Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

[Tacowarrior]

You could get locked out of earning certain things from the Tombs if your skills were too high, iirc. But since Spell and Creation trainers weren't in the original Geneforge, I can't really think of anything else you couldn't get ._.

[Slawbug]

Yeah, it was the Tombs that I was thinking of, and I do think they could lock you out of stuff. I actually remember G2's mechanics for that seeming like an improvement at the time (although still flawed).

[Hyena of Ice]

I guess the TC lost interest... Is Geneforge 3 really THAT bad? I mean, he couldn't wait to get all the endings in G5...

[alhoon]

If you're talking about me, nope, I've not lost interest. I just didn't have the time and energy that this game deserves. So instead of playing 45 mins here and 50 mins there I wait for a good break to invest some solid hours in it.

I'm still charmed by both this game and the series.

 

I can't say yet if this game is better than the others. It certainly less... convenient but the story is as solid as ever and the NPCs as memorable.

I really MISS this game. The first few days of "GF detox" were nail-biting. I'm still tempted to just say "to the heck with my grandiose plans" and fire the game up just to see a little more of the world and this "very tiny rebellion, not worthy of you notice" I heard about in the 2nd island before I said "Now, things get serious, I want to play this properly".

[Hyena of Ice]

It certainly less... convenient

 

GF1 and 2 are worse, for the reasons I mentioned, minus the melee combat thing. Oh, one thing I forgot: The desert ground tiles will hurt your eyes-- I don't know what they're like in the G1 graphics patch, but unless that patch can be used for G2 as well, then you might want to wear sunglasses while traversing the Taker lands.

 

You get used to most of it eventually, though. (the glaringly bright desert sands, not so much)

[alhoon]

I don't plan to play GF1-2 before there's a remake. Or so I think at this time at least. I said the same about GF3, and I couldn't stay away.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Halfway through Geneforge 1, I would say that you get used to it. The first couple of zones are hard but after that you adapt. Biggest issue I found was the having to constantly drop items by an exit so I could continue to fight. Fortunately dropping items doesn't use up action points so while being surprised by an enemy is annoying, forcing you to drop all heavy items it is not a multi turn fatal error.

Also I found that using the graphics remake which turns the eye hurting green to a subdued grey helps tremendously.

[Hyena of Ice]

Man, is the weight thing truly what people find the most annoying about G1~2? I liked the weight thing, personally, as it adds more challenge. I'm more annoyed by the item limit in each game (even 4 where fewer items are saleable)

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Yes, because unless your playing the shaper packhorse, you need to constantly check to see that you aren't carrying too much and can no longer attack.

I find that the best thing is to make supply trips to the exit to dump everything. This is easier to me than completing the zone and then gathering up everything.

I also need to stop every few zones to dump living tools at the edge of a friendly town as they are a big source of unnecessary weight.

Every other issue can be adapted to, but this is a persistent annoyance.

Even the limited gold is less bothersome as I've kept on finding new merchants to unload the plunder.

[Blxz]

As I've said before, these really seem like minor things. You get annoyed, you adapt and then you move on. G1 & G2 are probably the best in the whole series from my humble perspective and alhoon is missing out big time if he doesn't play them for fear of outdated systems.

 

One of the benefits to this older system is that you are expected to be carrying lots of extra weight and so a low strength shaper can drop heavy inventory and instead use heavier armour with no problems. In the later games if I want heavy armour I have no choice but to bump strength due to the rebalance.

[Hyena of Ice]

Yes, because unless your playing the shaper packhorse, you need to constantly check to see that you aren't carrying too much and can no longer attack.

So? But then, I played Ultimas 6 and 7 to hell prior to playing Geneforge games, so I'm used to dealing with weight limits. And it's certainly preferable to 4/5ths of the items in the game being completely useless. At least in Ultima 7 you could interact with lots of different mundane items (even if the interaction was mundane, such as splashing buckets of water or blood on someone) Meh, I just don't like it when features are removed in later games/versions of software. Lots of things were saleable up to A4 and then damn near everything that isn't a mineral or an equippable becomes useless, and it just gets worse and worse with each SS game (i.e. items that you could sell in one game become unsellable in the next, so that 98 out of 100 misc items cannot be sold. It's beyond annoying as hell.) Also, I'm still miffed that you can't sell booze or blankets, as these ARE IRL trade items-- plus blankets SHOULD be stackable, seriously. Yeah, it's a serious nitpick I have.

 

As I've said before, these really seem like minor things.

 

Really? gold limit and lack of coloradjusted items in inventory aren't worse? Or the item menu layout? (which is in the first 3 Avernums as well-- horrible because you have to scroll up and down your inventory plus it's impossible to tell if you're near your item limit unless you count manually) Granted, a large part of my problem with the GP limit is that I liked to stock a shopkeeper's inventory based on theme etc.

