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What do you think of Litalia?


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Unbound Servile Unbound Servile

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 01:13 AM #1 What do you think of Litalia?

The Geneforge series have many interesting characters. One of them is Litalia.

Madman, realist, psychopath, revolutionary ... she's been given many names and opinions about her vary greatly and this is perhaps what's the most interesting about her.
Are you drawn towards her charisma or are you aversed by her extremist measures?
Are you intrigued by her ever-evolving personallity and moral standing or do you discard her as a dubble-dealing backstabber?

What do YOU think of Litalia? Be it concise, elongated or just TL;DR-sized ... it doesn't matter, share your opinion!
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Blxz Blxz

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 03:50 AM #2 What do you think of Litalia?

She attacked my character and by extension me personally. I have a deep grudge that resulted in me releasing a virus that killed every single creation.

Blame Litalia.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 05:10 AM #3 What do you think of Litalia?

Madwoman, psychopath, mass murderer that was more interested in killing than holding a set of principles. Her personality doesn't really evolve, the side in the name of which she commits every atrocity imaginable changes.
Killed kids with her own hands? She did it. Used terror as a weapon? She did it. Genocide? She did it (three times, two of which on her previous allies). Bioterrorism? She did it. Betray allies? She did it.
I'm pretty sure she had a thing for Ghaldring from what I saw in the finale of GF5.

I totally consider her the best character of the series, but she's a psychotic madwoman.


Blxz, I consider the Trakovite path of GF5 the most interesting.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 09:21 AM #4 What do you think of Litalia?

She's a zealot. Fanatical and crazed.

Truly idealised in her aim for the course of the Shaper world, she's the epitome of "my way or the highway"

R.I.P
Bist unto wo, juioul unto wo.
Lament the soul yet pity thyself, for when what heeds reckoning unfolds upon men brings but a falseness in thought and an err in thy ways.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 01:48 PM #5 What do you think of Litalia?

True but you leave aside the fact that she has changed the set of principle's she was fanatical of three times.
It is "my current way or the high way and that includes people I worked with and trained in my previous ways"
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 06:54 PM #6 What do you think of Litalia?

Litalia isn't mad. Fervent and unscrupulous, sure. Overzealous, definitely. But she's interesting in her ability to recognize when her fanaticism is in the wrong and pick a new perspective for over-investment. And she's never really crazy. She'd be a lot less scary if she were just psychotic, but she's not. She's rational and willing to do what it takes to win.

—Alorael, who appreciates her being the same person while evolving her views. And he's pretty sure that in the era after G5, in almost any ending, there are going to be scattered people (mis)remembering her and borrowing her name. One day it'll be the Litalans who are the bloodthirsty dissent from the ruling regime and main opposition.

Owenmoz Owenmoz

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 11:12 AM #7 What do you think of Litalia?

Litalia was simply an extremist. Granted. Logically in a world built on tiranies extremism is the easiest/fastest way to achieve goals. The fact that it doesn't gall her be a harbinger and catalyst of destruction sugests she's a sociopath. The fact that she doesn't necessarily enjoy her actions erase the possibility of her being crazy/psychopath. In general i think she's just a rebel without a cause and overly determined in her short term goals as a way to avoid thinking about the long term ones

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 01:49 PM #8 What do you think of Litalia?

From Barry Goldwater:

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!"

"Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. And let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed."

Sounds quite like her in how she acts and what she was trying to impose even as her idea of good changes.
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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 02:07 PM #9 What do you think of Litalia?

Quote

The fact that she doesn't necessarily enjoy her actions erase the possibility of her being crazy/psychopath.
Yes, but she totally enjoys her action. She says so in every game. In GF5, describing her history, she says the mass murders in the Ashen Islands were the best years of her life. In GF4, she's very proud about the extremist plan to wipe out every Shaper life and defends that the countless that would die in the fires are necessary. Despite what she claims in GF5, in GF4 she was 120% pro-Unbound, unlike Greta that was reluctant and last-line-of-defense mentality. Greta backed the Unbound because the Rebellion was faltering. Litalia backed (and helped make) the Unbound because she wanted to see every Shaper burn and their empire in ashes. And she says so often.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 11:27 PM #10 What do you think of Litalia?

