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New to Geneforge - I have a few questions...


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I recently took advantage of the gog sale and bought all the Geneforge games as well as the Avernum games. I love these old style games but I am having a little trouble in Geneforge...

 

1. The sound. It's all crackly. It's relatively clear in that I can tell what things are supposed to be - but it comes out kind of rough.

 

2. What is the best to play as first? Shaper, Guardian, or Agent? And if I go with Shaper can I neglect physical completely? Can I use spells to deal with locks and traps or will I need to invest there?

 

3. Does the story continue through all six games? Are they loosely related?

 

Lastly, and this may sound kind of stupid - but the game is pronounced as gene-forge, right? For some reason I have the tendency to want to pronounce it thus: jenna forge.

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2. Shaper can be easier because you can invest in intelligence for a large essence pool to make creations. The creations can attack while you stay back out of harm's way. Guardians can also make creations, but they tend to be fighters that deal with the enemy by themselves. Agents are spell casters that sneak around and attack using spells from a distance. Agents are fun to play, but may have problems until you get used to the system.

 

Spells to open locks and traps is easier than lugging the heavy living tools around and getting encumbered. But you might want to invest some to save essence for later.

 

3. The story continues through the 5 games, but it's not completely like any of the endings from the previous game. There are references to what has happened in the previous game.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. You won't need it once you use enough canisters. :)

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Wow. Thank you so much Randomizer. I can't wait to jump into these games. They look so cool. I am burned out on Forgotten Realms campaign settings and D&D stuff which is all I've been doing the last several months over roll20 as well as CRPGs. One of the things that attracted me to these games is the campaign setting seem very unique and interesting.

 

As for the sound, it's much better when I'm not using headphones so that's pretty much solved. What I will do in Geneforge is go with a Shaper. Maybe once I've learned the mechanics I will try an agent. Either way I can't wait to dive in!

 

Thank you!

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The games are really well designed around the shaper class.

 

As a word of warning, Geneforge 1 to 4 tends to have very VERY squishy shapers. Often a single hit can and will kill you from the midgame onwards. You need to cultivate a strong army and keep in mind that you are not the fighter. Play to the strengths of your class.

 

Geneforge 5 is much more forgiving in that respect in that HP values have been scaled right up.

 

For the record, 1 and two are my favs and playing through the whole series from start to finish is an absolute treat. Have fun!

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The favorites tend to be agents and shapers. Until 4 warrior type characters had a huge disadvantage early on the game. Later on it gets better but its preferable to get agents. Shapers as noted are weak. Any dificulty from normal upwards will mean a hit from the most basic enemy will likelly kill you unless you buy some endurace points. But they are decent with magic and great at shaping(around which the story revolves). You can use spells to deal with weak locks but not on traps. However if diplomacy and mechanics arent your forte. All geneforge games allow for alternative routes. If you like clearing everything its worth investing.

They continue throughout the series. But the there are cannon endings. But as is pointed out almost everywhere. You dont need to play earlier games to enjoy the later one. It is pretty satisfying to do so though. Specially from 3 to 4 or from 1 to 2. There are references to the previous games and such.

Also idk i always pronounce it sorta like jennaforge. But i think its cause english isnt the first language? Should be gene forge. But my head wont process it :p

 

Enjoy man.

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The favorites tend to be agents and shapers. Until 4 warrior type characters had a huge disadvantage early on the game. Later on it gets better but its preferable to get agents. Shapers as noted are weak.

 

This is not entirely true. Guardians are *unquestionably* the most powerful class in G2 (the Parry mechanic when first introduced turned out to be a little over the top). Shaping is also probably the most powerful thing you can do in G5. (This is not to say any class is unplayable in any game, only that as the game mechanics shifted from game to game, certain classes or strategies would be "most powerful" for that particular game).

 

Oh, and yes, the name is gene-forge, not jenna-forge.

