Geneforge 1 creations.

[Owenmoz]

Sucia was a highly advanced research island with very powerfull and innovative shapers. They created the *arguably* most powerfull geneforge. And dabbled in a lot of ilegal research. So, ignoring the technicall aspects such as the game is old etc... wouldnt it make sense to have very advanced creations in the game? Because rothgoths, drakons, gazers and the such were first created by somewhat underfunded rebels with relative lack of materials and experience in shaping among other handicaps. I would think, if the sucia island shapers worked with self shaping and reshaping they would have created some powerfull and bizare creations. Probably different from any we know. Thoughts?

[Blxz]

Ignoring the fact that Jeff hadn't invented them yet, I think the fact that the high creations were only created later in the game through story reasons (war, drayks self shaping, etc.) gives a good explanation.

 

As a reference, Issac Newton was a genius possibly beyond many other people alive today and he invented calculus and did all those problems on paper by hand but that doesn't mean that he could make discoveries that are as deep as the ones we make today simply due to technological difference. Gravity waves and stuff just could not conceivably be measured in his time. And ugh...neither could gazers and eyebeasts.

[Lilith]

Also, researchers tend to focus on specific areas of study, and it seems like most of the research conducted on Sucia was focused on modifying humans. If the Shapers on Sucia felt that shaping oneself to improve one's own abilities was a more reliable route to power than making new and stronger creations, then creation research might not have been a high priority for them.

[Owenmoz]

Ok, since from sucia to the rebelion i dont see shapers making any revolutionary discoveries so a lot has not changed i would assume they were in technological stagnation period as such i dont think sucia shapers were that far behind. Besides rothgots, drakons and gazers were the natural course after the third tier creation. Such that they were created independently in gull's and geneforge 2. And later on too because rothgots became common in shaper armies by geneforge 4 and 5 and assuming that all the research team in gulls died and their knowledge with them. So in theory i would agree with the gap in technology thing and dwarves in the shoulders of giants. Just not much points to it. (I dont remember, where there golems on geneforge 1? Cause if not then Blxz may be completelly right, if not evidence sorta points to what lilith said. Cept that a lot of what we saw in geneforge 2 is said to be based on the sucia research. Even if on geneforge 1 i didnt see much pointing to it. Also, anyone noticed how most bared places involves research with golems? You would think shapers would learn from their mistakes...

 

Edit: I just remembered sucia shapers did do creation research. They were the first to create shades right?

 

[Triumph]

You do see the addition of Wingbolts, Kyshakks, and War Tralls to the creation arsenal, and I'm pretty sure it's clearly indicated that all of those were devised by the Shapers (all that done during the war as a response to the needs of the war). Also, technically, rotghroths, gazers, and drakons were NOT actually invented by underfunded, inexperienced rebels. They were also invented by a powerful, experienced, ambitious shaper named Barzahl who, judging by the state of his facilities, was actually pretty well funded (albeit funded by illicitly siphoning away resources meant for Drypeak).

[alhoon]

Didn't shapers had rotgroths before GF2? If what you say is true, in the 20-25 years between GF2 and GF5, Shapers doubled the number of creations they came up with in 3 centuries.

[Triumph]

Nope, it's quite clear in G2 that the rotghroth is something new.

[Nim]

text1 = "_Before the war, Takers and Barzites worked together. They made new creations. Strong creations. They were concerned only for pure power, forgetting about wisdom, about control._";

text2 = "_Through this process, strong creations were made. The drakon. The gazer. The rotghroth. But many mistakes were made. And the mistakes were discarded

 

question = "How have you improved battle alphas?";

text1 = "_We have developed a variety called the rotghroth. Stronger, larger, and with a corrupting touch._";

text2 = "_We have not had much luck with the design. The Takers are ahead of us in this regard. More testing is required

[alhoon]

Well, no need to provide the text. I believe you. But I have to wonder (since Unbound are probably destroyed and never remade after the war, same with the charged bugs that destroy crops en-masse that Litalia releases etc) what other creations have the Shapers made during their wars to take over Terrestia that they abandoned when they went for safe, stable, creations.

[Slawbug]

Well, drayks, for one thing. It's easy to forget in later games with all the new stuff, but drayks were barred and it was a big deal.

[Owenmoz]

Fair point triumph. Still, i think sucia had a greater potential for creating stuff. They didnt necessarilly play safe or were responsibly. Also they were very well funded and about extraordinarily talented. Also what Nim said.

Also ahloon, the shapers during the war showed a comendable ammount of restraint. It was honestly the rebels that did all the stupid crap. There was rawal with likelly more skeletons in his closet than what we know of. But on the whole the two instances of laxer atitude was the creation of charged animals and taygen's research. Both of which were not wreckless as the unbound and shredbugs and diseases etc...

Of things created and barred by shapers, we have self shaping, necromancy, some Golem augmentation research( again why keep repeating it), and finally drayks which are the only instance in which i severelly disagree with their actions. It wasnt fair to bar them. They should have maybe dumbed the next generation down and quietly execute the drayks that were being too problematic. But going on a full blown genocide isnt fair.

[idonotexist42]

I'll point out that the creations added in G2 were based on the discoveries from Sucia island, it was the secrets Barzal and Zakary took back from the island that allowed them to create those new creations. They just picked up where Sucia left off and they were the logical progression. It's not as if they were created in a vacuum.

