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Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?


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Dragonboy Dragonboy

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 12:12 PM #71 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

The rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire would prove my point that it is possible. The Roman Empire rode hard upon the Christians, murdering them, but in the end it became the defacto religion without a full-fledged war. Ideas spread and they can even topple Empires if they spread far enough.

Again, not saying that the Rebellion is wrong just that it could be and it would've been nice if they at least tried for something less destructive. I'm not saying to go full Awakened but at least try!

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 12:19 PM #72 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

The Feminists and the Civil Rights movement happened in democracies. In Terrestia, if you claim that shaping is bad and should be stopped, you're executed. You are not allowed to have such thoughts. ANY shaper that showed sympathy pre-rebellion for the creations was expelled. Like Greta was in the start of GF3. Any shaper that showed sympathy for the creations during the rebellion was considered rebel.

There was not a peaceful solution possible that would allow the creations to have rights and individuality.


And the Rebels under Litalia were not better in that regard in GF4. (Please don't tell me about how they are treated in GF3!) Litalia was hunting down and executing Trakovites in GF4. Greta didn't go out of her way to hunt them, but the rebels were also killing people for their ideas.


Quote

Again, not saying that the Rebellion is wrong just that it could be and it would've been nice if they at least tried for something less destructive.

Rebels were bad too, don't get me wrong.
If Ghaldring is about to win, it takes 2nd 2-year-long rebellion to break the drakons.
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Lilith Lilith

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 01:48 PM #73 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostThe Brazen Book, on 11 October 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

which is not to say the rebels aren't unconscionably excessively violent. a nonviolent rebellion was never in the cards, but there were options other than "genocidal reptilian overlords". shapers are honestly preferable to genocidal reptilian overlords.

of course, as it turns out in g5, genocidal reptilian overlords aren't on the cards in the long run either, even in the most pro-rebel ending. arguably that's a bit of a cop-out on jeff's part but it's still the ending that he wrote for that path

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 02:15 PM #74 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Quote

3. The first two Shapers back on the island (Goettsch and the PC) also failed to destroy it.

There's ANOTHER Shaper in Sucia island in GF1? :eek:
Meh... I didn't know that. :(


Quote

of course, as it turns out in g5, genocidal reptilian overlords aren't on the cards in the long run either, even in the most pro-rebel ending. arguably that's a bit of a cop-out on jeff's part but it's still the ending that he wrote for that path
We see signs of that from GF4. The Cryodrayks have rebelled. And the PC is tasked with defending them from any Drakon retaliation. Perhaps you can attack them for the Drakons, not sure.
In the finalle, the Cryodrayks, in a "show of goodwill" allow Akari Blaze and several Drakon Shapers lead the 100+ Unbound to Western Morass.
As if they could stop 100 Unbound... :)

Anyway, I find it perefectly logical and expected that the human\servile side of the Rebellion would turn on Drakons as they were weakened. They haven't been very shy about their plans for the new order.
And the way they have alienated the Drayks (and nobody takes Gazers for granted) they were actually alone.
With the war ravaging mainly the Shaper provinces instead of the rebel provinces since the creation of the Unbound 4 years pre GF5, the humans of the rebellion (left kinda aside and alone in the east) won't suffer much for war fatigue.
So it's entirelly plausible the humans, still with many veterans in their ranks but rested from little fighting, would take action against Drakons.


As for the Trakovites: I could wholly and whole-heartedly back a "no more sentient creations" rule. Shaping plants, thands, Fyoras, Kashiiks, etc seems fine to me. Even Battle Alphas seem semi-sentient and they could be allowed.
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Blxz Blxz

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 02:48 PM #75 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

***Possible Spoiler below Alhoon***

Spoiler

*****End Spoiler******

On a semi related note, I have just read that an AI has passed an IQ test at the level of a young child. This presents a good real-world comparison.

What happens if/when we create real intelligence? Should there be a limit on creating this intelligence and should it be controlled or should we make home kits so that we can all make our own sentient slave/AI-friend at home? What happens if that sentience is abused by people? What if that some of those sentient AI's murder people and start to become dangerous? Should they be destroyed?

