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Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?


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Nim Nim

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 08:01 AM #36 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostSlartibus, on 10 October 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

Yeah.  Also there's the whole "let's shape some humans into a supposedly inferior race and then enslave them for eternity" thing.  Minor problem there.
Apart from Learned Darian telling the player that he believes that to be the case, Is there any actual proof I'm forgetting ?

Lilith Lilith

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 08:10 AM #37 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostNim, on 10 October 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Apart from Learned Darian telling the player that he believes that to be the case, Is there any actual proof I'm forgetting ?

Yep.

Spoiler


Nim Nim

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 08:30 AM #38 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Lilith, neither of those are about "let's shape some humans into a supposedly inferior race and then enslave them for eternity".

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 08:48 AM #39 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Whether the serviles were transformed from humans or made out of essence doesn't justify the Shapers enslaving them for eternity. Killing them when they think they get too smart etc.

My parents made me. I was literaly shaped in my mother's belly for 9 months. Not only that, but it took me years to be somewhat self-sufficient and my parents were paying for me for even more years.

And yet, although my parents labored and suffered for me and my sister a million times more than a shaper about a servile made, they don't ask anything from me but the occasional chore around the house when I visit them and they don't consider me rogue and kill me if I disagree with them.
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Posted 10 October 2015 - 09:02 AM #40 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

There may not be actual proof that serviles were shaped from humans, but it seems to be the obvious assumption, and there's definitely no evidence suggesting they came from any other source.  And as people said above, the "enslaved for eternity" part is not disputable and bad enough on its own.
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Posted 10 October 2015 - 09:07 AM #41 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Quote

The rebels just seem like bond villains. It is like saying, "Why does the government ban nuclear proliferation and tightly control nuclear power stations? Their rules are harsh and bad. We should have freedom to use nuclear power in our own homes too. Lets get bombs and blow stuff up and then we can all have uranium baths."
Although perhaps I am just limited in my viewpoint?

My viewpoint is:
Consider the following
The government is a cabal of electronics and software engineers. They alone are allowed to know how to write programs and build electronic devices.
If you're found knowing how to make even a calculator (program or machine) without having proper brain-washing training, you're executed. But they don't stop there. To be allowed to learn enough so you can act as customer service and perhaps technician that makes simple repairs, you have to get license and you're monitored (people caring for creations or smithing shaped steel). The same scrunity goes for people making capacitors, semiconductors and coils etc. (Outsiders rising batons, mines and living tools).
Not only that, although they certainly help with their knowledge, they use their knowledge of electronics and software to be the unquestioned leaders and to keep society under scrunity and control. They tell them about the terrible havoc electronic devices can wrought, how a programmer could unleash a virus on the net to damage all their internet-based machines etc. Through the centuries, they have brain-washed large swaths of society to think that this is the way things should be.
Oh, and the government keeps slaves too, of a race they say they modified ages ago using computer programs to pick and choose. They treat them kinda OK while they work unquestionally but kill them without hesitation if they show too much independence.

Is knowledge about electronics and software dangerous? Yes.
Can in the wrong hands do a lot of harm? Yes.
Does this justify a government of technocrats to decide that they alone are responsible enough and should control ANY access to these technologies and research about it? Hell, no!

And aside of this power-hoarding... there's the problem of enslaving sentient creatures. Not only serviles, but anything.


I can very clearly see why an insurgency may start under such a regime. And with war, nasty things will happen from all sides. Although yes, the rebels are kinda worse. But they fight dirty for the good cause.
Why I may go pro-shaper in this one? Cause the end doesn't justify the means! Litalia KILLED students. She could well just have them captured or something!
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ThricebornPhoenix ThricebornPhoenix

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 09:37 AM #42 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostNim, on 10 October 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Apart from Learned Darian telling the player that he believes that to be the case, Is there any actual proof I'm forgetting ?
I don't recall Darian saying this, but Sage Clois* (G1, Quiet Marshes) does. Her basis for this belief is a high degree of similarity of intellect, based on long observation of Serviles and Shaper writings, which is not conclusive but worth considering.

One thing we can accept as fact is that
Spoiler
That the Serviles may originally have been another human tribe that was warped by raw Shaping ages ago is not certain, but nor is it at all hard to believe.