[Hyena of Ice]

I'll point out that the creations added in G2 were based on the discoveries from Sucia island, it was the secrets Barzal and Zakary took back from the island that allowed them to create those new creations. They just picked up where Sucia left off and they were the logical progression. It's not as if they were created in a vacuum.

 

Bingo.

 

Such that they were created independently in gull's and geneforge 2. And later on too because rothgots became common in shaper armies by geneforge 4 and 5 and assuming that all the research team in gulls died and their knowledge with them.

 

Yeah, that's a serious discrepancy that never made sense to me. How could Shaper Agatha make parralel discoveries on two of the same species created by Barazahl and Eeass in G2? And why are the Shapers in G4 using an illegal creation? Is that last point ever even addressed?

Shapers in G4 also use worms/crawlers. Crawlers seem like they would be a HIGHLY illegal creation to use outside of controlled settings (e.g. a laboratory as opposed to military and scouting) seeing as how their larvae are parasitic to most organisms including humans.

 

I dont remember, where there golems on geneforge 1?

No, there were not. However, subsequent games give inconsistent information about them. Early in G2 IIRC you are told that golems are a new creation, but later into the game the narration acts like they've been around for awhile, and G3 onward literally claim that they have been around for some time.

 

Fair point triumph. Still, i think sucia had a greater potential for creating stuff. They didnt necessarilly play safe or were responsibly. Also they were very well funded and about extraordinarily talented.

 

You also have to bear in mind that there is some insinuation the Spirit City etc. that the Shapers chose Sucia Isle for the project because there was ancient, forgotten knowledge about Shaping in the ancient ruins. IIRC there is never any conclusive evidence of this beyond the protagonist's speculation.

 

Of things created and barred by shapers, we have self shaping, necromancy, some Golem augmentation research( again why keep repeating it), and finally drayks

 

Human shaping is forbidden, period. It might be permissible to use human genetic stock, but it is illegal to shape a living human being. Also, you forgot about demonology. Not allowed to deal with "forces from the infernal realm"

[Lilith]

Yeah, that's a serious discrepancy that never made sense to me. How could Shaper Agatha make parralel discoveries on two of the same species created by Barazahl and Eeass in G2? And why are the Shapers in G4 using an illegal creation? Is that last point ever even addressed?

 

It's mentioned in G4 and G5 that some of the Shaper laws are being enforced less strictly as the Shapers get increasingly desperate to put down the rebellion.

[Owenmoz]

 

 

It's mentioned in G4 and G5 that some of the Shaper laws are being enforced less strictly as the Shapers get increasingly desperate to put down the rebellion.

 

Yah that would explain why they use them. But knowing how shapers tend to erase all illegal research(eg, purity officer from dhonal's keep, all minds in sucia etc...) they also rarelly keep written copies of their research among others its sorta weird that they figured how to create rothgoths. It seems that least 3 different times shaper reached the conclusion that improvement over the battle alpha would be a rotting acidic zombie. All of those being separate isolated instances. Great minds think alike?

 

Also why would rothgoths be ilegal. I figure they smell bad and the acid might damage things around them. But minimum rogue tendencies. And even if they had they have a very short lifespan. Admitably not the best creation for defence. Nor particularly low mantainance but i see no grounds to make it illegal.

 

Also ya. Completelly forgot about infernal beings. On thing however that i dont understand is on the reshaping. Not that i favour it, canisters just arent worth it. But healing craft technically is reshaping.

[Nim]

.. Such that they were created independently in gull's and geneforge 2. ..

There was nothing independent about Agathas research. The rebel serviles "found" notes and canisters for her and accidentally let slip that one of the "new" creations she made was called a Rotghroth.

[Triumph]

But healing craft technically is reshaping.

 

Not so much. There's a big difference between repairing damage & restoring something to its natural state, versus implementing permanent alterations. Healing craft is the former; canisters and the geneforges are the latter.

[idonotexist42]

I always assumed that when shapers started using rotgroths they'd been reverse engineered from the rebel ones. On Gull Island all the evidence points to the shapers there somehow having been influenced by the rebels somehow, what with all the canisters and such; it was sketchy business. Also yeah, Rotgroths were adopted no-problem by the shapers because mentally, they were a normal creation, not independent like Drayks, Drakons, or Gazers/Eyebeasts. And I don't recall Drakons or Gazers being made by the shapers on Gull Island either.

 

One of the reasons stronger creations weren't made on Sucia is because it was shut down just as it was hitting its stride and they didn't have the opportunity to progress farther. Presumably if they'd been allowed to continue their research we would have seen increasingly powerful creations invented there. Perhaps not the same ones but definitely mighty ones. If Drayks hadn't been Barred while Sucia was operating (not clear on when they were barred relative to the island being barred) Drakons might have been invented because "Bigger more powerful dragons" is the logical progression from "small quadruped dragons" Who knows if Rots would have been made but "harder to kill, faster, and yeah, it also covers its foes in acid" seems like a reasonably expected improvement on the Battle Alpha. Gazers as we know them I doubt would exist but presumably the template of Vlish would have been innovated upon somehow.

 

Worms and crawlers were only used by the shapers out of desperation and because assumably they're easy to make a ton of. I don't recall seeing as many in G4, but in G5 when they're desperately trying to fend off the Unbound they seem to have thrown much of their restraint out of the window.