I don't think thats what she meant. In g3 she is a terrorist, but she doesn't do it because she enjoy it. But because she thinks its right. Not only that, towards the end she actually starts questioning her methods and motivations. In g3 she appears mostly altered by canister cravings though.
In g4 she starts seeing the worth of trajkovite ideology. She is still a rebel but she sees wisdom in their thoughts on shaping.  So unbound... No i dont think she got thrills out of the destruction she was to make. Simply she, greta and everyone knew, without the unbound the rebelion would end

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 09:11 PM #11 What do you think of Litalia?

Well, she wasn't getting the laughs out of killing everything, sure. She did it because it was (according to her) necessary. But evil is at its worst when it's convenient. That she KNEW she was doing wrong in GF4, just makes her a clear villain IMO. She chose to do evil, knowingly.

I went back and read her replies in GF4. She often mentions "it was cruel, but necessary." or about the Trakovites "they are mad and even if they were right, those ahead of their time end up dead"


In each of Litalia's paths, she goes "it's cruel, evil, violent but necessary." She describes (GF4) how she was burning as a test serviles alive, while they were on their knees begging for their lives. She didn't like it, but did it anyway. "Necessary evil".
Fast Forward to Rebellion. Attacking a school. She didn't like it, but did it anyway. "Necessary evil." Killing trakovites in GF4. Didn't like it but it wasn't the time to discuss philosophy, so they should die. Didn't like it, but did it. Unbound. The same.
I won't spoil GF5 except to say "look at my sig and remember what Litalia asked the player to do, before he\she implied Litalia's crazy".


Quote

Simply she, greta and everyone knew, without the unbound the rebelion would end   
She mentions that, but unlike Greta, she doesn't show any great reluctance.
And another thing: For Drakons, failed rebellion = extermination. For rogue serviles = "very possible extermination unless I manage to hide that I rebelled". For the human, failed rebellion = "servitude and possible extermination if my ties to the rebellion are made known".
Simply put, he stakes for humans were not as high to unleash WMDs with legs. Drakons faced total oblivion.

Back in GF4, Shapers and Rebels didn't know that the Unbound would just be manageable by a seasoned Shaper and that it would take 2-3 to take down a town or that they would waste away because of their power within a year from creation. They were considered the "apocalypse now" version.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:35 PM #12 What do you think of Litalia?

True, but its what i said earlier, she doesn't enjoy her actions. She doesn't mind them either. Thus she's a sociopath not a psychopath. And she always did her actions knowingly, it ptoves even more on g5 that she does what seems necessary if no one else would do it. She actually in geneforge 4 saved a huge amount of humans by stealing the key to monarch's black pit. Which again proves that she doesn't believe in pointless violence she does it when it feels necessary. And of course she shows  no reluctance. If you as a leader show reluctance in attacking the enemy what good does it do to morale? Someone has to make the others feel like its the right choice. Its how military and leadership works. In thats aspect she is no different from any other shaper when ordering the execution of a rogue.
And true. The human part of the rebelion had lesser stakes than the rest but its up to them to decide qho they kill or die for. Like they usually say; better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

That is not to say she wasn't a bad person that commited horrible atrocities. Simply that its not all black and white, and she's more complicated than that.

This being said, alhoon pal; did the shaper propaganda get to you? Months back you were a good decent die hard rebel. What happened to the alhoon i knew? What did you do to them?

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 11:42 PM #13 What do you think of Litalia?

Why're talking Geneforge. :) Absence of black & White is the hailmark of the series. There are people that can be counted on one hand that are truly indefensible or truly noble. That is given.