Where do we draw the line? Can we replace 'AI' with 'Drayk'?

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 03:35 PM #76 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

EDIT: oh hey look a third page

View PostElyssaen, on 11 October 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

I'm not saying they weren't Shapers. I'm saying, if the Shaper Council didn't exist, wouldn't the likes of Barzahl, Agatha and Monarch have Shaped anyway? This is a setting where an individual can gain incredible personal power, and in a short time – look at Shaila, and none of us even think she was all that gifted in the grand scheme of things. In that kind of setting, Barzahlic behaviour is always going to happen.

Overall, does the existence of the Council make abominations of Shaping more or less likely? You can't blame the Shapers for having bad eggs: only for a] having a bad philosophy, or b] for making bad eggs more likely than they already were.
Don't forget that the Council itself had a fair number of bad eggs on it!  We don't meet the entire Council, and two of the members we do meet are clearly "bad eggs" by any standard!  If you're going to judge the Shapers by the good eggs, isn't it only fair you also judge the Rebels by the good eggs?  If our model Shapers are going to be Alwan and Rahul, then let our model Rebels be Greta and Gnorrel.

I think that's silly, though.  If you want to judge the ethical and practical principles of the Shapers at their best, pre-war, go for it.  But that's not the same thing as judging the Shapers as a whole -- especially not when you are comparing them to Rebels who never had the opportunity to be at their best, or to be pre-war.

View PostDragonboy, on 11 October 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Not all change has to be made through bloodshed, the Black Rights Movement and the Feminist Movement prove this.
Uh, neither one of those movements began under circumstances even remotely close to total biologically enforced enslavement.  You might recall, though, that before the black rights movement could happen (I assume you're referring to the U.S.), slavery had to end, and that ended up requiring a war.

View PostDragonboy, on 11 October 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Slarty, which G1 ending are you referring to?
Given that there are a few people in this thread who haven't played G1 yet, let's just call it the second seven-letter ending.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 03:38 PM #77 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View Postalhoon, on 11 October 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

There's ANOTHER Shaper in Sucia island in GF1? :eek:
Meh... I didn't know that. :(
For your sanity and to aid your sense of mystery, note that I said "the first two Shapers" -- I did not say how many Shapers are on Sucia in G1.

That said, while I realize this thread technically has "no spoilers" in the title, it's morphed into a big philosophical debate spanning the whole series, so I don't think you can fairly expect everyone to dance around all info about G1 and G2.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 04:03 PM #78 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostSlartibus, on 11 October 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

Don't forget that the Council itself had a fair number of bad eggs on it!  We don't meet the entire Council, and two of the members we do meet are clearly "bad eggs" by any standard!  If you're going to judge the Shapers by the good eggs, isn't it only fair you also judge the Rebels by the good eggs?  If our model Shapers are going to be Alwan and Rahul, then let our model Rebels be Greta and Gnorrel.

I think that's silly, though.  If you want to judge the ethical and practical principles of the Shapers at their best, pre-war, go for it.  But that's not the same thing as judging the Shapers as a whole -- especially not when you are comparing them to Rebels who never had the opportunity to be at their best, or to be pre-war.

But my point is, there are always going to be bad eggs. Is Rawal, say, a bad egg because he's a Shaper? I don't think he is. I think if you removed the Shaper Council, the technology would still have been discovered and there'd still be just as many bad eggs. The counter-argument, that perhaps the Shaper Council inspire Barzahlic behaviours, would be interesting and might have merit though – I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate and slipping into the first interesting stance I saw to take.

I can't speak about Gnorrel. I much preferred Greta's Rebellion to the ur-drakons, but I'm not sure what her vision for society was. I decided to replay G5 instead of rush to G1 (I'm considering stalling G1 until a remake, but probably won't manage), so will interrogate G5's Greta a bit soon. It's perfectly reasonable if she was focused on just winning the war – I think they're morally justified to revolt even without a clear plan for a better society.

But in terms of ultimate vision for dealing with the problem of a world where Shaping is possible, the servile enslavement issue is a blip. It's a huge, tragic blip, but most Shapers didn't know it was slavery of a free-minded species and the Shaper vision can and must evolve past the blip, free the serviles and stop creating anything with free will.

