement. Or I suppose to give you a unique perspective. It's just so odd, the first genuine shaper you've encountered happens to be one of the weakest most pathetic shapers in the entire series. He is also the one responsible for trying to win you away from the rebel cause.

 

Either way, you mentioned the social contract where the shapers protect and the people serve in exchange for that protection. There are times though when resources are stretched thin. This happens in our own world during times of war, natural disasters, etc. Now imagine a massive act of terrorism in the real world, an act unprecedented and in a location inadequately prepared to defend and isolated enough that it might well take weeks or months to get a message to the authorities and get them to bring back up. It is not unreasonable that the authorities might lose a bit of local power but in the interest of controlling the situation and avoid mass riots, death, starvation, etc. they try and prevent the situation getting worse until backup arrives. This is how I view Diyawania. Despite all his flaws he is maintaining the situation as is his job and as is the law.

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He could not have put dozens of mines in his lab... ;)

 

And "the first genuine shaper you've encountered happens to be one of the weakest most pathetic shapers in the entire series. "

Do you mean Diyawania? Cause he's by far NOT weak. I will, obviously, clean his island and yet he wipes me out without a second thought.

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Sorry I drop in so late in conversation; I was writing a very long post about Lilitalia, but I accidently tabulatored my text away and I didn't want to write it all again.

Even less so since it seems we share generally the same opinion when it comes to Litalia.

 

But, Alhoon, you seem to be a hard-core Rebel, why?

I mentioned in another thread that I compare myself to Don Deroceras (

) when it comes to my allegiance in Geneforge. I rarely expressed allegiance to any faction because I found none had acceptable goals.

I did like Don Deroceras does, occasionally scratching someone's back with the intention to gain wealth and influence.

It was only a few playthroughs later (I must have played through the entire series 4 times by now) until I could honestly fight for the Shapers,

with the intention to bring power back to them.

Yes, the Shapers have flaws, and yes, even their strict rules sometimes don't seem strict enough, but that isn't a flaw of the Shapers.

It's in the universe's nature that, no matter how tight you build the mesh, one mosquito will always find it's way through. And, to be honest, not so many mosquitos found their way through the Shaper's mesh.

Many would state otherwise, but this is only an illusion created by the harm one such mosquito can do.

 

Let's draw the analogy to aviation; many proclaim that aviation is in fact an unsafe means of transportation, because of the existance

of many more air-crash reports than reports of any other kind of crash.

But this is merely an illusion created by the media. Air-crashes are rare, very rare, so when a disaster occurs in aviation, it will reach the front page and everyone will get to know about it, while the thousands of car-accidents that occured globally last month will be disappear into oblivion.

On top of that, aviational disasters are natural to attract more attention than any other kind of crash because they are more spectacular and involve more fire and explosions.

Also, don't think that air-crashes are more gruesome than any other kind of crash. They are more lethal yes, but in other crashes chances are bigger that you end up limbless in a bed for the rest of your life.

In the end, aviation has by and large the lowest casualty-rate and remains the safest means of transportation by far.

The same goes for a disaster in Shaping. There are a couple of known disasters in Shaping, true, but chances that a Shaper goes rogue

and starts creating uncontrolled creations en-masse are relatively small. It's the nature of Shaping-disasters (rarity, spectacularity, ...)

that causes Shaping to seem dangerous and Shapers to be incompetent because of the occurance of disasters despite harsh precaution.

 

Another misconception about Shapers is that they're heartless, amoral and apathic.

This isn't true, and if you're able to look futher than your nose is long you'll realize this.

Shapers have no patience at all for misplaced empathy, which makes them seem apathic. Rebels have a much easier, tolerant sense of empathy but they seem to lack the more applied, advanced forms. Rebels tend to express empathy more frequently than Shapers do, but Shaper empathy runs deeper than the rebel equivalent.

Also, Shapers try their best to keep a precarious balance between practical accessibility of the Shaping arts, sentimentality and juridical restrictions while rebels attempt to concoct an unrealistic amalgamation of the three.

To draw another analogy to aviation, it is impossible to make an aircraft that is as safe, fast and comfortable as a plane could possibly be.

Aircraft manufacturers have to keep a precarious balance between those three, making compromises on all sides and adapt to diffirent situations (e.g. by investing more in safety and comfort when constructing a commercial plane).