THAT SAID:

Quote

Months back you were a good decent die hard rebel. What happened to the alhoon i knew?

I am a decent die-hard rebel! How dare you sir! OK, we had a few bad eggs in the mix (Litalia + Ghaldring) but it's not that the Shapers were better (they had Litalia too + Monarch + Taygen + Moseh + Rawal + a great number of pompous insufferable ########).

As you said, tons of Shapers are as ruthless as Litalia (although less mad, less evil and less effective). And while Litalia is the #3 worse person in the late-half of the series (Monarch goes first, Taygen second) IMO, the rebellion is on the right side. Despite Litalia's atrocities and Ghaldring's Shaperish authoritarianism, the rebellion itself fights for liberation from Shaper Tyranny and for Drayks\Drakons for the right to exist.

Aside of that, yes, I consider Litalia a mad b- (and Ghaldring a Shaper-wannabe with fangs). And I accuse SHAPERS for allowing such a person to become Shaper. Taygen, Rawal, Litalia, Monarch, Moseh have aaaaaaall slipped through the cracks of the oh-so-responsible-and-effective Shaper evaluations.
I completely and absolutely back Greta's faction in the Rebellion and she had validated my support a dozen times over; from calling me buddy more or less in GF4 when she was a general and I was fresh out of Illya province, to saying to Ghaldring's face in GF5 that the rebellion doesn't fight to replace Shaper Tyranny with Drakon Tyranny and warning him to his face again that Drakons would find another rebellion striking them if they push too far.
And a few other things I won't spoil from GF5 endings. Greta was not sad to see Litalia's back when she left the Rebellion.


PS. Litalia despite what she claims to you, escaped when she figured Monarch would try to kill her, not when she figured "Monarch wanted violence". The Monarch had no reason to lie in his journals.
PS2. I let Monarch go, to go obliterate a couple of Shaper cities. I can't claim innocence here.
Greta IIRC guessed and didn't approve.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 05:56 AM #14 What do you think of Litalia?

There you are! :)  
True but the rule for shapers is sanity and control, which is the exception for lifecrafters(that i know of only greta). What with heavy canister abuse.
Shapers are not perfect but they are much less likely to be insane.
Yes she did think he'd try killing her. But she could have left him with the black pit.

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 11:42 AM #15 What do you think of Litalia?

I don't know WHAT the black pit is, and I want to at least finish HALF of GF3, before I return to my pre-ending save in GF4 to go find what was behind those locked doors in Monarch's place.
Greta is not a life-crafter. I don't think she used more than a couple cannisters. In the GF4 ending it says (IIRC) something about people that didn't use many canisters, like Greta... etc.
I have barely met any Shaper that counts as sane. I've met ... 2 human Lifecrafters I think. One was Cani-junky Jarred. The other was a totally sane idiot in GF5 in some cabin. All drakon lifecrafters seemed sane for Drakons.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 08:19 PM #16 What do you think of Litalia?

Shapers are tyranical and autocratic and arrogant expecting obedience and reverence and treating all against their laws with disdain and spite. But for most part they are sans, exceptions usually involve canisters. The rest include taygen, moseh and that may well be it. Rawal is not mad. Self serving not mad. And monarch is never confirmed to be a shaper or not(i myself find it unlikely that he was).
True. Greta is not a life crafter(neither is the fool at the kyshak ruins(katra?) He is learning shaping, canisters make it inate to you. In the text it says something on the lines of he was making some kind of artila but it looked imperfect. And even if he was a lifecrafter too canisters are bound to make him crazy.
Also saying drakons are sane for drakons is as helpful as saying eyebeasts are sane for eyebeasts.
Drakons were made from and drayks are generally more sane than drakons. Drakons then indulge in self shaping making newer generation progressively less sane. The effects of self shaping are the same as for using canisters. A few older drakons refrained from self shaping much. those are saner.
Bringing me back to the fact that the rebel approach on shaping is bound to bring insane "shapers".
While the shaper approach to shaping might miss a few insane people into their ranks, but it is rare.
The whole rebel approach on shaping is why shapers worldwide go with "thats why shaper laws exist! Not for avarice but to avoid stuff like this! Look at the horrors of the rebelion. Us shapers follow rules. We would never have created the unbound if our lives depended on it. Tsk tsk geneforged people are abomination all power no control. Us the shaper master race go through years of training decades even to get the right to that power. The rebellion's existence is an exercise in futility as it proves the righteousness of the shapers"

