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Humans vs. Serviles


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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 02:42 PM #36 Humans vs. Serviles

Nah, she doesn't fit my playstyle. I want to be Shaping pro first (based on intelligence, not shaping skills), magic second. Combat skills non-existent.


If I replay GF4, I'll have a "shocktrooper" that rarely participates in battles and just sink points into intelligence, Mechanics\leadership, Shaping skills, endurance, Parry. I will raise dex, missile weapons by 2 (probably training in the Fence) and go for blessing 3-4 and mind 3.


I just want some greater challenge and a reason to use all these spores, pods and stuff I collect. Perhaps I'll even use a wand! Who knows.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 02:54 PM #37 Humans vs. Serviles

View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

I just want some greater challenge and a reason to use all these spores, pods and stuff I collect. Perhaps I'll even use a wand! Who knows.
Ah yes, there I can find you:)

Anyways, what about the original discussion? Do you find humans to be superior to the servile race or not?
"You were the chosen one! You were to destroy the Slith, not join them!" - Vogel Wan Kenobi

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 03:29 PM #38 Humans vs. Serviles

Wait, as a race or play characters?

As a race, sure. A lot of serviles are mentally deficient to the point they can't survive by themselves and need handlers.

As for their adaptability that was mentioned... that's made with Shaper magic. The Shapers don't mind Shaping serviles. In GF4, the Shapers create a new kind of loyal servile; Shaped into adulthood. The poor guy even says he'll die at the end of the rebellion and he's sad that he won't be able to serve the Shapers anymore. Rogia, in GF5 is one such servile I think; not a turncoat, a double agent.
Hence, I don't think Serviles are easy to adapt; they just are genetically modified when adaption is needed.
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Posted 14 August 2016 - 04:53 PM #39 Humans vs. Serviles

View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Wait, as a race or play characters?
I meant as a race.


View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Hence, I don't think Serviles are easy to adapt; they just are genetically modified when adaption is needed.
I think they exceed humanity at adaptation. And for that, I gave the example of the Sucia Island serviles. They become basically the exact opposite
of what they were meant to be, without Shapers shaping them. Futhermore they learn themselves magic while the servile brain was hardcoded to not be able
to perform magic. Examples of this are also seen on Sucia Island (way before the Magus Complex appeared). The Shrine of Defiance is a sect of serviles who
teach themselves magic. Their temple is located near Kazg. They were looked upon as being fanatic and so they were banished to the outer reaches of the area
surrounding Kazg. But serviles managed to teach themselves magic without Shaper intervention.

"You were the chosen one! You were to destroy the Slith, not join them!" - Vogel Wan Kenobi

Blxz Blxz

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 06:32 PM #40 Humans vs. Serviles

I think the Shapers/humans are currently in a superior position across racial lines. I don't think they are inherently superior as a race though. There is ample evidence that serviles can be at least as intelligent the most intelligent humans in the game and that the fact they are totally dominated is partially the reason for them being so inferior in the game.

As a race they do have a pretty sad lot for the most part but that is situational and I wouldn't put it down to a racial inferiority. On average though they do seem to be poorly educated and pretty needy. I think their culture is pretty lacking and what little there is kinda disgusts me (messy slob behaviour, dangerous tribal mentality, etc.). The more intelligent, determined, and successful serviles tend to exhibit culturally more along the lines of the shapers and humans.

Of course this could well be my own biases but I'd say it is pretty consistent across the game. Given the limited scope though it really is difficult to make sweeping statements like this.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 11:56 PM #41 Humans vs. Serviles

Actually you're right they're adaptive. BUT, at the time of the games, they're still inferior IMO.
Most reptiles are faster to adapt than humans. That doesn't make lizards superior to us.


Blxz: You also said "situationally inferior" and not "inherently inferior". I would disagree. While some serviles are educated and can speak, there are also Serviles that cannot learn to speak well even if they're free for years.
Even in the ranks of the rebels, there are Servile carers.
Half the race being on range of human intelligence and half of it significantly below it would make them a less intelligent race. Truly smart serviles, to the level of the average spy or researcher (agent \ shaper or mage) are far fewer. Aside of Mekhen that was exceptionally smart, I've not seen many serviles that could do espionage if it wasn't for them being ignored and overlooked.
Another thing is that many serviles have the creation aversion to rogues, panic easily and are confused easily.
Mekhen in GF5 was reverting back to slave within a year, hence I would say they're much easier to brainwash.

I would say Serviles have an average IQ about 15 less than humans (with standard deviation 10, mean 100 for humans). As such, the 0.6% of Serviles are smarter than the 84% of humans. But the 93% of humans is smarter than 50% of serviles.

About Servile magic:
Not that impressive. :)

About Servile longevity:
There are very long-lived serviles and there are variants that are short-lived. Literally in the same game I'll see descriptions of "He\she is old even by the standards of the long-lived serviles!" but also "Serviles are not long lived" leaving me with the opinion that mine-duty serviles at least, are not long-lived*
*Although thinking of it, that may be situational and not genetic. In GF3, in the academy, you're given a hypothetical question about a crystal mine where Serviles die by the dozen.