But this is where the rebels fail; they're trying to build an aircraft that can't fly. The Rebellion has (or on some points, had) mostly good general intentions, but they're unrealistic and short-sighted while the Shapers see the bigger picture.

 

Many fans on these forums have compared the situation in Geneforge to the American Civil War and even World War II, but I see more simularities with the French Revolution. And I fear that, if the Rebels win the war, the result will be worse than the initial situation. I fear that the Rebels will sacrifice the wealth and safety the Shapers brought upon Terrestia for empathy and morals that can't be realized because of lacking prosperity. The Shapers aren't perfect, no, nobody is always perfect but the Rebellion will do more harm in the long run.

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OK, there's a lot to answer here, but I'll tackle it in a short and incomplete way that would hopefully still give answers.

 

Yes, I agree that geneforge is close to the French\American Revolution because it is, after all, a revolution. On the other hand, both these bloody revolutions created instability in the short term and see how much better the world is now compared to the 18th century. I.e. Contrary to your statement, I think the long-term effects of the Rebellion would offset the bad.

 

 

On Shapers: I respectfully disagree with you. They don't seem apathetic, they are apathetic and increadibly snobbish towards outsiders. That is IMO prevalent in all GF games I've played. Alwan even defends that stance of "screw the Outsiders".

 

 

On the rebellion's short-sightness: Again, I disagree. The world the rebels eventually plan to build (not Ghaldring, ALL the rebellion: Serviles, Drayks, Humans and Drakons) may be attainable or not. I actually believe it is attainable to be egalitarian while using Shaping and allow other races to exist in the world of geneforge and I don't see why you say it's not.

On the other hand, the world of the Shapers is doomed to perish. If not in that rebellion, then the next. It is unattainable to think no Shaper would ever make a race that can Shape + keeping whole species as slaves + keeping normal humans under the boot preventing them to reach their ambitions. Something will crack again and a new rebellion will start.

If the humans were kept more primitive, having too much trouble simply surviving, then perhaps you could extend it. But as the increased prosperity of the renaissance brought increasing pressure to the ruling elites, so it would in Terrestia. Humans with few problems would realize that enslaving serviles is morally wrong. That 5 cryodrayks living on a mountaintop without messing with anyone don't deserve to die just because they're too hard to be kept enslaved. That humans should have a greater word on their destiny.

And that would lead to rebellion.

 

 

On why I support the (real) rebellion: Because I support egalitarianism. I don't think Drayks and Drakons are abominations that should die for the crime of being individuals and not puppets. I don't think serviles should be kept uneducated and created stupid (like the one Litalia made). I find it cruel to burn serviles to death as they beg for their lives, condemning them to such fate because a Shaper lost control of the puppet-strings (as Litalia did before joining the rebellion). I think Shapers are too tyrannical and too power-hoarding.

 

Ghaldring's faction is barely better than the Shapers; they want to replace them with Drakons (i.e. Ghaldring) creating more or less most of the same problems. But at least, they don't want to destroy humans and drayks and serviles.

And no, that's not good enough for me. I'm not fighting just so that everyone would have the right to exist, period, while serving reptilian masters instead of robed masters. But the alternative, the status quo, is IMO evidently worse.

 

 

WHAT I WANT: The not-so-strange ideal is more like Astoria's\Greta's faction: A modicum of control on who can Shape, restriction (not outright ban) to self-shaping, egalitarianism and more open government.

Add to that a supervising agency and we're good.

Even better: Abolish the magocracy. Shapers\Drakons are not bosses. Drayks, serviles, non-shaping people have their say as Greta tries to accomplish in GF4 and GF5 and the drakons ignore her.

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Have you ever wondered what stops you from writing a document that states you are the all powerful authority and everyone should listen to what you say? The ability to enforce it.

 

In this world the 'magocracy' essentially exists because there are a bunch of people able to enforce the constitution/laws/whatever binds them together. Without some sort of power behind the government it wouldn't exist. And in a world where mages and shaping abilities exists you simply cannot divorce that from power. Either they need to be in control or someone who controls and wields them needs to be in control. Short of another power (like guns) existing there is no way to separate out the magocracy part of it.