Annnnnnd they are right on those points.
The closest to unbound they have made were drayks. Which they barred because they were too difficult/impossible to control, as such born rogue.
And yes there are people that took few canisters. But while shaper training conditions you to resist it(as evidenced by dinwanya) rebel training conditions you to seek them out and love and revere them. Like i said, sane shapers are the law sane lifecrafters are the exception.
Of course an insane shaper tends to do way more damage than an insane lifecrafter. Probably due to the means available.

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 10:20 PM #17 What do you think of Litalia?

When I took my first canister (or used the GForge, not sure) I got a text saying that now I see the world more or less like Shapers do; that people are background noise to their greatness. That's insanity. Sure you can say that Alwan is driven and stubborn. I say he's insane. You can say that general Crowly or whatever-he's-called is part bully and part too naïve to trust a geneforged guy after they killed all his friends. I say he's insane. You can say that weirdo Shaper that actually SHAPES the player in Crowly's fort in the Aziraph is just weird. I call her insane.
How about that Shaper working for Alwan in GF5, that when told to desing AGAIN a Control Core, after the previous one fell prey to rogue minds, didn't tell Alwan "With all respect councilor, you're mad."  
How about that idiot working for Alwan, again in CCB that made a mind that could actually SHAPE instead of just four minds that could just control creations? Madman.
etc


The Shapers miss the point that if they were not such obnoxious, pompous, tyrannical, genocidal, enslaving buttholes there would be no rebellion, hence no Unbound. The "Great Rebellion" was not the first and if it failed, it would not be the last.
Unbound were not nice. They were mad engines of destruction that would kill everything. Well, that's compared to the Shapers and their armies that were not-mad engines of destruction, leveling rebel cities with corpses piling up.
Sure, Shapers love to claim the horrors of the Unbound ... when Taygen was working on a doomsday device that obliterated civilization as everyone knew it. Even living tools die, so I would assume the living doors also died.
In GF3, one of my first quests were to heal someone that was suffering from a Shaper-made disease, made centuries before the Rebellion. So, Taygen was not the only madman working on diseases.


Shaper law exists for a reason, but that reason is to make sure power remains in the hands of Shapers. To ensure that they would collectively abuse common people and creations, without someone taking over them, they put the rule about self shaping so that no Rawals could take over the council by shaping themselves to Godhood like Ghaldring did (and came to dominate the rebellion).



And without spoiling the endings of GF5, about the irresponsible dash to power of the rebels during the war: I would like to draw your attention to what happens if the Rebels win, when their survival is no longer at stake.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 12:20 AM #18 What do you think of Litalia?

Alhoon you've reached your final form!
You just made insanity subjective to win the argument! High five! Im impressed by your devotion to the cause.

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 07:13 PM #19 What do you think of Litalia?

insanity was always subjective...
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 08:54 PM #20 What do you think of Litalia?

Tru but in that case, tirany, power,abuse, obnoxiousness, pomposity, genocide, slavery, stubbornness, drive, determination, bullying, naïveté, shaper, rebelion, geneforge, canisters, doomsday devices, diseases, even life itself. Everything can be subjective, but for sake of argument and society we place set limits on deviation from the meaning. Were those not there, anyone could be committed or arrested because crime would be subjective as well.

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 09:53 PM #21 What do you think of Litalia?