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Yeah, I think some of the evaluations in this thread are a little off. I'd assign ratings (out of 10) somewhere along these lines:

 

G1 - Shaper 8, Guardian 6, Agent 4

G2 - Guardian 10, Shaper 8, Agent 6

G3 - Shaper 10, Agent 7, Guardian 4

G4 - Lifecrafter 8, Servile 7, Infiltrator 7, Warrior 5, Shock Trooper 5

G5 - Sorceress 10, Shaper 10, Lifecrafter 8, Guardian 8, Agent 8, Infiltrator 6, Servile 6, Warrior 5, Shock Trooper 5

 

Most relevant factors:

G1 - disposable creations, relative lack of spells

G2 - broken parry, disposable/long-term creation balance changed

G3 - switch to lower melee dice, improved daze, various subtle balance changes that hugely favor cheap long-term creations

G4 - relatively tightly balanced game

G5 - due to a bug shaper/guardian/agent get huge inherent resistance bonus, sorceress probably best theoretical training combo

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G3 - Shaper 10, Agent 7, Guardian 4

 

 

On this one i have to say i think agents have it better since top tier creations arent nearly as usefull as the dont gain many levels. So an agent might create one or two mid tier ones and not feel a lot of pain. The spells cost a lot of energy which some shapers might end up not having. They are sorta versatile with the rest. And experience scales for lower party size rather than higher. Plus with greta or alwan its sorta like a free creation. I mean i tend to choose shapers because im more comfortable. But Geneforge 3 was made for agents imo. I can sorta agree with the rest or stay neutral to what you said. But on this one i dont think you're right.

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This is not entirely true. Guardians are *unquestionably* the most powerful class in G2 (the Parry mechanic when first introduced turned out to be a little over the top).

The most powerful defensively sure. Which matters only when you get hit a lot. I don't see how they can keep up to par offensively with a shaper tho, not sure about battle magic agents.

Oh, and yes, the name is gene-forge, not jenna-forge.

Please not that discussion again :(
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On this one i have to say i think agents have it better since top tier creations arent nearly as usefull as the dont gain many levels. So an agent might create one or two mid tier ones and not feel a lot of pain. The spells cost a lot of energy which some shapers might end up not having. They are sorta versatile with the rest. And experience scales for lower party size rather than higher. Plus with greta or alwan its sorta like a free creation. I mean i tend to choose shapers because im more comfortable. But Geneforge 3 was made for agents imo. I can sorta agree with the rest or stay neutral to what you said. But on this one i dont think you're right.

I agree that G3 is relatively good game for Agents, but the creation levelling up mechanics are very favorable in that game, and there are some amazing, cheap creations. Unfortunately, there's no contest for the other classes.

 

http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/5111-broken-vlish-a-too-long-analysis/

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Exactly. Which is why i think agents deserve the best spot there. The health isnt handicapped. And they dont need essence. Granted its not very fun playing with an agent and 7 vlish. Also i just realised the huge ammounts of money you'd end up saving. But shapers have low health and honestly the vlish is theoretically better than the drayk. So the only other worthwhile creation is the glahk in g3. Its fun and games to get a rothizon, drakon and gazer as pets. But its not necessarilly worth it. I'd give at least an 8 to agents and would drop the shapers to an 8 too. With guardians i agree. I finished the game with one. Not enough essence for a decent team and ablosutelly worthless with spells. Am i wrong or did they lowered even further the energy scaling for them?

 

 

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The low essence requirements actually don't help agents. The reason is that they have very little essence at early levels, and can't upgrade their creation skills quickly -- they are too expensive. The creation level gaining mechanics are such that you really do need to make your creations as early as possible in order for them to get the full benefit.

 

Now, you certainly COULD play an agent-with-creations in G3, and it would be OK, but I think that's strictly worse than the shaper version. The creations are just going to be fewer and weaker, and with all those skill points sunk into creation skills, your magic skills are not quite going to be at the point where you can rely on dazing all the time. Agents save 1 skill point on every magic investment, but lose 2 on every shaping investment, and get less essence as well. You could run a shaper who pumps mental magic and it would just work better.