Senses:
I have no idea if Serviles listen or hear better than humans. They're not exceptionally good or bad, but are they somewhat better\worse? No idea.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 12:53 PM #42 Humans vs. Serviles

View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

Most reptiles are faster to adapt than humans. That doesn't make lizards superior to us.
In fact, reptiles are not an adaptory species at all. There are exeptions but most reptiles have gone through very little to no evolution compared to humans (e.g. aligator).
And those exeptions are more prone to adaptation at biological and fysiological levels. If we look at the average reptil brain, it consists mainly of a cerebellum, whose main function is to handle motory functions. According to research, the reptile complex isn't all that flexible either. The reptile complex has also little to no cognitive capabilities; they rely mainly on reflexes with poor inhibitory functions. When I stated that the serviles are exeptionally good at adaptation, I was referring to to the serviles' mental adaptational capacities.

View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

I would say Serviles have an average IQ about 15 less than humans (with standard deviation 10, mean 100 for humans). As such, the 0.6% of Serviles are smarter than the 84% of humans. But the 93% of humans is smarter than 50% of serviles.
First of all, I would not make any statements about a fictional race's intelligence score. Moreover, you calculations are wrong. The standard deviation for Wechsler IQ tests is 15, not 10. The Gauss-curve equasion for Wechsler intelligence distribution is:

f(x)=(1/15√(2π))⋅e^-(x-100)^2/2⋅15^2

To calculate how many humans are smarter than the average servile, we can use the following equasion (we assume the average servile to have an IQ of 85):

∫(85,+∞)(f(x)=(1/15√(2π))⋅e^-(x-100)^2/2⋅15^2)dx=0,8413447404

We can also use the command "normalcdf(a,b,µ,σ)".

This means that 84% of humanity is more intelligent than the average servile.
However, I think that the servile intelligence distribution curve is alot flatter than the human equivalent.
This means that the Gauss-curve for servile intelligence has a higher σ value than the human intelligence curve and that there are alot more unintelligent serviles than unitelligent humans, but also more intelligent serviles than intelligent humans. I think this to be the case. However, we can only make vague assumptions about a servile's IQ.

View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

About Servile magic:
Not that impressive. :)
I never said that the serviles' magical capacities exceed that of humans, nor did I say that I found servile magic to be all that impressive. What is impressive is that the serviles learned themselves magic, while the Shapers tried to shape in the serviles a barrier that would make them incapable of performing any magic. By the way, in game mechanics, the serviles are still average magicians.

View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

About Servile longevity:
There are very long-lived serviles and there are variants that are short-lived. Literally in the same game I'll see descriptions of "He\she is old even by the standards of the long-lived serviles!" but also "Serviles are not long lived" leaving me with the opinion that mine-duty serviles at least, are not long-lived*
*Although thinking of it, that may be situational and not genetic. In GF3, in the academy, you're given a hypothetical question about a crystal mine where Serviles die by the dozen.
I never gave servile longevity as an example of servile superiority, since some real-life animals exceed the human lifespan by several decades, but humans are still the dominant race on earth and I dare even to say in existance.

EDIT: The Spiderweb forum text editor apparently doesn't like copy/pasted equasions from Grapher, so I had to type them manually. Sorry if they look messy.
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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 01:49 PM #43 Humans vs. Serviles

Well... you asked me a question. I based my answer on stuff, including longevity and the impressiveness of Servile's magic.
You can disagree with me, apparently you do, but to say "hey! I didn't mention longevity!" won't disqualify it from my assessment. ;)

Perhaps we should... ask Blxz that knows biology and some sociologist or something what ACTUALLY counts as "this create > that creature"
Does longevity count? Does adaptability? How important is reason anyway? What about procreational abilities? How about resistant to the elements and how good the creature is in surviving in its environment?

Unless we find a semi-legit answer to that... I'll keep mention longevity as an important factor, reason and intellect as another one, magic-impressiveness as a third one...
and consider adaptability and lack of ability to procreate effectively not that important.

Another factor: Serviles have a greater tendecy to become tribal and wild. Even smart serviles fall to that often. Like Footracer in GF5 but also others that I forget.

But I agree that the ability of the Serviles to learn magic, even unimpressive, through scarification was very very good.
But still... not that impressive magic. We already established that Serviles are adaptable creatures. I'm not convinced that this is as important as their deficient intelligence or lack of ability to survive without help.

PS. I'm a teaching assistant in the University and one of the subjects I assist my professor with is statistics. I love them.
Keep them coming.
HOWEVER, I'm not sure everyone else loves statistics. So... I'll use spoilers. NOTE TO PEOPLE: read the spoilers, I don't get too technical. Even less than Unbound Servile.
Spoiler

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Blxz Blxz

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 11:27 PM #44 Humans vs. Serviles

This is theory crafting beyond my ability. I tend to deal in real world facts for the most part. I can occasionally dip into the nerdy realm and debate non-existent stuff but for the most part my interest doesn't lie in that direction.