True enough... but let's go back to Litalia. I think it's beyond doubt that she's insane and dangerous. Whether she's a good leader or not... or whether her mass murdering sprees were justified, is cause for debate.

PS. I'm not 100% with the rebels. In GF3, the way the game is shaping up, I may side with the Shapers. Similar to GF4, the "enemy" killed my friends and tries to bully me to join. I sympathize with the rebellion, but I also sympathize with the tons of people in the Ashen islands that are targeted by the rebels.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 01:00 AM #22 What do you think of Litalia?

View Postalhoon, on 27 September 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

PS. I'm not 100% with the rebels. In GF3, the way the game is shaping up, I may side with the Shapers. Similar to GF4, the "enemy" killed my friends and tries to bully me to join. I sympathize with the rebellion, but I also sympathize with the tons of people in the Ashen islands that are targeted by the rebels.

You are seeing the evil, the darkness. Purge the rebel.

Keep going further back into the bowels of history. Geneforge 2, geneforge 1. The 'rebels' are worse there even if they go by a different name.

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 01:59 AM #23 What do you think of Litalia?

Idk i found myself too busy hating on lankan and master hoge and some other ppl on g3 to dislike her. By g4 she was acceptable.

And so it begins Alhoon's conversion arc. I'll later make a small cartoon on it.

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 07:13 AM #24 What do you think of Litalia?

Shaper Hoge is (by 2nd island that I am) the default traitor. Nothing special. Lankan is on the right side although he has a slight anger issue problem and I'll be glad to help him. I already found his canister and I plan to give it to him.
To get back on topic: I plan to give Lankan the canister made by Litalia so that Lankan could defeat the monsters Litalia keeps making. Lankan is the best choice for the island; Dubi-whatever is ... not really bad but he's clearly on the losing side.

Tell me that's not crazy: "Hi buddy. I am the one making the monsters that kill your friends. I will keep making the monsters but I'll make you powerful enough to survive their attacks. No, it may be easier to STOP sending monsters to kill you, but I prefer to keep at it and just spend tons of purified essence to make you able to survive my attacks."
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 08:07 PM #25 What do you think of Litalia?

Lankan doesn't want a solution. That is what turned me off him. To be fair though you really don't have that information until you've played through all the alternatives across a number of different attempts at the game.

What wins me over to Diyawania is what happens if you kill Lankan and make his problem 'disappear'. He gets seriously pissed at you for doing the wrong thing. Diya is trying to hold the island together. He lacks the power to stop everything and so is working his best to keep the situation under control and his people protected. That involves keeping them from going out into the swamps and his methods are poorly communicated (combined with the lay persons assumption that shapers are all-powerful) and so there is resentment building at what they see as inaction.

In the end though he has no desire to assault and destroy the 'rebels' with Lankan and is seeking a peaceful resolution. Lankan doesn't want that resolution due to pride and what appears to be a distinct lack of insight and awareness.

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 09:35 PM #26 What do you think of Litalia?

Really? Diya is the least bad Shaper I've met then. Well, perhaps with the exception of the nice Shaper in GF5 that makes turrets.
However, when I did.. something, I forget what, to diffuse the situation, Diyawania starts shouting and gets very angry. Are you sure if Lankan is killed that Diya is angered because you did the bad thing and not because you lit a cigar over a gas tank?
And in any case, I'm right now angry with Diya cause some of his Fyoras killed me yesterday. Out of the blue. I open a door in his basement and get pawned by some weird Fyoras.

I really wish there was a path that I could choose to FORCE these two to work together.
Is Diya a kind of "faction" where you can go and take quests after the island is dealt with etc? Or he's there for that island and you can't inform him of what happens further down? I'm pretty sure the big Shaper in the big island will be more Alwan-ish and less Astoria-ish.


I vote for Diyawania for the Council. He could work with Astoria to restore peace.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 12:54 AM #27 What do you think of Litalia?