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Something that's been nagging me for a while: Shaping Skills. Do they only affect the initial level of creations when you shape them, or does having a high shaping skill carry any sort of benefit to the creations that have already been made? I ask this because of gear with bonuses to shaping skills, is there any point wearing it except when shaping, and then you ought to swap it out for another piece to use most of the time, or do they provide any bonus that makes them worth wearing all the time?

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Now, you certainly COULD play an agent-with-creations in G3, and it would be OK, but I think that's strictly worse than the shaper version. The creations are just going to be fewer and weaker, and with all those skill points sunk into creation skills, your magic skills are not quite going to be at the point where you can rely on dazing all the time. Agents save 1 skill point on every magic investment, but lose 2 on every shaping investment, and get less essence as well. You could run a shaper who pumps mental magic and it would just work better.

 

Ok. Touché. Didnt think about it that way.

 

Also as Triumph said shaping stats only boots when creating. Other than that its completelly useless. So dont wear it all the time.

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Exactly. Which is why i think agents deserve the best spot there. The health isnt handicapped. And they dont need essence.

What kind of agent doesn't need essence ?

So the only other worthwhile creation is the glahk in g3.

Are you serious ? The only thing a glaahk has going for it is its stun ability, melee damage is lousy in G3 and with the old ap system I can't see why you wouldn't always prefer ranged creations.

With guardians i agree. I finished the game with one. Not enough essence for a decent team and ablosutelly worthless with spells. Am i wrong or did they lowered even further the energy scaling for them?

The scaling is the same in G1-3, guardians get 1/3 the spellenergy of agents.
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You got what i meant about the essence. They dont need it as much as the rest since they dont really go for creations.

And the stunning ability is very usefull specially if you're a shaper. And in long battles. Now if you disagree on that. Its cool. Im not gonna force you to like them :)

 

Also i figured it would be the same. But i remember i couldnt cast mass energise and that was a bummer.

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But then comes the question why create 7 creations to have less often the same effect as one alone. As a shaper essence isnt that big of an issue(even if it was 7 high damage lower tier creations with high damage would prolly cost the same) so the cost doesnt matter much plus you get more xp. To be honest i prefer cryodrayks better than glaahks. And gazers. Drakons are a bit overpowered so not that much. But they all come in later in the game. Creations that get any benefit from levelling up have to be created at least by the middle of dohnal's. From those cryoas, vlishes, artilas(since roamers when available are comparable to the artila you have with you. If you have one) i guess maybe clawbugs? They arent my thing. Never actually created one. I like searing artilas. But probably not the best choice. Anyways my point is. Glaahks are from my point of view the last usefull creation that can benefit from leveling up. Only other worthwhile was poor wording i realise. But its not too far from the truth. Its not a sure thing again though. In the end it is based on the player's own experience.

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I'm really not sure what exactly you mean by

to have less often the same effect as one alone.....even if it was 7 high damage lower tier creations with high damage would prolly cost the same) so the cost doesnt matter much
could you reword that maybe ?
As a shaper essence isnt that big of an issue
Essence is certainly an issue early to mid-game when you can't just put all skillpoints into intelligence and skip out on creation skills, leadership, mechanics, healing, mental and blessing magic. Well you could I guess :)
Stuff about creations .....Only other worthwhile was poor wording i realise. But its not too far from the truth. Its not a sure thing again though. In the end it is based on the player's own experience.
So much simpler to look at facts http://spiderwebforu...-long-analysis/
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Because it's not "less often the same effect as one". It's a much, much greater effect, especially when fighting bigger groups of enemies.

 

Essence is a big issue for a Shaper if you want to get the most bang for your buck. This is mainly true because it makes such a big difference, in G3, to make your creations early on, when essence is more limited; also, early on, every investment in Int delays an investment in shaping skills, so it's a real trade-off.

 

Glaahks are among my favourite creations in terms of visual design and concept (and, certainly, name), and I've always tried to find a way to make them work. The stunning effect just isn't useful enough, in G1-3, to make up for the drawbacks Nim listed. They aren't just sub-par compared to vlish, but also compared to other cheap, effective creations, like artila or cryoa. (And in the later games, IIRC, the stunning effect was replaced with slow -- adding insult to injury).