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The guns aren't needed. Till you killed them, Batons were a better choice. :p

 

Well, the Rebellion was listening to the non-shapers more and was promoting more of then to Shaper-dom. The Drakons first with the Shapers close second were far from "Shapers first" although they were hiding it. Both have evolved to "Only we matter but we tolerate the rest". In the past the Shapers were trying to cure people, developed the living tools, ornks, resistant plants, doors-that-open, machinery etc etc.

You all have seen the foundry; these days 1/100 Shapers seems to be working on something beneficial. And before someone says "that's the war!" I remind you that in all the mines, abandoned labs etc there is very little innovation showing. We have reason to believe that the "technological advancement" under the Shapers was moving with glacial speeds at these times.

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Ahhh now i have lots of opinions to share.

In short. (Its actually long)

Not necessarily the long term effects of the rebelion might as well be the installation of another magocracy. The drakons are definitely more powerful than the human part as evidenced by g4. Obviously less scrpulous in unleashing destruction.

So maybe pararel to the Bolshevik revolution. It started with good intentions. It won, even if for a period they stayed true to their goals (during Lenin's rule) it quickly gave rise to Stalin who undid the little good the revolution had managed and ruled with a tighter iron grip than both the church and the tsars together.( Tru he has advanced society in terms of tech and stuff but a great price) not even the politburo dared move against him and the people didn't either. For all the atrocities he has committed everyone decided it was better and easier to wait until he dies. And up to date his rule has had bad repercussions. For all efforts the future leaders weren't able to fully erase his influence. And they tried. That to say taking power by force requires use of force to stabilise rule. And further to avoid dissent. It sets a bad precedent and centralises power. And its flipping the coin on who end up with that power weather its a worthy being or not.

Mind that humans had support of drakons to rebel against the shapers. Whose support would they have against the drakons?

 

On shapers. They SEEM apathetic. They need to create distance from the people and emanate control and authority. That is what kept them in power. Sure creating life is badass but the public needs to revere them and trust them. You can't really trust your life to someone who will get drunk with you and carouse the barmaids. You can't trust the person to have that power either. Some get used to bossing people around and seeing them as tools. But a lot of them still keep their humanity. Taygen gets an outsider girlfriend. A lots of the shapers care about people. Dinwanya himself gave room for the general to give suggestions or even make decisions. He was to let the blacksmith use an enchanted forge. He let lankan in close and long enough to get punched by him. Even looks to you for support. Shaper Donnel tries to heal your mind from the effects of canister abuse. Miranda is very human and straight forward with you. A lot of shapers have a love for teaching. Becoming a shaper is a possibility to any outsider that can take it.(i think to any mage and any outsider can learn magic.)

 

And i agree with you that the shaper system is doomed. Creating intelligence without expecting independence is unrealistic. Expecting unconditional obedience is unrealistic. Creating a life form that is basically slave labour is just plain wrong.(draws a paralel with the geth in mass effect).

And killing anything that doesn't fit those requisites is definitely not ok. A bad and dumb idea.

 

Thats not to say however that the shaper laws arent wise. Short sighted a bit. But for instance im going to become a genetic engineer. That area is tuled by tight laws and ethics. The simplest example i can give is plants. You create a gm plant, when you do you should make sure it is a sterile plant first and foremost. Why? Because if the polen or the plant escapes to the biosphere it can set out an unpredictable chain of events and drastically change the native flora etc etc... And its a simple plant and thats one of the most basic rules. They exist for a reason. And its not just to hoard power. It is to limit the potentially destructive effects of shaping. You talked about burrowing mold from geneforge 3 created by a shaper. But its a shaper that broke those laws and got swiftly punished for it. They enforce their laws on their own sect. And if such tightly controlled knowledge is still misused by people well trained on it imagine if they let just anyone on it. Well you get stuff like taygen's puruty agent. Shredbugs, spawners, creators, unbound etc... And that is deliberate misuse of shaper arts for belic reasons. A geneforged person can have in them the innate power to relesse even deadlier diseases. Shaper laws exist for a reason. Shaping arts should be horaded and very few should have access to them.

 

And true. Drayks and drakons should be able to live. But are they to be ruked by the same laws as humans? As shapers? Are they to be left to their own devices? Specially with the power they have?

Are eyebeasts and gazers to also be allowed to exist?