I have said before that G1 shows several ways in which the Shapers were becoming more enlightened since the events of 200 years ago. Actually, the process has probably been slow and steady for the last few thousand years.



*Mysteriously,
Spoiler
I can't even imagine what these two observations, obviously clues, are hinting at. I don't believe Clois is even referenced in later games, so no help there.
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Hyena of Ice Hyena of Ice

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 09:49 AM #43 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

You have to read carefully, and read in-between the lines, but G3 does a good job at showing just how oppressed outsiders are.  Again, you have to read between the lines in some areas.  A prime example is Alwan's reaction in the Sea Caves.  Read between the lines there to find out what outsiders have to put up with from Shapers.  Also, make sure to pump your leadership up to 10 as soon as you can (mechanics should be given a priority as well)  These should be your first priority skills, also make sure not to boost Missle Weapons, QA, or Parry until you buy a couple levels from the hunter/soldier in San Ru (make sure you're pro-shaper or else he can't train you.)  Don't bother if you're a Guardian though, because the price isn't worth it.  If you're a Guardian, then hold off of levels in Spellcraft until you buy a couple levels from Grechen in Dhonal Inner Keep.

Also, make sure to boost Alwan's and Greta's INT early, or else they'll get the fear status every time their HP get low.  Dumb, I know.  I would suggest raising it by at least 1 point per level they gain.

Also, some tricks and other misc info:

--There is a cheat that I have discovered in the minefield woods, but it takes a lot of game loads and carefulness to do.
You can actually disarm multiple mines in a chain, but it is risky.

In order to do this, you must have triggered more than one mine.  Any mines that you triggered before deactivating the first one will not be destroyed in the chain.  You can then use your remaining AP to disarm these mines.  Be warned that if you fail to disarm them before the next round, then they will go off.  Without a speed pod, you can disarm up to two additional mines.  With a speed pod, up to 4 (5 is possible, but unlikely)  Save a speed pod or two for the last/innermost mines.

--The infamous creation thief bug-- as long as you are not visible to anyone, you can send your creations/Alwan/Greta to steal anything lying around.  Note that they still cannot enter the Sea Cave rebels' storeroom nor Shaper Jolana's bedroom without turning them hostile.

--You need 7 or 8 leadership to convince the thahds at the Ambush bridge to leave, for a lot of experience.  Use a speed pod right before talking to them, enter combat IMMEDIATELY after talking to them, and use icy crystals to try to kill them when they try to leave.

--There is a sack completely hidden under some tree branches at the Minefield woods, in the clearing with the dead servile.  Scroll your cursor over the tree branches to the right of it.  It contains some grain.

--There is a weirdass bug in this game that you should be wary of.  I can't remember precisely how it is triggered-- I THINK, what I did, is that I clicked on the attack spell I wanted to cast (or a gem)-- then clicked on the sword icon, then clicked on the floor, so that I get the "finish what you're doing first" message.  Then I clicked on myself-- due to a bug, I attacked myself.  Make sure you don't do this; it hurts.  Badly.

--Save before checking any of the sparkly crystal pillars in the Kentia Mines.  Whether it gives lovely or beautiful crystals is determined when you load the game.  So if you get a blue one, load the game and keep trying until you get a red one.

--Save before disarming blue mines (excepting minefield woods, these always create monsters)  Sometimes killing the monster will net you better experience.

--NEVER EVER disarm the mines in the Roamer Marsh.  You will get far more experience for killing the monsters they create, plus said monsters can drop some really nice goodies.

--There is a pot hidden in one of the houses at the Rebel Camp (I think the first one to the left)  It is completely hidden behind a wall, so scroll your cursor over it until you find it.

--Each set of the warped thahds in the Infested Shore will give you exp/drops the first time you kill them, not none after that.

--There is a pot hidden behind the southern wall of Mooney's shop in Ft. Wilton.  It contains two research notes which you can take.

--The only respawning monsters in this game are the rabid rats in Fort Wilton's grain silo.  So make sure you keep your items stored here.  They will give you experience and may give you item drops that you can sell for a nice bit of cash.