Lankan is not on the winning side. Dinwanya can barely hold a few areas but he is doing better than the rebels which depend on litalia's very little and unreliable support. That being said just because lankan is unwilling to compromise(unlike dinwanya despite what he says) makes me completely off him. He is more arrogant than the shaper. With less reason to be. And more willing to sacrifice the lives of his subjects than dinwanya(who is not begging for validation, simply asking you to solve the rogue problem unlike lankan who says let the rogues be just gimme power) im sorry but in g3 litalia makes a more convincing argument to join the rebels than lankan.

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 02:00 AM #28 What do you think of Litalia?

To my knowledge the first two islands have virtually no effect on the game. They seem to be part of the build up towards making the real choices form island 3 and onwards. I'll be honest and say that I've only completed the game once and the second half of the game is a blur but I've done those first 2 islands extensively while testing different builds.

How is G3 going? Do you have either of the two party members tagging along with you? I remember in my early plays I'd basically chosen a side and didn't have the other npc join me. However, it can give you some great insight to have them both tag along. There are a number of points where each one can speak out and sometimes they speak to each other if you have both. Worthwhile watching the growth and change in each character. (if only I'd known how important they would turn out to be in later games)

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 05:11 AM #29 What do you think of Litalia?

G3 is not going very well. My latest attempt to play it was cut short by a rage-quit once Dubi-? Fyoras killed me.

Owen respectfully, I disagree. Lankan was forced to exile because of one grave mistake. He was charismatic so the "sub-shaper", misused and mistreated herb gatherers went with him once the situation turned bad. Why? Because the Shapers were proven to be vulnerable and they were despised by many people.
And there's also the other thing that I heard in a tavern: Whatever Shapers think, the "bargain" is that Shapers keep people safe and prosperous and the people in return serve the Shapers. Monsters running around and Shapers saying "oh, that's beyond my power!" = "and why the heck should we tolerate your pompous attitude and bow down to you?"
The Shaper answer to that seems to be (GF4-5) "because if you don't, we will kill you horribly". Not exactly the reply to inspire loyalty.

Again, we come to this: If Shapers weren't Tyrannical, there would be no rebellion. Lankan's friends wouldn't jump to the first opportunity, the first sign of vulnerability to abandon the evil magocracy. They would not prefer to sit in a swamp getting eaten by monsters than go back to the Shapers. And I accuse the Shapers for fermenting such disloyalty.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Owenmoz Owenmoz

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 09:02 AM #30 What do you think of Litalia?

Dinwanya(im sure im misspelling) wasn't bent on "killing horribly". The rogues were created by litalia. And even so he did the best he could to keep the people safe. He also forbade the gatherers to continue their trade exactly with mind to keep them safe. Like what you say is true in most cases but this specific you are generalising shapers into that kid. He did his best. And in all honesty seems to have had potential to become one of the good non tyranical shapers in different situations. But i'll let it rest. In this case what i do is ask you to one; read the shaper's notes on his basement. And two having previously saved the game. Refuse to give the canister to lankan when you're on your way back. Otherwise i hope you enjoy the game. It is the ugly duckling of the geneforge series. The previous ones are much better. But this is fun.

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 07:56 PM #31 What do you think of Litalia?

Yes, Dubi-? is the exception although he still acts superior and pompous. I don't accuse Diwaniya for setting Harmony island on fire more or less. Litalia did that on her own.
I accuse the Shapers for fermenting such disloyalty that people would prefer to sit in the mud and get eaten by monsters and I accuse Diwaniya for not doing a better job before the rebellion broke out to build bridges and for failing to communicate to the people his not omnipotent, and that they could and should stick with the Shapers cause the alternative is worse.
Thinking on it, Greta hasn't said anything bad about Diwaniya although she seems to like Lankan.