On the serviles i agree completely. Why i in a lot of games choose a rebel ending.

 

Self shaping should be banned to. The idea that the power should be earned and learned not just given is very wise. Actually let me draw the pararel to humans again. Self shaping is really close to the concept of eugenics, which is also forbidden by international law. Because among others it gives room and excuse for ethnic supremacists. Create a discriminatory system based on how "advanced" a person is. Research for such things require human experiments. Which are for one illegal for that matter since the results can be horrendous. And success on it has unpredictable repercussions. Defending self shaping is wrong. For once i do mind strongly if you don't change your mind on that. Excluding the obviously seen effects of canisters all the other reasons should be enough for you to stand against it. I really ask you read more on the subject and its impact on society.

 

Egalitarianism is the base idea of communism. No social stratification. Equal opportunity. Working together to grow together. All that.. Beautiful ideals. But humans are selfish communism cannot exist. Not in a society where everyone feels the need to be better than the rest. Even with a more open and transparent government there would not be true equality. And the serviles themselves would have to struggle long to be seen as equals by humans. And that wouldn't happen completely.

 

Abolishing the magocracy as blxz was saying would be impossible unless you remove the magical powers including shapping from everyone. And even then magic would be replaced by something else, the people with better bigger and more swords would be in power. Or the people with more money. doesn't matter. Its how it works. There is no escaping it. There is always power backing authority. If there is no power or at least the illusion of it(preferably both). There is no authority.

 

EDIT: On tech advancement. There is always stagnation in technological advancement. Never a stop. But always stagnation. Changing the laws wouldn't stop that. They'd just stagnate slightly later when you're done with illegal research. Look at us now. No flying cars and space colonisation yet. Still going forward. Just slower than some 100 years earlier.

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Mind that humans had support of drakons to rebel against the shapers. Whose support would they have against the drakons?

Serviles and Drayks vs the exhausted by the fight Drakons. And as Blxz said...once you actually have mages you will have a magocracy. But at least a better one.

Sure, Ghaldring could have become a Stalin-like figure, but unlike Stalin, Greta and the Drayks are preparing to fight him since late GF4. At the time of the GF4-GF5 games it is more important to topple the Shapers than worry that Ghaldrin and a few Salassar-types would dominate the post-Shaper Era. With the Shapers out of the equation, there can be a future and if needed a new rebellion with Drayks, Serviles that can think for themselves and humans. In a Shaper victory there would be no Drayks, no independent serviles and the humans would have been broken.

It would take probably many failed rebellions against Shaper Tyranny to reach an opportunity for victory as good as it seems to be in GF5. Centuries of oppression.

 

 

On the wisdom of Shaper Laws: I agree and I also agree with most of the Shaper laws regarding to Shaping (except the one that creations that break away should be autokilled). It's the part of the Shaper law that considers them the ultimate bosses that can decide on whether someone (even humans to a degree) should exist or not that I can't stomach.

I would like to refer to the common-sense rule about he gm plants you mentioned: Is it there in your rules and ethos anything that says the guy making coffee for you in the cafeteria of the facility is supposed to jump when you say jump? Are you his ruler because you can design (responsibly) gm plants? I guess no and that the constitution of the area makes you equal in the eyes of the law.

 

That difference is why I hate the Shapers. With the rebels, it could be a better future or perhaps a worse one, but the existing situation has to go cause it's very difficult to make things worse than they are with the Shapers.

 

And its a simple plant and thats one of the most basic rules. They exist for a reason. And its not just to hoard power.
It's not at all to hoard power I think. The rules that are about "hoarding power" (i.e. money) in your field are, I think, the rules about industrial espionage so that you can't just move to a different company and give them all the nice stuff.

 

 

Dinwanya himself gave room for the general to give suggestions or even make decisions.
Diya's general had to work behind his back for one of the most reasonable ideas that could have restored peace. That someone just fresh out of the lab, and young, would just allow his general to make a few suggestions and not vice versa (i.e. the general running things and Diya being locked in his lab making things and offering suggestions) is part of the problem. Who the heck was Diya, to be made responsible of a colony under attack? The so-responsible-Shaper law, should have a clause that junior governing shapers surrender authority if their place is under attack to veterans, even if they are outsiders.