--Item drops are determined when you enter a zone.  So when you enter, save the game.  Then kill things and make a mental note of what drops a goodie.  Then re-load the game and kill whichever monsters dropped something nice, then leave, heal, and come back.
In particular, rogue thahds and spawners give nice drops.  Spawners have a 75% chance each of dropping a lovely, beautiful crystal, and a gem.  So make sure to use this trick in the Inner Mines.  All spawners have a 75% chance of dropping one thorn, and a...  50% chance I think of dropping another one, so try to get at least one thorn from every specimen.  Rogue Thahds have a 5% chance of dropping a platinum ring.
Other enemies worth farming from are Rogue Drayks (gems), War Bred Serviles (acid thorns and gold rings), and servile cultists/casters (platinum rings)  Rogue Battle Betas can drop either a carapace of chainmail, and battle gammas may drop an iron mail.  BEWARE!!  Any generic-named monster without a "rogue" before its name won't drop anything.  E.g. Battle Beta instead of Rogue Battle Beta (which, in fact, is a unique case because the generic and rogue ones are completely different colors)

Nim Nim

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 10:24 AM #44 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostThricebornPhoenix, on 10 October 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

I don't recall Darian saying this, but Sage Clois* (G1, Quiet Marshes) does.
Correct, I got Darian and Clois mixed up there.

View PostHyena of Ice, on 10 October 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Also, make sure to pump your leadership up to 10 as soon as you can (mechanics should be given a priority as well)  
That's a waste considering the amount of items that give LS (and mech).

Quote

Don't bother if you're a Guardian though, because the price isn't worth it.
What exactly is a guardian going to spend his money on otherwise ? It's not as if you're starving for cash especially when you then advocate all kinds of hijinks to get even more money.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 10:47 AM #45 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

I assume Hyena means "including items" although I can't be sure (post seemed too spoily. :) I didn't read it all)

As for what a Guardian would spend his money on? Buying a house after the war of course! I always try to end the game with a lot of money, cause money talks.
It seemed it was a waste in my GF4 ending though, cause I was executed for sabotaging the machinery and I wasn't considered "pro-rebel" enough.

In GF5, my "official" ending, I was hording gems and Jewelry from Drayks and dragons. I ended the game with like 30-40 gems that I never had the time to sell. And the house I had claimed in Penta (to drop things) had lots of items that I didn't need but was "too good" to sell. You know, like aaaaaall those NPCs that tell you "here, have this. I used it years ago and it will serve you better now".
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Nim Nim

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 11:12 AM #46 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View Postalhoon, on 10 October 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

I assume Hyena means "including items" although I can't be sure (post seemed too spoily. :) I didn't read it all)
His post isn't really spoilery, more weird OCD stuff. And 10 LS is actually not that bad advice if you have never played G3. Not gonna spoil anymore tho unless you want to   :p

Quote

As for what a Guardian would spend his money on? Buying a house after the war of course! I always try to end the game with a lot of money, cause money talks.
It seemed it was a waste in my GF4 ending though, cause I was executed for sabotaging the machinery and I wasn't considered "pro-rebel" enough.

Well at least you didn't give the shapers the unbound specs and then went for the rebels. That one is a riot. :D

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 11:19 AM #47 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

What? I didn't know that it was possible. I found some info about the Unbound, not really their specifications since Drakons are as bad as the shapers and most info was in Akhari's head but I didn't have the choice to give them.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 11:46 AM #48 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

The specs are in Quessa-Uss, Alwan wants you to steal them. Let me guess, you didn't help the shapers enough and thus Poryphra Ruins was hostile ?

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 11:58 AM #49 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Shapers want to control everything.  Shaping, magic, creations, and they run the government.  

While the reasons for rebellion aren't always well presented, the reasons to support the Shapers is more of we are in charge and therefore the best alternative.  The examples of out of control shaping are usually caused by Shapers and less by others.
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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 12:12 PM #50 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Porypha ruins were not hostile, but although I helped the infiltrators, Alwan kept saying to me "You need to prove your loyalty more" till I left for the final trek of the journey.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 12:27 PM #51 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostRandomizer, on 10 October 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

  While the reasons for rebellion aren't always well presented, the reasons to support the Shapers is more of we are in charge and therefore the best alternative.
The shapers are simply the least shitty alternative. The drakons are way worse than the shapers, trakovites are utterly deluded, the takers are just mad and I'm not sure what to call the barzites, nothing positive tho. So that leaves the awakened and the shapers. And it's not as if the awakened plans weren't just waiting to blow up in their face.

