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Humans vs. Serviles


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Unbound Servile Unbound Servile

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 05:35 AM #1 Humans vs. Serviles

I was wondering ... who do you find superior: the humans or the serviles?
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Seraphite Seraphite

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 06:08 AM #2 Humans vs. Serviles

Humans. (when you consider the "one shaper is an army" thing)

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:50 AM #3 Humans vs. Serviles

I was never ever tempted to play a servile.
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 08:27 AM #4 Humans vs. Serviles

View PostUnbound Servile, on 13 August 2016 - 05:35 AM, said:

I was wondering ... who do you find superior: the humans or the serviles?
Gameplay-wise, the servile class is more powerful than all the other classes. That said, your question is like asking "who do you think is more powerful, the free person or the enslaved person?"  That said, playing a servile in GF4&5 is only marginally different from playing a human class.

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 08:38 AM #5 Humans vs. Serviles

Biologically, humans, clearly.

Morally and philosophically, serviles, clearly.

In terms of gameplay, neither; the servile class is, probably, ultimately weaker than the shaper/lifecrafter and sorceress; on par with the agent/infiltrator; and stronger than the guardian/warrior and shock trooper.
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 08:47 AM #6 Humans vs. Serviles

But agents, infiltrators and serviles cannot shape! As such, I would say they're weaker than the Good-at-Shaping \ moderate at shaping classes.
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 08:54 AM #7 Humans vs. Serviles

In GF4&5, whatever you're weak/moderate/strong at doesn't matter as much since you'll make up for your weak spots with equipment.

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 09:01 AM #8 Humans vs. Serviles

If you're weak in melee, you never need to make up for it. Actually if you're strong in Shaping, you don't need to make up for anything except for the unlock spell. OK, a few spores and batons to heal are nice and even at worse, blessing at 3 and healing at 3 are easy.
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Unbound Servile Unbound Servile

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 09:12 AM #9 Humans vs. Serviles

I would say that in some ways serviles are superior to humans.

First of all, the serviles' adaptational capacities are astonishing. The Shapers made sure that:

1. Serviles would never be able to practice magic. it is even stated in the games that the serviles' brain was modified to be incapable to practice magic,
yet they do succeed in overcoming this limitation and learn themselves the magical arts, albeit extremely hard to do so when no self-shaping is applied.
This is also an example of the tremendous willpower that serviles can possess.  

2. Serviles were made to be a dumb and obedient species, unable to form unique opinions and complex thoughts.
Many serviles become exactly the opposite. This barely requires an explanation. Tons of examples are seen throughout the games.
However one might argue that natural selection and the harsh conditions on Sucia island played a core role in this phenomenom.
Still one cannot deny that this is an amazing accomplishment. Their linguistic capabilities have also vastly improved.



Futhermore, the serviles seem to be capable of a certain degree of reason, unseen in many other sapient species.

1. When a servile forms and opinion or idea, he or she can support it with reasonable arguments.
Even the "mad" (prone to interpretation) Takers support their beliefs with reason. Or, at least, those who aren't outright insane, but nobody is always perfect.

2. A servile tents to submit to reason, quicker than any other race, when his/her arguments are proven wrong.
Note that Rydell (leader of the Obeyer sect in G1) eventually sees his cause to be hollow and joins the Awakened.
Evidence of this can be found in G2 in Ellhrah's tomb, where one can find Rydell's tombstone with the inscription: "Came to wisdom too late".
Most humans, on the other hand, tend to cling to their initial opinion, even when it has been proven unsupported, unjust, ...


Serviles are sentient beings, with a strong sence of empathy and moral compass.

1. From my point of view, whenever I aim for the faction with idealistic purposes in mind or the sect with most moral ground, I find this with the serviles.
One can argue that these serviles are foolish and their cause to be in vain but that is also prone to interpretation and opinion.
Anyway, serviles generally firmly and zealously support their chosen cause and try to realise their intents. Moreover, their intents were mostly good at heart.