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I'd agree the Shaper was more powerful in Geneforge 3, but I really enjoy going with a solo Agent and just steamrolling through the game without having to manipulate me and seven creations the whole game. I don't even make one creation the whole game.

 

And I pronounce it Genie-Forge. Gene-Forge just sounds awkward, it sounds more like a statement than a word, even though I'm pretty sure that it is the right pronunciation.

 

Edit: And boy did the Guardian get nerffed in G3. Not only was Parry toned down, sword damage got cut exactly in half. They're playable, but I'd peg them as the worst class in all the Geneforge games.

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Edit: And boy did the Guardian get nerffed in G3. Not only was Parry toned down, sword damage got cut exactly in half. They're playable, but I'd peg them as the worst class in all the Geneforge games.

Melee damage got cut to 5/9.

And I pronounce it Genie-Forge.

I always pronounced it Jen-eh-forge, even though Gene-Forge probably makes more sense.

:mad:
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For the PC, IIRC, there are d5 weapons (I think even Alwan gets d5) so it's actually closer to 6/9. It's worse for creations who basically all have d4. And to be fair, most magic and breath attacks also received small decreases during that time -- e.g., Firebolt did something along the lines of d5 to d4 to d3 over G1, G2, G3, I think. Nonetheless, it was a legit nerf for physical attacks.

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The most powerful defensively sure. Which matters only when you get hit a lot. I don't see how they can keep up to par offensively with a shaper tho,

I just completed Geneforge 2 using the parry guardian with boosted quick action and I was dishing out over 200 points of damage doubled most turns with second swing. That means even an ur-drakon doesn't last more than two or three attacks. Once you get the emerald chestguard you can get fifteen AP and take them down in one turn. Coupled with being pretty much unhittable, i would say that they compare very favorably with shapers.

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Hmm, I'm rechecking the item list here http://www.gamefaqs....ge-3/faqs/37624 and every weapon looks like it runs a 1-4D. Maybe Reaper Batons run on a higher Dice roll, but all swords run on the 1-4d and that's usually the guardians bread and butter. Where does the 5/9 or 6/9 come in?

 

I should note though, that the oozing blade is a sick weapon. It does straight acid damage instead of physical, allowing you to do nearly full damage to most creatures. It also slows and if you tack on a reviving crystal it will even heal you at the same time. Doesn't make up for all the nerfing though.

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I just completed Geneforge 2 using the parry guardian with boosted quick action and I was dishing out over 200 points of damage doubled most turns with second swing. That means even an ur-drakon doesn't last more than two or three attacks. Once you get the emerald chestguard you can get fifteen AP and take them down in one turn. Coupled with being pretty much unhittable, i would say that they compare very favorably with shapers.

You really think you can put out even close to the damage that 7 hasted and blessed creations can do ? If enemies had more HPs (say like G5) you'd see the difference.

 

I should note though, that the oozing blade is a sick weapon. It does straight acid damage instead of physical, allowing you to do nearly full damage to most creatures. It also slows and if you tack on a reviving crystal it will even heal you at the same time. Doesn't make up for all the nerfing though.

Oozing blade is ofc nice if it weren't for all those annoying Rots :( And the message spam everytime you hit someone. Though I don't use the reviving crystal in it anymore, golden crystal for more damage now always.
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Essence is certainly an issue early to mid-game when you can't just put all skillpoints into intelligence and skip out on creation skills, leadership, mechanics, healing, mental and blessing magic. Well you could I guess :)

 

 

By the time you can create a glaahk?