Quote

The examples of out of control shaping are usually caused by Shapers and less by others.
Unbound and the bugs under Astorias region are two easy examples of out of control shaping from the rebels. But of course most of the out of control shaping was done by Shapers, they had exclusive control over it for centuries d'oh.

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 12:51 PM #52 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

The Drakons, at least till near the end of the rebellion don't use slaves. And while the Drakons made the Unbound and the Shredbugs ... Taygen made a disease that if unleased kills much of his own people. So you have two ruthless factions that include extremists that prefer to see the world burn than lose to their enemies.
BUT... one of these factions doesn't condone slavery and the Drakons are facing extinction just for existing. Hence, they have an excuse for acting as ruthlessly.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

ThricebornPhoenix ThricebornPhoenix

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 01:02 PM #53 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostNim, on 10 October 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

Unbound and the bugs under Astorias region are two easy examples of out of control shaping from the rebels. But of course most of the out of control shaping was done by Shapers, they had exclusive control over it for centuries d'oh.
The entire series happened because they lost control, in a bad way, through their own carelessness and complacency. Unbound, giant bugs, etc. - basically all of the horrors seen in later games - could never have happened if the Shapers were not frequently careless.
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You should try it. It’s peculiarly enlightening." - Neil Gaiman

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 01:05 PM #54 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

While the Drakons have absolutely no excuse for the Shredbugs, and made them ONLY to provoke Astoria to attack the rebels again, hence to destroy her along with the rest, the Unbound are a different story.
The Drakons made the Unbound at a time the Rebellion was losing on every front and Drakons knew that if they lost, they would be all be killed for the crime of existing. Rebel soldiers may receive a pardon or hide in the population. Not so for Drakons. Hence, the Unbound was a desperate measure at a Desperate time.

In my opinion, the Shapers were worse. They were followed by the Drakons as 2nd-worse. Then we had the more moderate rebels (Greta-minded people led by Greta) that if the Drakons win and try to oppress them, they fight back. These have some atrocities under their belt but they are better than both Shapers and Drakons. These are followed by Alwan's patriotic, non-atrocity commiting shapers. If Alwan wins, he allows some intelligent creations to exist in exile but doesn't allow more of them to be born or created. Again, Alwan-minded shapers have some atrocities in their hands but at least they fight with a sense of honor. And finally, we have the good guys. Astoria's rebels. Astoria is visionary enough to understand that Serviles are allowed to think and even knowing the risks to her life betrays the core shaper philosophy. She does this knowing how bad it will reflect on her but wants to end the devastating war as soon as possible. Even if that means handing the victory to the OTHER side. But, she realizes that Drakons will never allow shapers to exist peacefully so she leads the assault that claims Ghaldring's life.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 01:17 PM #55 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

"Alwan" and "non-atrocity-committing" don't go together well.  He's certainly not the worst of the bunch, but he is a military leader who spews forth quite venomous hatred of his enemies, full of all the old Shaper stereotypes.  Mainly I'd question whether he is in any way more ethical than Greta.  I'd say they're on about the same level.

One of the fascinating things about G1 is that the three sect leaders are all extremely principled, though their principles obviously differ quite tremendously.
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Posted 10 October 2015 - 01:26 PM #56 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View Postalhoon, on 10 October 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

The Drakons, at least till near the end of the rebellion don't use slaves.
They weren't far off. They treated serviles as equals in the beginning of the rebellion, when you get to G2 and talked to some of the takers you'll understand. By G5 Ghaldring made it pretty clear where things were going. How did it go ? "The time of the humans is over, the time of the serviles shall never come" Something like that iirc ?

Quote

And while the Drakons made the Unbound and the Shredbugs ... Taygen made a disease that if unleased kills much of his own people.
What ? Taygen certainly doesn't see creations as his own people. And while iirc it killed some humans, that was an unintended sideeffect ?

View PostThricebornPhoenix, on 10 October 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

The entire series happened because they lost control, in a bad way, through their own carelessness and complacency. Unbound, giant bugs, etc. - basically all of the horrors seen in later games - could never have happened if the Shapers were not frequently careless.
Nobody is disputing that ? I am disputing that the drakons or the rebel humans are going to be more careful.