2. When we see violence or malevolence within a servile, it is, in the great majority of cases, directed towards the Shapers or others who mean creations harm.
Note the serviles of Stonespire (Gull Island) in G3 when you play a rebel. When you first encounter them, they mistrust you and are disrespectful,
but when you prove to them that you are loyal to the Rebel cause, they show respect and treat you as an equal.
I must admit that there are some examples of power-hungry, evil or hostile serviles to be found across the games, but this is relatively a rarety to say the least.
In general, serviles tent to be more empathic, sentient and nice than the other sapient species.
Admitted, the human part of the Rebellion is also, mostly, good at heart.



Other relevant servile facts:

1. One cannot come out of the Geneforge series without having noticed the serviles' ... peculiar olfactory organ. Their sense of smell probably overclasses that of
humans.

2. Serviles are immensely cute. After reading a random servile saying: "Yummy, shrooms!", one cannot deny the irrefutability of the servile cuteness.

3. Serviles are excitable, generally social and sensitive creatures.

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 09:13 AM #10 Humans vs. Serviles

View Postalhoon, on 13 August 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

If you're weak in melee, you never need to make up for it. Actually if you're strong in Shaping, you don't need to make up for anything except for the unlock spell. OK, a few spores and batons to heal are nice and even at worse, blessing at 3 and healing at 3 are easy.
Yes, it's true that Shaping is the strongest and Melee is the weakest. With that said, in GF4&5 you are able to make characters who are "Swiss Army Knives", no weak spots to speak of.

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 09:15 AM #11 Humans vs. Serviles

Alhoon... you're seriously arguing that the Shock Trooper is a better class than Agents, Infiltrators, and Serviles?

O_o
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 09:35 AM #12 Humans vs. Serviles

To expand on this a little.  Shaping is the strongest mechanic in the games, but shaping skills are not the most important part of that mechanic.  There's never a great need to raise any shaping skill above 10; depending on the game, it may not even be useful to do so; characters with bad skill rates in shaping can easily make use of equipment to boost it (since they only have to wear it temporarily); and, perhaps most importantly, it is never really worthwhile for the PC to invest in more than one type of shaping skill.

Furthermore, while shaping is the strongest mechanic, there are real benefits from going solo, as many things are faster and simpler.  It's a different play style, to be sure.

In terms of the actual skills, magic skills are the strongest ones: it's a serious handicap for any playstyle to skip Blessing Magic; and Mental Magic is potentially as powerful as shaping, if properly attended to; and serious magic-users do want to raise multiple skills, unlike serious shapers.  Also, unlike shaping skills, it is actually useful to raise magic skills above 10 (Mental Magic, again, in particular).

This is why the top classes are those penalized in melee, which matters the least; the middle, alternate-playstyle classes are those penalized in shaping, which can be played around; and the lower tier classes are those penalized in magic, which can't really be played around.
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 10:41 AM #13 Humans vs. Serviles

First, I respectfully disagree that going for one skill is good; Fire creation have cold attacks (Cryoras, cryodrayk). Magic creations pack a lot of damage (Vlish\Wingbolts\Gazers). Battle creations are good meatshields.
So, I would say 5-6 in magic\Fire and 3 battle is a good target, and the rest by equipment.
Then you sink a LOT of points in mechanics, leadership and of course intelligence. ;) You can never have too much essence.
You can afford 7 top-tiers? You can still use more essence to bump them up

Shapers\lifecrafters\Shocktroopers are best because they have a lot of essence. Nothing I've seen beats essence. A class that would be bad in melee, moderate in shaping and bad at magic but has x2 essence than Shaper would IMO be the strongest class.
As such, Agents, infiltrators and serviles are in my opinion the weakest. A 20th level Agent would have strong mind magic and all...and half the creations of a 20th level Shocktrooper.


Yes, Agent may be fun to play. But Shocktrooper would be hands-down easier.
Shocktroopers don't need more than 3-4 blessing and mind 3 to open locks. Then, like Shapers, they can sit in the corner of the map and let their creations do the work. And Healing is a shaping skill... so if regen aura is in the game Shocktroopers get even more out of their class.
And yes, I'm talking about a shocktrooper that completely ignores combat skills (except parry) and strength. Who cares about armor? Same build as Shaper with less magic and more parry; perhaps a bit more dex. Still easier than Agent IMO. And more boring.