Remember Rockfall in GF5? With the Outsider in command and Shapers dropping by, making creations and leaving, allowing an actual military man, not a book-worm, to command the situation? That kind of thing.

 

Drayks, Drakons, Gazers: All sentient creations must be set free and allowed to exist. If some of them go anti-social... well, that's what Guardians\Warriors and Agents\infiltrators are for.

 

 

And i agree with you that the shaper system is doomed. Creating intelligence without expecting independence is unrealistic. Expecting unconditional obedience is unrealistic. Creating a life form that is basically slave labour is just plain wrong.

And killing anything that doesn't fit those requisites is definitely not ok. A bad and dumb idea.

Well, Blxz can tell you more about it, but from what I've seen from his game, Taygen (that seems to agree with the first part of what you said but not the other two) proves that it is an immoral but working idea. He succeeds.

If the Shapers refrain from making intelligent life again, and stop at stupid semi-sentient alphas along with a small number of dumb serviles (the kind Litalia makes) they can at least not have to worry about intelligence leading to independence.

 

 

They need to create distance from the people and emanate control and authority. That is what kept them in power.

If what keeps them in power is not their wise use of this power, the need to lose their power.

Which is what I work for. ;)

 

PS. I actually disagree that the appearance of control kept them in power. While appearances helped, it is mainly their cruel, cold and uncompromising evisceration of anyone that remotely disagrees with them* that held them in power coupled with their magical abilities and an unending pool of Battle Alphas.

* I would remind you the fate of captured Trakovites in GF4 and the multitude of whipping tools in their settlements and forts. Alwan especially seems a bit too fond to have his soldiers tied to posts and whipped for any discipline infraction. I would love to see you Shaper-buddies defend torture and locking people in cages to die of starvation for suspected harboring of weird ideas.

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We can all agree that there is no example of a two in a row revolution. And that humans, drayks and serviles would be as exhausted as the drakons by the end of the war(if not more as most fighting was done by them while drakons hid and did magic shappy things in the labs)

 

No because genetic engineers didn't create international law or any constitution. UN and governments are the ones with power. And both can pretty much have cafeteria guys jump when they say jump. If it were us to create the laws and enforce them i don't think the justifications on why i hold the power matter as much as the fact that i do. But the shapers don't have power only because they can shape. They may have siezed it thanks to it. But they would n't have held it just for it.

 

True. Corporate espionage is a crime and most research facilities have a non disclosure clause. But the big difference here is companies do it solely due to intellectual property and money. And that sure is hoarding power. Unlike for instance me handing the nuclear weaponry research to the Syrian rebels. It is not about whats right or wrong or about money in this case. Its about preventing disaster that arises from irresponsible use of power. Much proven true as instead of doing helpful research the rebels are just wreaking havoc. And thats a very not in depth take on it. Same with the Syrian rebels. I don't doubt for a second they would use what they can to win. Weather their motivations are right or not doesn't matter. They shouldn't have access to it.

 

Your take that diya's general went against his back is contradictory to another take where you say

" it is mainly their cruel, cold and uncompromising evisceration of anyone that remotely disagrees with them" cause thats not even remotely. Thats straight up insubordination

Besides in geneforge 4 the shapers are at war. All countries have a clause for martial law which includes curfews and severe crackdown of human rights for the preservation of the state.

Also Diya was sent to harmony before the rogues. And having a shaper law asking a shaper to step down in favour of a more experienced comander would require the shapers to have been faced with a similar situation before. They haven't. The whole shaper army hasn't seen real war for millennia. So in this aspect a young shaper is as good as his general. That general was no veteran. Older yes. But this is the first time they are facing a situation if those.

 

Gazers are not sentient. They are insane. Weather they are simply sociopaths or psychopaths is to flip a coin. And more so that they view themselves above law. Any law. Without a law to govern them they should not exist. And i say the same for any human. In fact that is why death sentences exist.(and the general penal code)

 

 

If they are not intelligent they don't need independence. In truth they shouldn't have it as they can't take care of themselves. The plan in itself would be acceptable were it not fpr the fact that its preceded by a mass genocide of basically everything.

 

And the rebels are wiser in their use of power? Unless there is a viable alternative why overthrow something that works?

Finally rebels don't look any kinder on traitors. They lack the means and time to enforce it well but in no way are their intentions different.