The safeguarding of Shaping is bigger – it's a philosophically murky, eternal problem. And I think the Shaper Council is, as Blxz said, basically right. The Trakovite world would be worse, and a triumphant Awakened/human Rebellion would need to construct something Shaper Council-like to re-establish that safeguarding.

(Aside: I'm really tempted to post a thread inviting people to rank all the game's little-s shapers on a few measures of power/skill. I'm dying to have conversations about Alwan vs. Rahul on power, Rawal vs. Barzahl on ingenuity, etc. Has it been done to death here already?)

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 04:35 PM #79 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

True, in the US slavery ended by a war but was it necessary? Other countries did not have to go to war to do this. The UK did it without a war,and did it even before the US, and I'm certain hosts of other countries did the same. It is pretty obvious that even without the Civil War slavery would've ended anyway as the world was turning in that direction. Do you really think that the Confederates would still have slavery in 2015? There is no western power that has slavery today and the Confederates would?

I must strongly state though, I do not mean the Civil War was wrong. It ended slavery in 1865 in the US, which actually should've ended even earlier in 1776. That is a great and tremendous thing for which Americans should be proud. It's just that we have to wonder by just how much years did it shorten things and at the cost of what. Was the Civil War worth the price paid? I heard arguments for yes and arguments for no. Both have enough of a valid argument that I'm hesitant to decide who, in our narrow hind-sight view of history, is really right.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 04:36 PM #80 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Quote

The safeguarding of Shaping is bigger – it's a philosophically murky, eternal problem. And I think the Shaper Council is, as Blxz said, basically right. ...
and a triumphant Awakened/human Rebellion would need to construct something Shaper Council-like to re-establish that safeguarding.
They did. :)
But they didn't enslave anyone. That was the one victory of the rebellion that validates them morally to a degree in my eyes.
Both sides did atrocities, both sides had a few good people, many bad people and countless opportunists.
But in the end, the rebellion victorious takes the "good parts" of shaping law (limits to power) and leaves behind the "barred creations should be killed on sight" and breaks the slavery of the serviles. In the end, even the Drakons realize that geneforges give too much power, too fast with very little control. And even Drakons agree to them being destroyed.



Quote


True, in the US slavery ended by a war but was it necessary? Other countries did not have to go to war to do this. The UK did it without a war,and did it even before the US, and I'm certain hosts of other countries did the same.

They did so during the enlightment and industrial age though. A time when not everyone was executed for having different ideas. And still in many cases, abolition did take a war, decades of bloody unrest, revolution or a coup to come into effect.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 04:50 PM #81 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

TO RETURN BACK TO GF3 IF POSSIBLE:

As said earlier, I miss the "?" marks of GF4-5 where they were telling me where is whom.
Now I have to wander all over the map to find who I am looking for.
Also, the graphics seem a bit... clunkier.

But I like the "Mysterious Shaper" (Litalia) that wanders around all powerful and fills the place with rogues.
I hear whispers about her, I find reports about her etc. Nobody knows anything...

I am still very early in the game as I didn't have much time to play because of social obligations. It takes me a couple of months to finish GF games (if we go by GF4 and GF5 standards).

Question:
How far can I go with BOTH Alwan and Greta in the party? I like their contribution to discussions.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 04:54 PM #82 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Agree totally alhoon but

Spoiler

You can take them until just before the third island but that's it. And yeah, Litalia is awesome.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:04 PM #83 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Meh... if I play the fence, as I usually do, will both of them leave? Or will one of those ungrateful novices stick with me to the end?
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Triumph Triumph

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:11 PM #84 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Your choice at the end of third island will permanently alienate one or the other of them, no matter what you do after that. If you stick with the same side after that, though, you keep the other one with you until the end of the game.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:13 PM #85 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

I don't think that's true.  I believe Greta leaves a bit earlier than the end no matter what you do.  She does stay for the bulk of the game though.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:15 PM #86 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostElyssaen, on 11 October 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

View PostSlartibus, on 11 October 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

If you're going to judge the Shapers by the good eggs, isn't it only fair you also judge the Rebels by the good eggs?
But my point is, there are always going to be bad eggs.
I don't care whether you say "there will always be bad eggs" or you count the bad eggs with the good.  But it's ridiculous to say "there will always be bad eggs" when looking at the Shapers, while judging the Rebels by the least reasonable among them.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:17 PM #87 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

I'm not sure you can alienate both permanently, although to be sure you can still tick off the other one off by giving contradicting answers.