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 01:59 PM #57 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Ghaldring says that before he dies. :) But yes, Greta is quite clear where things are heading and has warned the player AND Ghaldring that the serviles and humans will rebel again if they feel oppressed.
And while Ghaldring's drakons feel themselves superior, they don't treat the serviles as slaves. They treat them bad, but at least they allow them to be free.


Quote

And while iirc it killed some humans, that was an unintended sideeffect

Yes, Taygen expected it to have some minor effects. And yet, this talented Shaper shaped a disease that did more than what it was meant to do and he paid the price since he lost his consort, the love of his life.
So, Taygen lowered himself to biological warfare (despicable on its own, as much as the Shredbugs) and he failed to predict the extend of the damage.
Hence that disproves that Shapers are either more moral or more responsible than the Drakons in my eyes.


Quote

Nobody is disputing that ? I am disputing that the drakons or the rebel humans are going to be more careful.
Oh, we don't dispute that. Not even the rebels themselves dispute that (at least in GF4 and GF5 I don't know about GF3 yet).
We dispute that the Shapers are the less bad choice or that they are the least wrong and least evil.

Quote

he is a military leader who spews forth quite venomous hatred of his enemies, full of all the old Shaper stereotypes.  Mainly I'd question whether he is in any way more ethical than Greta.  I'd say they're on about the same level.
Indeed. Both true.
However, Greta is not as bad as Drakons or Litalia in GF4. Litalia on GF5 takes the cake IMO.
What I mean is that Alwan and Greta are both fanatics, both have innocent blood in their hands... and both are not bad considering they're leaders in a civil war. You can't expect them to be actually good people. :) You can expect them to not unleash diseases or mad killing machines though.
Most rebellions in history had revolutionaries and counter-revolutionaries worse than Greta and Alwan. Look at the French revolution for example.
And most leaders (I include even minor ones like General crowly etc) in GF4 and GF5 are as bad orworse than Alwan and Greta in my opinion.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 02:17 PM #58 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View Postalhoon, on 10 October 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

And while Ghaldring's drakons feel themselves superior, they don't treat the serviles as slaves. They treat them bad, but at least they allow them to be free.
They went from equals to treating them bad in what, around 5 years or so ? Just give it a few more years ;)

Quote

Yes, Taygen expected it to have some minor effects. And yet, this talented Shaper shaped a disease that did more than what it was meant to do and he paid the price since he lost his consort, the love of his life.
So, Taygen lowered himself to biological warfare (despicable on its own, as much as the Shredbugs) and he failed to predict the extend of the damage.
Hence that disproves that Shapers are either more moral or more responsible than the Drakons in my eyes.
Putting Taygens actions on all the Shapers is disingenious. There is a reason he developed it in secret and released it without approval once Ghaldring was dead (that's how it was right ?).

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 03:28 PM #59 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

I don't know how long it took but I don't disagree with you. :) Nor the Serviles and Greta disagreed with you. They pounced on the Drakons even before the Drakons finished the war. That's why in Ghaldring's ending there is a small part of Terrestia under Shaper control; The humans and servilles attacked before the war was over.


Well, Rawal left the battlefield, allowing the others to tire themselves out so he could dominate the empire after the war. And he created the control tools to kill those that displeased him and a geneforge, probably to create his own army of lifecrafters, all with a control tool to be under his thumb. Hardly a responsible use of shaping talents.


And it's equally disingenuous to put the actions of a few Drakons on all the rebels. Not even all the Drakons agreed with the creation of the shredbugs. That's why Litalia wanted them out (aside from moving Astoria).
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Posted 10 October 2015 - 03:30 PM #60 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Putting Taygens actions on all the Shapers is disingenious. There is a reason he developed it in secret and released it without approval once Ghaldring was dead (that's how it was right ?).
Indeed.  It's just like blaming the actions of Agatha, Barazahl, Zakhary, the Shaper Monarch, Litalia, or even Danell on the Shapers.  These were rogue shapers, who violated some of the most sacred of Shaper laws, and they did so on remote islands far from the prying eyes of the council.

The Drakons, at least till near the end of the rebellion don't use slaves.
What do you call the forefathers of The Unbound, then?