 

That being said im glad part of what i said earlier got to you.

 

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We can all agree that there is no example of a two in a row revolution.
Eh, no. It's actually quite common for the victors of a rebellion to turn on each other. Since I don't want to turn it political, I'll refer historical examples since current civil wars actually affect people that may be in this forum or visit it in the future. Out of respect for them, I will try to stay out of anything 21st century.

 

Greek independence war: We had TWO civil wars while fighting the Turks on which side would govern Greece once we won, and the 2nd stopped mainly because we nearly lost the revolution.

Second Balkan war: OK, we nearly kicked the Turks out of the Balkans, who would own which part of the newly liberated Balkans? War.

Greek resistance against Nazi occupation: Rightwings and leftwings were more or less fighting among themselves from late 1943 and once the Germans left, we went to a full-blown civil war that lasted for extra 3 years.

 

Without googling it, I think the Irish did the same when fighting against the English in early 20s.

 

And that humans, drayks and serviles would be as exhausted as the drakons by the end of the war(if not more as most fighting was done by them while drakons hid and did magic shappy things in the labs)

It is actually the opposite. In the finale of GF4, the Drakons let the human side back to rebuild.

In GF5, there's Phyllida and Greta in the Drakon cities, both angry that the Drakons have them benched while they fight the Shapers mostly by themselves. Phyllida is very illuminating about that, saying that although she's a commander back in the human-side (half of Terrestia) she wanted action, not watch ornks grow so she asked to be transferred to the front.

On the contrary, Drakons have moved most of their equipment and numbers to the front lines, in the just-built Gazaki-Uss, which proves to be a grave mistake for them.

 

Thats straight up insubordination

And Alwan or Crowly would have had him tied in post and flogged for that. Taygen was abusing even his Guardian general. Rawal would have placed a control tool in him. Etc.

Diya-? is not cruel and tyrannical. The Shaper order is.

 

 

And having a shaper law asking a shaper to step down in favour of a more experienced comander would require the shapers to have been faced with a similar situation before. They haven't. The whole shaper army hasn't seen real war for millennia.

While not as bad, they had faced rebellions in the past (and tried to suppress knowledge of them) and they finished the conquest of Terrestia about a couple of centuries before GF5, since all the "wood people" forts are said to be about that old. And since those areas are next to their birthplace, they got Ilya and the other parts later.

Thinking of it... they haven't finished with the Forsaken lands of GF4 when the rebellion took it from them; sure they didn't have to conquer them since they were empty lands, but they haven't finished terra-forming them.

 

 

So in this aspect a young shaper is as good as his general. That general was no veteran. Older yes. But this is the first time they are facing a situation if those.

Hmmm... I have to admit you're absolutely right on that and I would even go as far as to say that a young shaper is BETTER than an outsider. The general is older and neither has faced enemy shapers. And Diya-? is at least a Shaper and has a better idea of what a Shaper could do. Both were unprepared.

Yes, I have to admit that although I don't like Dina-? he has more qualifications for being the commander in that situation (although he's a pompous whiner).

 

Gazers are not sentient. They are insane. Weather they are simply sociopaths or psychopaths is to flip a coin. And more so that they view themselves above law. Any law. Without a law to govern them they should not exist. And i say the same for any human.

I disagree that they are universally insane and harmful to society. I disagree that they see themselves above any law. I disagree that without a law to govern them they should not exist.

They are also awesome and I usually make several! How dare you sir, say that my favorite warriors should be put to death once they finish their term with me? I imagine my character keeping my Drakon and Thralls enslaved and releasing to freedom gazers and cryodrayks. (My end-game party is usually Cryodrayk, Drakon, Thrall, Gazer + extras)

 

 

And the rebels are wiser in their use of power? Unless there is a viable alternative why overthrow something that works?

 

O_O

Never said that. They are more willing to share governing power. They are far less tyrannical.

They are also grossly less wise in their use of Power. Sure, they didn't make the Purity agent or any disease but the Shredbugs are not too far behind + Unbound and of course, the most unwise use of power of them all: Geneforge. TOO much power that doesn't just corrupt as power tends to do...it also makes you less sane.

 

Finally rebels don't look any kinder on traitors. They lack the means and time to enforce it well but in no way are their intentions different.