And you also have to look your friends in they eye and explain to them why on earth you play a combat-2nd class and never touch combat skills aside of parry 5-6. And sell items that give strength and keep items that boost blessing magic. And you pay to raise magic skills while you don't even bother with canisters of combat skills.
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 11:09 AM #14 Humans vs. Serviles

You're asserting things here that simply aren't true.

1) Battle creations are not any better at being meatshields than other creations.

2) Fire creations do have cold attacks, but there are few to no situations where this is a meaningful advantage over magic attacks.  (Enemy wingbolts are not one, because fire creations lack magic resistance.)  In some games, it won't hurt you too much to diversify as a shaper; in others, where mechanics favor pumping shaping skill more, it will; but you definitely never need to.

3) Using essence to "bump up" top tier creations is one of the most inefficient and pointless things you can do in the series.

4) In G4 and G5, Agents and Infiltrators get 87.5% the Essence of a Shaper or Lifecrafter, so I think you may be overstating the diffrence here.

Essence is very useful, but it also isn't the only thing that affects shaping.  In many of the games, you are better off keeping a lower level creation around to level up, than you are making a higher level creation.  A set of levelled up vlish (or a few drayks or wingbolts, or whatever) consistently supported by buffs, healing, and mental magic, are going to be a lot more formidable than a set of high-essence, top tier creations where the amount of spellcasting support is limited by the PC's skill level (i.e., buffs that don't last) or spell energy.

Shock Troopers are the class that is most frequently made fun of for being so unimpressive.  You phrase your assertions so strongly, you put them in bold, but the reality is you're flying in the face of a decade-long general consensus here.  I'm not really interested in arguing this further, so I'm going to leave it at that.
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 12:36 PM #15 Humans vs. Serviles

That 12.5% is 1 more gazer. ;)
And you have less essence because you need some combat skills and your healing skill costs more. Hence you're 1-2 intelligence down from a Shaper of your lever + 12.5% less essence.

Agreed, bumping up is an extremely inefficient thing to do with Essence, I don't disagree on that. BUT if you have 7 tier 5s and 300 essence remaining, you can bump them.
PS. I had a 44 level Cryora with boosted str and dex is GF5. Cost less than a Cryodrayk, did about the same damage and had so much dex nothing could hit her!
And that's the only case in 2 1/2 games   I didn't regret putting essence to a creation.


Well, I mean I boost creations I am sentimentally attached with, knowing full well that they're not worth it. That Cryora was the only one that, at the late game, was worth the essence. She was better than the Cryodrayk I had with me for long, and cheaper.


EDIT: Kyshaaks can tank and use magic. Drayks are not too shabby in close combat for their cost compared to Alphas.
Magic creations are interesting and pack a punch, but less hp.
So... I guess an agent could go for Fire \ magic mostly but still misses out compared to a Shaper that has more diversity.



Anyway, to return to the question of the OP: I consider the Servile the weakest possible class although that opinion doesn't seem to align with the consensus in this forum.
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 01:54 PM #16 Humans vs. Serviles

IIRC in GF5 (and I think in GF4 aswell, don't know about GF1-3) creation stats are capped at 30.

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 02:36 PM #17 Humans vs. Serviles

Certainly not for GF5, I have creations at 35-40 in stats.
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Lilith Lilith

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 05:48 PM #18 Humans vs. Serviles

View PostJade Jade, on 13 August 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

Alhoon... you're seriously arguing that the Shock Trooper is a better class than Agents, Infiltrators, and Serviles?