I do think it's the end of the second isle not third.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:24 PM #88 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostDragonboy, on 11 October 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

True, in the US slavery ended by a war but was it necessary? Other countries did not have to go to war to do this. The UK did it without a war,and did it even before the US, and I'm certain hosts of other countries did the same.
Even in the late 1700's and early 1800's, slavery had a different footprint in countries like the UK.  I don't know of any strong power wherein slavery was as huge and essential a component of their economy, that abolished slavery in that period.  Given that the slave labour of serviles seems to be even more embedded in Shaper society than it was in the US South of that period, I don't think this arguments helps your case.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:25 PM #89 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostDragonboy, on 11 October 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

I'm not sure you can alienate both permanently, although to be sure you can still tick off the other one off by giving contradicting answers.

I do think it's the end of the second isle not third.
I don't think you can alienate either one temporarily, can you?  They leave if they disapprove of your final choices at the END of an isle, starting with isle three, IIRC.  They don't leave because of conversation options or even your hidden rebel/shaper reputation stat, IIRC.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:47 PM #90 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Hmm...looking through the scripts...I have realized that, contrary to what I always assumed, making the pro-rebel choice at the end of Dhonal's Isle does not seem to lock you in to the rebel side. You can still come back to the Shaper side on Gull Island and go thus into the endgame. Truly, the one and only decisive factor in whether you will be considered rebel or shaper for the endgames seems to be
Spoiler
There may be some alternate way to permanently fix your alignment prior to that, but I'm not sure what that could be.

Also, you can definitely take Greta with you to Isle of Spears (the last island), and I can't find any signs in the scripts that she deserts you sometime after that. There are departure speeches for both Alwan and Greta at the end of island 3 and island 4, but no others that I can find. So I'll stand by my conclusion that if your choice at the end of the third island matches you choice at the end of the fourth, you can keep the appropriate companion the remainder of the game.

Edit: actually, you apparently can alienate either Alwan or Greta when you leave island 2 as well (there are departure speeches for that island that I'd overlooked). Interesting. Looks like
Spoiler
is the trigger for offending Greta on island 2; not sure what will tick off Alwan there...

Edited by Triumph, 11 October 2015 - 05:52 PM.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 06:02 PM #91 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Looking at this https://en.wikipedia...lavery_timeline I find that Russia freed 23 Million serfs in 1861, about 36 percent of their population. A little Google search tells me the US had 4 million slaves in 1860 before the Civil War, or about 12% of the population. I dunno how integral 36% percent of their population was to their economy but I assume it was significant. That said, as Alhoon pointed out, it was the time of industrialization. It made slavery slip to the wayside as people had less of a need to own slaves and so their outlook on things changed. Industrialization is something Geneforge does not have and so yes, I agree serviles are a much bigger pickle than slaves were in the mid 19th Century. (Although I got say, a Geneforge sequel game that would take place in 2015esque year, with all the attendant technological advances we have, piques my interest.)

And yes serfs are not the same as slaves but neither had real rights.

I didn't mean you could talk Alwan or Greta to go away, sorry if it came off that way. I meant you can give them the wrong response when they talk to you, which will prompt them to give you a scowl or something along those lines.

And wow, I didn't know that you could go back to the Shapers on the fourth isle. Learn something knew about the game every time. Also, it would seem apparently that you can get rid of both of them if there's a speech for isle 3 and 4. But Matt P's most excellent FAQ on GameFaqs on Geneforge 3 confirms my comment about alienating one them all the way on isle 2. Maybe there is a check on isles 2.3 and 4?



Edit: You sniped me Triumph. I'll get you next time.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 06:12 PM #92 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Greta didn't go out of her way to hunt them
No, but she said that she agreed with the Shaper's decisions to hunt down and execute all Trakovites.