 

It is much better to look at facts. And i agree with the facts.But i still would rather get more xp. Means i get more skill points to spend on blessing healing etc... Still my point is for instance guardians are very powerfull in g2. Yet a lot of people will choose choose classes based on how comfortable they are with them. Same with creations. Until the 4th geneforge the vlish is absurdly powerfull, but i cant play with it(or any second tier creation for that matter) i know people who prefer using battle creations when shapers in a misguided atempt to make up for the shaper weaknesses. They don't tend to listen to all the arguments against it. Why? Because in the end it is a personal experience and they feel more comfortable with their admitably wrong choices. :p

 

Also tbh i actually wanted to create a post on the spelling but figured i'd be wasting everyone's time. But now that its here it does make me feel better about how my head spells it. I guess same holds for most? So... bear with us for a bit if you will.

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Wow. What an awesome forum.

 

I have decided to go with a Shaper. I am starting a new game right now. I am going to specialize and not worry about accessibility too much on my first playthrough.

 

A big thank you to everyone who took the time to respond. I learned a lot by reading the replies on this thread.

 

- Sam

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They don't tend to listen to all the arguments against it. Why? Because in the end it is a personal experience and they feel more comfortable with their admitably wrong choices

We can finish the game, completely, with our "wrong" choices. Sure, a couple of fights would require us to use a few more crystals\pods than usual. So what?

;)

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This game is hard. It's very easy to die. I can't take very many hits at all as a Shaper. Maybe I should pump a few points into endurance? So far I have been concentrating on the stats in this order:

 

Shaping

Spells (including spellcraft)

Intelligence

Leadership

Luck

 

Ignoring just about everything else.

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Endurance will help you stay alive as well as some strength to wear better armor to reduce damage. Raising armor and resistances will usually help the most in staying alive.

 

Most players run a Deadweight Shaper that stays well behind their creations and cast buffing and healing spells while letting the creations do the fighting. It's easy to die in this game with almost any build if you have nearby enemies. I played one game where no matter how far away from the enemy I kept my shaper including hiding behind walls, an enemy always ignored my creations to attack me.

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This game is hard. It's very easy to die. I can't take very many hits at all as a Shaper. Maybe I should pump a few points into endurance? So far I have been concentrating on the stats in this order:

 

Shaping

Spells (including spellcraft)

Intelligence

Leadership

Luck

 

Ignoring just about everything else.

 

You can add one or two. Along the game you'll get items, quests and canisters that will increase endurance for you. And you cant unspend the skill points. So and this is just according to me, just spend the skill points when you need to. But your build is good. Ignore battle shapping mostly besides plated bug nothing is usefull.

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I wouldn't bother too much with Endurance. You're going to have to keep your Shaper out of harm's way regardless -- and with a pack of creations, that isn't hard to do.

 

One thing to be aware of is that many enemy AIs will automatically target the last character who attacked them. So if your Shaper acts after your creations and throws firebolts at tough enemies with ranged attacks, you'll be hurting.

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If you're playing your shaper as a frontliner then maybe what you really want is a guardian ?

Putting points into Endurance is a waste as a shaper in G1, so is Luck. Don't go crazy on Leadership either. And don't expect levels to continue coming in as fast as they do in the beginning, it will take longer and longer to get more skillpoints which is why wasting them early on hurts so much here.

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You can add one or two. Along the game you'll get items, quests and canisters that will increase endurance for you.

I was very surprised to see how my Shaper's Endurance and HP increased throughout the game on my last run. There are many boosts to END, but mostly later/in more difficult areas. I believe I was controlling a soggy tissue masquerading as a hominid* for half the game, then a wimp who could maybe take a hit without dying for the next quarter, and suddenly a nigh-invincible demigod in the final quarter. By then, of course, you're already well trained in the art of letting others take your hits for you, but it's a great relief knowing that a single misclick probably won't result in a game over.

 

 

 

*It was okay though; the soggy tissue was itself controlling dinosaurs, giant scorpions, and horrible Cthulhu-spawn almost immediately. It was at least the third most-feared tissue in history.

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*It was okay though; the soggy tissue was itself controlling dinosaurs, giant scorpions, and horrible Cthulhu-spawn almost immediately. It was at least the third most-feared tissue in history.

 

I didn't want to wake up but this made it worth it. The whole comment was one of the best things i read the whole week. Thanks man xD

EDIT: you're competing with possible peace in syria here.

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