O_o

speaking as that weirdo who did a no-magic shock trooper run in g4 i would actually rate the shock trooper above the servile in that game tbh. the game throws enough items at you that you honestly can work around having little or no magic when you really need to (although seriously please at least invest in healing craft if you're not doing a self-imposed challenge)

they're still more or less strictly worse than a lifecrafter, which is a big part of the reason they get made fun of, but "strictly worse than the best class in the game" isn't such a bad position to be in, in absolute terms

edit: come to think of it i guess it depends how you define "better". the shock trooper does something that's very effective (making lots of strong creations) but doesn't do it as well as the lifecrafter, while the servile is the best at what it does (melee combat backed up by magic) but i'd argue that what it does just isn't as good

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:20 PM #19 Humans vs. Serviles

Well, that's my position on it too Lilith, but I would also add that Shocktrooper would for me be kinda boring: A shaper with less magic. I wouldn't invest in combat skills; I would still rely on my creations and perhaps a little parry and a baton to carry the day.
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:37 PM #20 Humans vs. Serviles

Lilith -- it's not so much about melee.  Remember the nickname the servile had on the forums when G4 came out?  "Turtle mage."  The servile gets an HP bonus, much better Parry, I think extra End (not sure), an easier time wearing heavy armor than Agents or Shapers, and an easier time layering on armor and augmentation spells than Guardians.  A properly prepared servile can plow right through mines that will kill other characters.  Most shaper builds are fragile, and blast with overwhelming offense; the servile is the opposite, tough enough to survive anything and heal back up without ceasing to attack, even if his attack is weaker.  It's a different strategy, and not as easy to use as optimized shaping, for sure.

Also, I'm not saying useful consumables are irrelevant or should be ignored, but if your demonstration would fall apart without heavy use of them, I think it weakens the argument.
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Posted 13 August 2016 - 08:46 PM #21 Humans vs. Serviles

my experience was that having a bunch of creations to take hits for you was at least as good a defensive strategy as being able to take a bunch of hits on your own, not just because creations are more disposable (i usually reloaded when they died tbh) but because some of the higher-tier ones come with unreasonably good resistances right out of the box. a lot of the most dangerous things you fight in mid-to-late-game g4 and g5 use energy attacks, and a wingbolt or gazer of your own can tank energy attacks as well or better than even the tankiest servile. and you can easily get wingbolts by halfway through g4, so that's basically your endgame build sorted right there. in g5 you can get war tralls around the same point in the game instead and they're pretty dang solid too just by virtue of having way too many hp

it's true that a tanky servile build can walk through some minefields that other builds can't but that's a fairly niche advantage, given that there aren't that many minefields where just walking through them is the best option for getting past

also if we're saying that dependence on consumables weakens a build then i'd point out that i'm not sure the servile is all that much less consumable-dependent than the shock trooper, because they really need healing items to be able to keep themselves alive while still taking other actions

ultimately, though, a tank build is certainly viable and a servile is the obvious choice for it if that's the build you're going for, so there's a clear reason to use a servile if you prefer a particular play style. meanwhile, a shocktrooper has a number of advantages over the servile in isolation if you look at the two classes side by side and it's possible to argue it's an easier class to use overall, but the existence of the lifecrafter means there's just not a lot of reason why you'd use a shocktrooper. it's an interesting situation

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 03:46 AM #22 Humans vs. Serviles

View Postalhoon, on 13 August 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

Certainly not for GF5, I have creations at 35-40 in stats.
Strange... I have to doublecheck this.

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 03:47 AM #23 Humans vs. Serviles

A friend of mine prefers swords from magic generally. He plays warriors in games etc. With the emphasis these games place on Shaping, I believe he would play a Shocktrooper. He has played the first games as a Guardian.

Quote

Strange... I have to doublecheck this.

I could get a screenshot, but it's a hassle. :)
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Posted 14 August 2016 - 04:29 AM #24 Humans vs. Serviles

View PostJade Jade, on 13 August 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

Alhoon... you're seriously arguing that the Shock Trooper is a better class than Agents, Infiltrators, and Serviles?

O_o
leave now Alhoon And go hurt yourself PLSa

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 04:40 AM #25 Humans vs. Serviles

I should go hurt myself because I have a different opinion that you?
Not nice buddy.
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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 04:44 AM #26 Humans vs. Serviles

Hold up is this forum about serviles vs humans or shock troopers vs the world... It's not shock troopers fault she is by far the weakest most contradicting class ever... Just saying... But then there are serviles * sighs * vomits ... * looks at classes for geneforge 4... * vomits

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 04:47 AM #27 Humans vs. Serviles

View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

I should go hurt myself because I have a different opinion that you?
Not nice buddy.
soz only kidding to back up a point... All in the good spirt of a healthy debate

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 04:49 AM #28 Humans vs. Serviles

Btw Alhoon you are a beast at Moding just have to get it out there play this guys extra content mod like who doesn't love it

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 05:14 AM #29 Humans vs. Serviles

Scourge of the Rebellion: please stop making multiple posts in a row that are 2 minutes apart and are 1 sentence each.  I'm asking you this nicely, but as a mod.