And wow, I didn't know that you could go back to the Shapers on the fourth isle. Learn something knew about the game every time. Also, it would seem apparently that you can get rid of both of them if there's a speech for isle 3 and 4. But Matt P's most excellent FAQ on GameFaqs on Geneforge 3 confirms my comment about alienating one them all the way on isle 2. Maybe there is a check on isles 2.3 and 4?
Yes.

Spoiler

How far can I go with BOTH Alwan and Greta in the party? I like their contribution to discussions.
Until the end of Dhonal Isle (3rd island), just as long as you don't give Lankan the canister or kill him on the second island.  If you grab the strange canister from Diwaniya's basement, then don't enter the rebel camp until you hand it over to the purity officer at Dhonal Keep.

Also, the graphics seem a bit... clunkier.
Oh, man, you're going to hate G2 and G1, then.  G3 is actually a huge graphical improvement over G2-- the biggest difference by far between one Geneforge game and its immediate successor.  I mean, you think G3 has "clunky" graphics?

I  don't think you can alienate either one temporarily, can you?
No.  You can take the Shaper path on Dhonal, then take the Rebel path on Gull, but Greta still won't join you.  Alwan you don't have a chance to speak to since the whole school (including him) will be hostile, even though he has a line in the Academy dlg file where he refuses to rejoin you.

Shaping plants, thands, Fyoras, Kashiiks, etc seems fine to me.
You'll change your mind once you meet Torsten in Ft. Kentia, trust me.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 06:17 PM #93 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Serfdom and chattel slavery: again, not the same thing, not the same circumstances.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 06:22 PM #94 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Um, I already agreed with that in the above post.



Also, the graphics seem a bit... clunkier.
Oh, man, you're going to hate G2 and G1, then.  G3 is actually a huge graphical improvement over G2-- the biggest difference by far between one Geneforge game and its immediate successor.  I mean, you think G3 has "clunky" graphics?

I'd agree with this but man do I hate the G3 Guardian graphic. I way prefer the original one.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 06:40 PM #95 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Not me.  I hate the original one.  Makes me feel like the character is a robot.  Granted the G1~2 sprite is a more accurate representation of full Guardians, though (while I think the G3 sprite is more representative of the apprentice Guardians)

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 06:58 PM #96 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

For GF1, I have already taken the graphics mod. I am also slowly working to change some creations (Battle Alphas) to something prettier.

Guardians ... seem the same to me from GF3 to GF5.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Karan S'jet Karan S'jet

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 09:38 PM #97 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Serfs have leverage. You need serfs to grow your food, and it's hard to grow new serfs. Serviles do not have leverage, because they are replaceable. Also, a large part of the motivation for Russia freeing its serfs was that it was widely expected to empower the nation economically and militarily, because that had been happening in the rest of Europe and everyone could clearly see it. The Shapers do not seem to be aware of the benefits of transitioning from a feudal(ish? Shaper government is unclear.) society to a capitalist one.
The mutilation of the self is the only path towards real personal growth.
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
I MUST KNOW WHAT YOU SEE
TELL ME. . .
WHAT AM I?
I CANNOT SEE

Triumph Triumph

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Posted 12 October 2015 - 03:38 AM #98 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View Postalhoon, on 11 October 2015 - 06:58 PM, said:

Guardians ... seem the same to me from GF3 to GF5.

You are correct. The original G1 graphic for Shapers and Guardians got reused in G2, but then changed in G3. Th new G3 Shaper and Guardian graphics persisted for the last two games of the series. I actually rather prefer the G1/G2 depiction of those characters. For whatever reason, Jeff didn't feel any need to tweak the Agent graphic, and it stayed basically the same all the way through.

However, overall, the single biggest artistic shift in the series was, IIRC, between G4 and G5.

"Dikiyoba didn't know what to say for your negatives, Triumph. Dikiyoba supposes you must just be that awesome." - Dikiyoba
"Triumph == Santa Claus? This explains... nothing." - Dintiradan
"Per usual, Triumph said it better." - Slarty


alhoon alhoon

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Posted 12 October 2015 - 03:59 AM #99 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

I would agree. At last we had more than one model for people.
And more stuff.