What I mean is that Alwan and Greta are both fanatics, both have innocent blood in their hands... and both are not bad considering they're leaders in a civil war. You can't expect them to be actually good people. :) You can expect them to not unleash diseases or mad killing machines though.
Greta was a proponent-- AND COLLABORATOR-- of unleashing the Unbound in G4, despite knowing that the majority of the people AND CREATIONS of Terrestria (the very people she was supposedly fighting for!!) would die-- while she, like the Drakons, gets to hole up safely in the Northforge Citadel, how convenient!  I would say that makes her worse than Alwan, and that is saying something.

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 03:41 PM #61 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

As I said above, it's equally disingenuous to put the actions of a few Drakons on all the rebellion. :)
(PS. Monarch was not a shaper, whatever title he was using. Nor was Rawal even if he was in the council. Those two have betrayed the Shaper law and morals so much that calling them shapers is like calling Litalia one in my opinion.)


The forefathers of the Unbound? I don't understand. Unbound were created in big vats, growing slowly through months.


Greta was a proponent of unleasing the Unbound cause the Rebellion seemed to be lost. And while she urges the player to not back away, she's clearly troubled by what they are doing.
In the Trakovite ending, the Greta-side of the rebellion prohibits the Drakons from making more Unbound. In the full-rebel ending, the Drakons ignore the Greta-rebels and make more despite the disagreement of the humans and serviles. Also, the rebels don't hole up in North Citadel. They make forays, take back Illya province etc. They haven't holed up even in GF5 that is 4 years after the GF4.
Again, Greta is not a nice person but few leaders in civil wars are.
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Posted 10 October 2015 - 10:08 PM #62 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

The thing is, the shapers core tenets were that if shaping were taken from their hands and used in an uncontrolled fashion all hell would break loose.

The fact that the chain of events occurred pretty much immediately upon the rediscovery of Sucia Isle really validates a lot of their central beliefs.

- Drayks were too dangerous and smart to be allowed to exist. Correct on all counts since they eventually led to the creation of Drakons, etc.
- Uncontrolled shaping should be banned. Correct. The whole thing was an unmitigated disaster as soon as others got control. It didn't take centuries to fall apart. It wasn't generations of uncontrolled shaping. It literally happened immediately in G2 onwards.

And the presence of Zakhary and co., Agatha, and the host of other incompetents does not reflect on the fact that the shapers were right 100%. Those were shapers who broke the rules and caused events to unfold.

Now, I have yet to play G5 so I have not got the full story quite yet but so far every shaper teaching has been fully validated. Just a pity they were so bad at following their own rules. Sucia should have been purged not Barred.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 01:24 AM #63 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

One thing I find annoying in GF3 after playing 4-5 is that there seems to be no "?" that give me descriptions inside a map. I have to either remember where everyone is, or wander around them map trying to locate them again.

I can also say that I don't like the servile and batte alpha graphics, being used to GF4 sprites.
I managed to get Serviles like GF4-5 back, but it took time. Now, I have to do it for the Alphas.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:29 AM #64 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostBlxz, on 10 October 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

The thing is, the shapers core tenets were that if shaping were taken from their hands and used in an uncontrolled fashion all hell would break loose.

The fact that the chain of events occurred pretty much immediately upon the rediscovery of Sucia Isle really validates a lot of their central beliefs.
Yessss, except that this was all done by Shapers.

1. Shapers created the Geneforge.
2. While they were responsible enough to bar the island, they didn't destroy the Geneforge.  Whoops.
3. The first two Shapers back on the island (Goettsch and the PC) also failed to destroy it.
4. Zakary and Barzahl, who took its secrets and propagated them?  (And who also took the Drayks off the island?)  Both Shapers.

I would agree that this validates those core tenets of the Shapers.  It does not however validate the Shapers themselves, not as a people nor as a sect.  They broke their own tenets, repeatedly, over and over again, as we have seen constant examples of in each game of the series.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 07:28 AM #65 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

View PostSlartibus, on 11 October 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Yessss, except that this was all done by Shapers.

1. Shapers created the Geneforge.
2. While they were responsible enough to bar the island, they didn't destroy the Geneforge.  Whoops.
3. The first two Shapers back on the island (Goettsch and the PC) also failed to destroy it.
4. Zakary and Barzahl, who took its secrets and propagated them?  (And who also took the Drayks off the island?)  Both Shapers.

I would agree that this validates those core tenets of the Shapers.  It does not however validate the Shapers themselves, not as a people nor as a sect.  They broke their own tenets, repeatedly, over and over again, as we have seen constant examples of in each game of the series.