 

Only Litalia spends any effort to go after Trakovites from the rebels and few enforce her wishes. The Drakons don't give a rat. Also "traitor" doesn't mean someone that says "perhaps Shaping is not so blessed after all. I think we should stop it. Just a personal opinion. Would you like something to drink?

They also deal with traitors less cruelly.

 

 

 

That being said im glad part of what i said earlier got to you.

Hmmm? Which part? I'm always willing to admit that the Rebels have tons of rotten eggs and they commit atrocities, and I'm always eager to overthrow the Shapers despite my allies being far from ideal.

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Eh, no. It's actually quite common for the victors of a rebellion to turn on each other. Since I don't want to turn it political, I'll refer historical examples.

 

 

I wss going to say its not the same. But well it is. Even the russian revolution(actually this one could be classified as 3 wars in a row/simultaneous, all short lived though) was like so. And South Sudan as well.

 

That being said there is a difference between a power struggle which is usually the cause for those things falling appart and an ideological one. They mix it up a lot of times but in general it comes down to who wants to be in power. In this case its not about power really. Its about ideology.

 

Edit: to avoid multiple posts ill let you wrap up your points first. Anyway people really really don't like war. Im not familiar with your examples but if im to bet, i would on those wars not having lasted long.

 

 

Alright i think you're done. So mainly. Tru some people have the will to go to war repeatedly. My experience with that first and second hand is people quickly settle for tyranny if it brings safety. But I overstepped when generalising.

 

Also right. I inconveniently forgot that. I was referring mostly to g4 on that. But on g5 the human rebels were engaging Astoria right? Their limited participation on the war was due to the truce. Still drakons are more powerful than either they single handedly saved the rebelion. As they created the unbound without human help.

 

 

Yeah. Shapers are very strict but they don't destroy people who remotely disagree. The mayor of dilame was merely moved to a closet.

 

The main difference on the previous rebelions drypeak not included is that they had no shaping. Mere humans even mages are easy to subjugate. Or how the saying goes a shaper is an army. What diya and current shapers were/are facing is fellow shapers and creations. All those rebelions barely had time to be spoken of. Also the whole geneforge timeline is iffy depending on what game you base it on. Using g1 as a base they haven't had a true war in millennia. But granted by g5 they do mention previous small scale rebelions.

 

Lolz. I'll never understand your dislike for him. He's like a younger brother to me. Much love.

 

 

Ok... They are awesome in battle. Also a fave of me(unlike vlish... Icky floating thingys) my final thing is cryodrayk rotgoth and gazer(kyshak too in the last ones). That being said srsly in 5 games i cant think of a single stable gazer. Its part of why i love them/fear them. So maybe a few are sane. But mostly... Nahh... Besides nothing should exist without laws to govern themselves like drayks and drakons could be governed under human law with certain cultural exceptions( mainly for instance the makonde tribe can cut ebony for cultural reasons while its illegal for anyone else to do it) some small concessions and limited autonomy. I don't see gazers accepting it. They keep to themselves mostly ya. But they are a danger to anyone that crosses paths with them. That will not do. I blame the shapers for the defective shaping of their minds. But still. They crazy.

 

No you didn't say that. But you did say: "If what keeps them in power is not their wise use of this power, the need to lose their power.

Which is what I work for. ;)" My questions were based on this.

 

And no, litalia is responsible for that and diplomatic relations. As well as greta. Both of which enforce the laws to remove dissent. I.e. trajkovites. And tech traitor also means that. Ghaldring has you try to kill litalia because she was a traitor.

They simply have no need to make examples. It isn't their authority thats being questioned.

 

Mostly on the shaper laws being wise and not just hoarding. Cept the genocidal ones.

 

To be fair i am not pro shaper. I just don't like the leadership the rebels have. And their methods. Ideally were shapers more lenient and open minded it would be best. Like what Astoria is trying. Im just sad it took a war of that scale to open her eyes.

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Im not familiar with your examples but if im to bet, i would on those wars not having lasted long.
They lasted for many years. I would also like to say that people really, really like war, when it's others losing sons. I.e. the people that make the decisions, the people that have less to lose and the people that stand to gain more (usually the very same group) are pro-war. Hence, Humanity has been in constant warfare until... 70 years ago.