EDIT: gave the canister to Lankan. Diwaniya, with extreme ease, wiped me out for the betrayal. So he showed enough strength to do something about the rogues, and not enough control to allow me to explain why I did what I did. He considers the act, rightly, a gross betrayal. But he just attacked and wiped the floor with me and my creations. Alwan and Greta were killed in the first blast, two guards killed one of my vlish and... one of the three alphas in the room killed me. There were more guards, alphas and Ghaalks. He could do more than just whine, even if it was to go up and kill the rebels. Or send those Alphas and Ghaalks he hoards to keep the roads clean.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Owenmoz Owenmoz

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 09:27 PM #32 What do you think of Litalia?

Lolz. U using gameplay here for argument. In any case he can protect his city. He can't do better than that. Tbh please sidetrack the game. Save this one and try to do his quest. To see what he's up against. Did you try refusing to give the canister to lankan?

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 01:30 AM #33 What do you think of Litalia?

I already mentioned Lankan has anger issues didn't I? :)
I also mentioned I'm biased; hence I don't mention everything bad the rebels do...

But Lankan was more convincing in his anger. "You couldn't let us have hope" speech as he sees the only means he could use to fight back against the Shaper Tyranny evaporate was touching. It would STILL be asymmetric warfare; One guy able to throw fire-bolts wouldn't be enough to win against the massive force Diwaniya has hoarded in his home*. But it would give them hope, access to secrets and powers the Shapers decided they were not for them.
And yes, it's just firebolt. Come on, is turning someone to a sentient fyora THAT bad?

Though, I wonder how Alwan didn't attack me when I gave the canister to Lankan. I kinda felt as betraying everything in one grand motion of disobedience when I gave him the canister. No, turning someone to a sentient Fyora is not that bad. It is a grand betrayal though. And empowering people that align with those that killed my friends.
I am not ready to do that. Not yet. I think I won't give him the canister. The rebels haven't won me over yet. But I won't destroy the canister either.

*But I plan to take care of that for him. I am deeply against Diwaniya, even though he's not the worse the Shapers have shown.
He's far from the visionary you portray him to be though; he's totally committed to the status quo and holding to the threads of his power in a world that is changing.

View PostOwenmoz, on 29 September 2016 - 09:27 PM, said:

Lolz. U using gameplay here for argument. In any case he can protect his city. He can't do better than that. Tbh please sidetrack the game. Save this one and try to do his quest. To see what he's up against. Did you try refusing to give the canister to lankan?
That's what I plan to do Owen. The "official" one will be me not giving Lankan's canister till I'm sure I'll go with the rebels. Which at the time, I'm not cause as I said it feels like a betrayal in this game, and Litalia killed my friends.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Owenmoz Owenmoz

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 04:46 AM #34 What do you think of Litalia?

Alright like i said before ill let it drop. Still. Have fun doing litalia's dirty work rebel abomination scum >.> jk. update me when you do his side.

Blxz Blxz

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:17 AM #35 What do you think of Litalia?

It is so odd with you playing the games in reverse. You are watching society stitch itself back together (rather than slowly unravel) but you have the knowledge of what happens later on to cloud your judgement. Or I suppose to give you a unique perspective. It's just so odd, the first genuine shaper you've encountered happens to be one of the weakest most pathetic shapers in the entire series. He is also the one responsible for trying to win you away from the rebel cause.

Either way, you mentioned the social contract where the shapers protect and the people serve in exchange for that protection. There are times though when resources are stretched thin. This happens in our own world during times of war, natural disasters, etc. Now imagine a massive act of terrorism in the real world, an act unprecedented and in a location inadequately prepared to defend and isolated enough that it might well take weeks or months to get a message to the authorities and get them to bring back up. It is not unreasonable that the authorities might lose a bit of local power but in the interest of controlling the situation and avoid mass riots, death, starvation, etc. they try and prevent the situation getting worse until backup arrives. This is how I view Diyawania. Despite all his flaws he is maintaining the situation as is his job and as is the law.




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