I think for your analysis to be fully right (and it certainly has a point), we'd need to ask what the world would be like without the Shapers.

It seems you're judging them on a mix of how right their principles/values are, and how perfect their execution is. I'd tweak the second part to how good their execution is compared to some baseline. i.e., do the Shapers actively inspire the wrongdoing of the likes of Barzahl, Agatha and Monarch, or would it happen just as much or more without them? The Shaper Council isn't responsible for human nature.

I think we can imagine a solution which would prevent Barzahlic behaviour better than the Shapers. Shape complacency and obedience into every citizen. But obviously, that'd compromise too much on "principles/values".

Playing G2-5, I'm not convinced the Shapers actually inspire more Barzahlic behaviour than the baseline. I certainly think that, without denying that the Rebellion have a huge moral mandate, probably no faction throughout the Geneforge series offers a better solution than the traditional Shaper Council. You could argue Litalia's Trakovites, but if the Trakovite vision wins in G5 I have to ask: who has the power to stop the next Monarch in G6 when no-one's Shaping anymore?

Does anyone have any idea why the Shapers didn't just abandon the servile experiment centuries ago in favour of golems and better use of other Shapepunk tech? That'd be my ideal faction: one that is pro-Shaping but strongly favours Shaping more 'artifices' and less creatures.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 08:24 AM #66 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

Barzahl, Agatha, and Monarch were all full-fledged Shapers.  They weren't inspired by or enabled by Shapers, they were Shapers.

Without spoiling too much for you, I will also note that in G1 the Awakened are much less ethically compromised; and that one of the G1 endings (and not the one you'd expect) actually provides a more idyllic resolution to the Geneforge saga than what anyone else could offer later.
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Posted 11 October 2015 - 08:39 AM #67 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

I'm not saying they weren't Shapers. I'm saying, if the Shaper Council didn't exist, wouldn't the likes of Barzahl, Agatha and Monarch have Shaped anyway? This is a setting where an individual can gain incredible personal power, and in a short time – look at Shaila, and none of us even think she was all that gifted in the grand scheme of things. In that kind of setting, Barzahlic behaviour is always going to happen.

Overall, does the existence of the Council make abominations of Shaping more or less likely? You can't blame the Shapers for having bad eggs: only for a] having a bad philosophy, or b] for making bad eggs more likely than they already were.

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 10:53 AM #68 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

So I came upon Dhorass in Zhass-Uss in G2.
Spoiler
Maybe I'm reading too much into this but that seems like slavery to me. Any moral rebel supporter want to explain why it isn't ? :p

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 11:20 AM #69 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

I don't think anyone would argue that the Drakons themselves are really any better the Shapers.

I agree with Elyssaen. Say what you will about the Shapers, they managed to keep the peace for a very long time and power hungry fellows always manage to worm their way through the woodwork so I can't blame them for that.

One thing bothers me about the whole Rebellion, and that's the bloodiness of it. Not all change has to be made through bloodshed, the Black Rights Movement and the Feminist Movement prove this. We've seen plenty of humans that feel for the creations and even a few Shapers. A grassroots campaign for creation rights might've done the trick over time. Instead, we have a bloody war that wrecks practically the entire continent. The Rebel's releasing the unbound does it for me. They'd rather wreck hell on earth for everyone instead of trying to find a more peaceful solution. Perhaps it really was the only way to get what they wanted, Shapers certainly aren't very flexible with their ideals, but the lack of trying for peaceful solution bothers me.

Slarty, which G1 ending are you referring to?

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 11:48 AM #70 Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

i think perhaps you overestimate the utility of nonviolent protest in an autocratic society. winning hearts and minds counts for nothing unless they're shaper hearts and minds, and winning over shapers by sheer aura of goodness is a nonstarter. nonviolent resistance by, what, peasants and serviles? the half-dozen surviving drayks? they have no leverage. shapers would begin murdering them all at the first hint of disobedience, let alone allowing anything resembling a "grassroots campaign" to form. campaigning for what? to be elected to congress? shapers don't do that. they would be killed without a second thought. and then the shapers would get back to ruling the world.

which is not to say the rebels aren't unconscionably excessively violent. a nonviolent rebellion was never in the cards, but there were options other than "genocidal reptilian overlords". shapers are honestly preferable to genocidal reptilian overlords.
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