I'll leave it up to you guys to arm-wrestle out the facts. I don't think I can add much more than what I've already written.

Spukrian Spukrian

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 12:27 AM #45 Humans vs. Serviles

I see serviles as being equal to humans, biologically speaking. The few differences aren't significant, as serviles are able overcome their shortcomings. Their inferiority is due to Shaper oppression.

View PostSpukrian, on 14 August 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Don't worry, I trust you. It's been a while since I last played GF5. I don't have it installed on this computer though, so I can't check my old saves right now.
Last time I played GF5 I was a servile only using disposable creations, so the only way to check my facts is if I replay the game, which I don't feel like doing right now.

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 12:40 PM #46 Humans vs. Serviles

View Postalhoon, on 15 August 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Does longevity count? Does adaptability? How important is reason anyway? What about procreational abilities? How about resistant to the elements and how good the creature is in surviving in its environment?

Unless we find a semi-legit answer to that... I'll keep mention longevity as an important factor, reason and intellect as another one, magic-impressiveness as a third one...
and consider adaptability and lack of ability to procreate effectively not that important.
This is actually why I started this thread. Whether serviles are superior or not depends on how you define "superior". Our interpretations clearly differ at some points, but I think we share an overall similar opinion. We both put mental development (such as intelligence) as a prime factor for superiority. Adaptation is incredibly important to a species' survival, but is it a hallmark of superiority? Without going to much into depth, I think it is. Adaptation increases the chance for a species to be "succesful", so adaptation is at least a catalyst for superiority. Personally, I find reason, morality, empathy, ... to be important factors for superiority too, and serviles score high in that area.

View Postalhoon, on 15 August 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Another factor: Serviles have a greater tendecy to become tribal and wild. Even smart serviles fall to that often. Like Footracer in GF5 but also others that I forget.
Agreed, this is a good argument for servile inferiority. It is a pity, a flaw in servilekind. On the other hand, we encounter less servile bandits than human bandits. Some serviles have indeed a tendency to become savage, but humans with a similar urge tend to resort to banditry.

View Postalhoon, on 15 August 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

PS. I'm a teaching assistant in the University and one of the subjects I assist my professor with is statistics. I love them.
Keep them coming.
Cool :)

View Postalhoon, on 15 August 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

2. I would disagree on standard deviation being flatter for serviles. On the contrary, since they are created creatures, I would say σs (standard deviation of IQ for serviles) would be LOWER than humans.
Now that I think more of it, I'm not sure if the Gauss-curve is a valid representation of servile intelligence distribution.
I think that the distribution looks more like χ^2 (k) with k ϵ[3,6] (density function, not cumulative). So with alot of "extremely dumb" serviles, but, compared to humans, also more "extremely intelligent" serviles.

View Postalhoon, on 15 August 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

They didn't develop naturally, they were created. As such, smaller variation.
Actually ...
Spoiler

View Postalhoon, on 15 August 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:


There's also reason to believe (GF4 directly and GF3-5 hints from what I've seen) that serviles are STILL created. Hence, reducing their deviation more.
In GF4, the Shapers created smarter Serviles, but they were few. That would create a bimodal distribution.
I agree on the bimodal distribution model. I would say that before Shapers started mass producing dumb serviles around the time of G4 (and after the "rise of servilekind" in G1), the servile intelligence distribution curve looked somewhat like:


f(x)=1/π√(x(1-x))

Which is an arcsine distribution curve. It's maybe a bit of an extremist point of view, but examples sometimes need to represent extremes.

View Postalhoon, on 15 August 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:


In GF4 and GF5 it's also mentioned that the new generations of serviles are also made dumber by the Shapers. Hence the distribution is getting skewed to the bad side.
I agree. This new generation makes the servile intelligence distribution curve look more like a chi-square density curve (with approximately 4 degrees of freedom).

When it comes to intelligence, I think, as I said before, that there are far more unintelligent serviles than unintelligent humans, but more servile individuals on the utter right end of the curve. Since, in a chi-squared distribution µ=k, it is more likely that serviles have a lower average IQ than humans, though.

"You were the chosen one! You were to destroy the Slith, not join them!" - Vogel Wan Kenobi

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 01:39 AM #47 Humans vs. Serviles

X2  may seem good... but it produces too smart serviles! Frakly, the amount of servilles that could be considered smart (let alone geniouses like Moseh, Taygen, Rawal, the lads that made the geneforge...) is very limited. Which of course can't be easily determined since a "would-have-been-smart" servile that is not even taught to speak correctly and only learns to sweep floors will have learned to sweep floors faster and that is it.

PS. Avoid using many degrees of freedom.

PS2.  https://en.wikipedia...ta_distribution
That's what we should be looking at.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound




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