Now, if only GForge could be re-released using GF5 graphics and system...
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Lilith Lilith

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Posted 12 October 2015 - 04:13 AM #100 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View Postalhoon, on 12 October 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

I would agree. At last we had more than one model for people.
And more stuff.


Now, if only GForge could be re-released using GF5 graphics and system...

There are plans for this to happen eventually, but only after the Avernum trilogy remakes and Avadon trilogy are complete.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 12 October 2015 - 05:24 AM #101 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

I have no idea how long that would take. Where are the in the remakes?
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Triumph Triumph

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Posted 12 October 2015 - 05:46 AM #102 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Jeff's routine has tended to be to alternate between making an all-new game and making remakes. Jeff is currently working on Avadon 3. Based on his recent pattern, after that he'll remake Avernum 3. After that, if he stayed true to pattern, he'd probably make another totally new game, and then after that, he might get to a Geneforge remake? But that's years down the road, so it's hard to make any definite predictions.

"Dikiyoba didn't know what to say for your negatives, Triumph. Dikiyoba supposes you must just be that awesome." - Dikiyoba
"Triumph == Santa Claus? This explains... nothing." - Dintiradan
"Per usual, Triumph said it better." - Slarty


Hyena of Ice Hyena of Ice

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Posted 12 October 2015 - 11:57 AM #103 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

For whatever reason, Jeff didn't feel any need to tweak the Agent graphic,
I don't think it was a lack of need so much as a lack of resources.  The original Agent used Victoria 1 and some fantasy skins made for her and I think G2.  By G3 Strout probably wanted to use V3, but there were never, to my knowledge, any similar green skins sold at DAZ or the now defunct Poserpros (I don't know if Strout bought Poser products from any other store or not)  The remade Agent status portrait in G5 uses Victoria 3 who lacked a simple green fantasy skin.
She theoretically could have loaded a non-fantasy skin into GIMP and messed around with Color Decompose + toggle the HSV in order to get a green skin, then carefully erase the areas around the cheeks and lips (something that I have done when I want a nice fantasy skin), but it would have been a LOT of work, and I see very few examples of sprites/etc. that Linda didn't use straight out of the box.
And before anyone says anything, I don't know if image masks were even available for Victoria 3, and Strout only used reduced resolution skins for sprite and scene renders in G5  (image masks/dual layer shaders slow render time by a bit-- the additional render time woulfd have been significant back in those days)
You can tell that Strout tried to make Esther's status portrait skin Green in G5 postrender, but only succeeded in making her look jaundiced.

As for the Guardian, the model used for him in G1 was a very old and dated product by G3, and would not have looked very good with its improved graphics.  Hell, the helmet was used for the A4/5 metal helm items, and you can see the polygons!  Imagine how awful it would have looked in his status portrait barring a LOT of postwork!  Also back in 2005, AFAIK, there weren't any suitable armor sets for Michael 2 that looked similar to the G1 Guardian.

Translation: I don't think it was a lack of need so much as a lack of resources.  It was most likely due to a lack of fantasy skins for the current Poser female character (Victoria 3) that would have been used by the G3 era.  The green skin texture used on Esther in G1 was for a different character model and could not be used on Victoria 3.
As for the Guardian, by G3, the model used for the G1 guardian was old and so low-poly that it would have looked crappy with G3's improved graphics, just like the metal helmet item in A4, and there were no suitable replacement outfits for the current character models that looked like the G1 Guardian's.
Poser and Bryce are the programs that Strout uses to render the sprites and background objects (but not ground tiles) for the SS games, going at least as far back as the original Avernum 1.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 12 October 2015 - 02:35 PM #104 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Good thing you put the translation. :)
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 14 October 2015 - 04:09 PM #105 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Finally able to play a bit GF3 again.
I see now why Litalia tried to work with the Monarch in the beginning of the rebellion. She had filled the wood with rogues!
Rogues that don't differate between shaper and civilian or servile. Good going Litalia.
And as I recall, in GF4 Rebels also made spawners to bog down shapers.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound




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