 

 

As they created the unbound without human help.
Litalia and the player help them create the Unbound and Greta helps defending them. The Canister junky, Jarred, also helps make the Unbound. Man, how I wanted to kill that guy...

Anyway, yes, the Drakons are more powerful than the rest of the rebellion. However, they're arrogant. The Shapers were more powerful than the rebellion initially, and lost tons of land.

 

In this case its not about power really. Its about ideology.
It is more about power IMO. And the part about ideology? That's because the ideology is who would have the power.

Shapers - Drakons - The real rebellion, all three sides fight for power. And within the Drakons... they fight for power (and to get rid of Scottish drakons) constantly. To the point that each time I meet Ghaldring, I have to kill some of his competitors.

 

Ghaldring has you try to kill litalia because she was a traitor.

No, he does not. The Drakon in the lab tries to get Litalia killed and tells you to keep it a secret cause Ghadring nearly killed this Drakon when she suggested it.

And to return to Litalia, actually that's a spoiler, nevermind.

Greta harbors Trakovites in GF5 and the rebels, after Litalia left the rebellion largerly leave the Trakovites be, as we learn from a Trakovite in a city.

 

To be fair i am not pro shaper. I just don't like the leadership the rebels have. And their methods. Ideally were shapers more lenient and open minded it would be best. Like what Astoria is trying. Im just sad it took a war of that scale to open her eyes.

 

So... after pages of discussion that could be full essays, you tell me we mostly agree (with the exception I like Greta and Mekhen the Servile boss).

Well played sir, well played.

 

Yeah. Shapers are very strict but they don't destroy people who remotely disagree. The mayor of dilame was merely moved to a closet.

He didn't disagree. Alwan just wanted his office, so he was just kicked in a closet cause who-the-heck-cares-about-the-outsider-boss.

The Trakovite corpses in the cages, these belonged to people that remotely disagreed. Or to people that gave them a little food in secret.

 

 

The main difference on the previous rebelions drypeak not included is that they had no shaping. Mere humans even mages are easy to subjugate.

We don't know that. In fact, there's enough evidence in barred locations of Shapers that not only ignored orders, but turned against the Order. So, it's reasonable to assume that 2-3 snubbed\exiled Shapers would have started a rebellion at some point, perhaps even taking students illegally.

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Tru. I don't get how though. It is not a nice experience not being sure about the future and all most of all that. You don't know what to look forward to and you can't plan for anything. And it does craps to the economy. working is pointless. ehhh lets just say war is stupid and again. in my experience people settle for tyranny if it gives stability.

 

The unbound were developed by the drakons in secret. human participation was a diplomatic token. They were not needed. And only had a role in the very last part of it.

And true, arrogance brought the shapers down. But surprise, complacency and the limitations of their own laws too. Drakons wouldn't be too surprised and they have no laws. If anything they can shape themselves further into stronger even more powerful beings. Im not saying humans have no chance. Just saying it wpuld drag out for very very very long. And with new unbound shredbugs and diseases roaming the victor will be king of a sewage.

 

I don't think the human rebels care much about who stays in power. So long as its fair and not autocratic. Drakons do care about who stays in power. But like i said. The war take wasn't my best argument. After all it doesn't really matter why they fight. But that they do.

 

 

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Sane Gazers: There is one in GF4 that guards the passage to Burnwood. There's also a couple sane ones in GF5 that are lightly pro-rebel. They took claim of some land, and don't bother anyone except to harass Shapers One is Taliss-? in the big fort, that has mind-wiped the commander. The other... the other controls some forces against the Shapers in the passage to the big Shaper capital and attacks on sight. Yes, he counts as sane; he has a job to do, and does it.

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Ah... I see you haven't seen all the endings of GF5.

I actually have just its tricky not to spoil to blxz so im arguing on the possibility not canon.

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Well, let's say that I have predicted the outcome of the spoily one. ;) From what several people (humans, serviles and Drayks) say in GF4 and GF5 it wasn't hard to predict.

The first blows are done within GF5. Remember that weirdo servile that has a control tool? Foot-racer? She's loyal to Ghaldring and would allow me to pass. Guess what I did in order to help Phyllida of the human side.

 

 

EDIT: Changed the spoily part so could you remove it from your quote?

Owenmoz likes this

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