Once in a while, it happens, we get it, but you're doing it all the time.  This is a clear sign that you usually have more than 1 sentence to say, so you should stop and think "what do I have to add?" before hitting the Post button.  And if you do think of something 10 minutes later, just use the Edit button to add it to the post you just made.
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Posted 14 August 2016 - 05:22 AM #30 Humans vs. Serviles

/mod hat off

View PostLilith, on 13 August 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

ultimately, though, a tank build is certainly viable and a servile is the obvious choice for it if that's the build you're going for, so there's a clear reason to use a servile if you prefer a particular play style. meanwhile, a shocktrooper has a number of advantages over the servile in isolation if you look at the two classes side by side and it's possible to argue it's an easier class to use overall, but the existence of the lifecrafter means there's just not a lot of reason why you'd use a shocktrooper. it's an interesting situation
I can agree with that.  I do feel the need to emphasize though that servile vs shaper is an actual different play style, and not inherently inferior: since "play style" seems to be brought up on these boards most frequently to justify things that are actually the identical playstyle with worse numbers, like archers in A2CS, or just "I like melee more than magic no matter what the numbers say," etc.
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Posted 14 August 2016 - 06:08 AM #31 Humans vs. Serviles

As I've mentioned, I have a friend that played the Geneforge games (or the demos for some games) and he prefers swords from magic. So Shocktrooper is an actual choice for him.
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Posted 14 August 2016 - 07:42 AM #32 Humans vs. Serviles

On the servile vs. shock trooper discussion, I have to go with the servile. A servile can be a very powerful and fun class to play, but you have to do it the right way. If you go wrong on your build, you will most likely end up with an underpowered character. A servile can rely on creations to back him up, but only to a lesser extent.
I'm not sure whether or not a shock trooper is as good at shaping as a shaper/lifecrafter (I thought she is not), but a shock trooper is weak in magic and this is where
she is a let down for me. I found magic (blessing and mental, not battle) to be unmissable in the Geneforge games.
The shock trooper is basically a bulky shaper/lifecrafter with less magic, while the servile is a unique build on its own.
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Posted 14 August 2016 - 07:52 AM #33 Humans vs. Serviles

View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

I could get a screenshot, but it's a hassle. :)
Don't worry, I trust you. It's been a while since I last played GF5. I don't have it installed on this computer though, so I can't check my old saves right now.

alhoon alhoon

Sorcerer

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 08:54 AM #34 Humans vs. Serviles

With a Shaper, I never had trouble in geneforge games (early 3 finished 4-5) with just a little blessing magic and no mind spells aside of unlock; I finished GF4 having bought 2-3 points in blessing magic, same with GF5. So far I don't plan to invest in blessing magic more than required for speed in GF3. Although, to be sincere, in GF3 I can't cast speed much (yet) because the Shaper doesn't have much energy... :(

Since the Shocktrooper is good at Shaping and Servile is weak, and I've never found the need for more than 3 in blessing \ mind magic, personally I consider Shocktrooper better although I've been told not many agree with me.
It's actually the class I plan to play as when I replay GF4.
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Posted 14 August 2016 - 02:29 PM #35 Humans vs. Serviles

View Postalhoon, on 14 August 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

I've been told not many agree with me.
It's merely a matter of playstyle. Honestly, I've played a shaping class most of the time and I like them very much, but a servile just fits my playstyle better.
If the shocktrooper fits your playstyle, I think she can be pretty powerful, but she doesn't fit me mostly because of her lack of magical potential.
"You were the chosen one! You were to destroy the Slith, not join them!" - Vogel Wan Kenobi




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