 

In G1/2 I always ended up having to reload at an earlier time because I accidentally sold one of my enchanted items (usually one of my elemental rings) because they're the same color as the gold and silver rings.

[Dragonboy]

Encumbrance was annoying, but I was always having so much fun when I was younger it didn't bother me. Now it's a little awkward when I play the old games, but its really not so bad.

 

Geneforge 1 had the best setting for the Geneforge saga period. If you can handle the clunkier engine, PLAY IT. It's worth it.

[Hyena of Ice]

I liked the challenge of the encumberance system, though.

[Slawbug]

The encumbrance system originated in Nethergate and continued in the First Avernum Trilogy -- games where you had an entire party of PCs and so you weren't crippled by having a low-strength character. With only 1 PC who could carry things in Geneforge, the frustrations of the system went up exponentially. It was generally if mildly disliked at the time, and when Jeff announced he'd be eliminating encumbrance for backpack items in the next game of the series, the fact is that there was A LOT of celebrating.

[Dragonboy]

Indeed. I seem to recall it actually started out as a suggestion from the fanbase for Geneforge 4.

 

http://pied-piper.ermarian.net/topic/21/2#0

 

While hunting around the old forum, I found a post where Jeff says explicitly that the Geneforge Saga will get a Remake in few years... Back in 2008. Looks like we still got a couple of years to go, but I fully expect they will come out one day.

[alhoon]

I found a post where Jeff says explicitly that the Geneforge Saga will get a Remake in few years... Back in 2008. Looks like we still got a couple of years to go, but I fully expect they will come out one day.

2 years? Meh...

Well, at this time it seems I'll take like 4-5 months to finish GF3, playing it "episodically", a couple of hours every week.

I can wait 6-10 months more if it means I'll play GF1\GF2 properly.

 

 

I really wish I had the patience to wait for GF3 to be done properly before stepping in. It would be my favorite from GF3-5 if it wasn't for the minor annoyances and clanky controls. But I can't stop now. I need my GF fix too often for that.

[alhoon]

Man, I miss, miss, miss this game. It's been like a month that I haven't been able to play. At least, unlike after ending GF5, I feel there's light in the end of the "no more GF" tunnel since I have practically most of GF3 in front of me to play.

If you ask why I felt the end arrived after finishing GF5: Because I didn't plan to play GF3 because it was quite antiquated compared to GF4 and GF5.

[alhoon]

Found the time to play a bit (like 6 hours or so). Bought Vlish, made Vlish.

 

Oh.

My.

God.

 

They cost half the essence of a Cryora or Seared Artilla and they are the hardest hitters in my party. They do more damage than improved by levels Alwan and Greta and my Shaper. They are also quite tough; Tougher than the Searing Artilla that costs double the essence.

 

Really, everything else seemed a waste of money and essence so I just loaded before I bought Artilla and Cryora upgrades and just got Vlish.

[Slawbug]

See, we weren't kidding.

[alhoon]

Found a canister for Vlish. This is the first canister I'll allow my char to keep.

Are terror Vlish worth the way greater investment of essence?

[Slawbug]

Eventually, making a couple of terror vlish (1-2, maybe 3 at most) can be somewhat useful for the variety in attack types. You can wait to make them until you have plenty of essence though. Getting more early regular vlish should be your priority, so they get the levels.

[alhoon]

I made two and soon I'll make the third. I won't go more than 3. I want to put a gazer and either a rot or a Drakon in my group at some point.

[Blxz]

I made two and soon I'll make the third. I won't go more than 3. I want to put a gazer and either a rot or a Drakon in my group at some point.

 

Variety is important. Although admittedly not as much in the earlier games when compared to the later ones.

[Slawbug]

Variety's not important, not for its own sake anyway. If you have the extra essence floating around, there's nothing wrong with making a big buff creation, but if your vlish have been levelling up you may be surprised at how little difference it makes, offensively and defensively. Keep in mind that you can plug some surplus essence into the vlish stats you care about as well (strength and endurance), and rather cheaply. To the extent that damage types matter in G3, which is relatively minimal, the poison damage from terror vlish is all you need. I'm not even sure there's anything in the game that meaningfully resists both types of vlish attacks, but is vulnerable to fire or ice.

[alhoon]

Aren't Rots doing poison damage in this game?

And when I level up, should I make a terror Vlish to keep to the end (with the +30 essence requirement) or make a normal Vlish and ditch it for a Rot later?

[Slawbug]

I don't remember if rots actually do poison damage, or just do physical damage with an ancillary poison drip (which is never that strong). Either way, though, they only inflict damage via melee, which is a serious limitation. Terror vlish have a ranged poison attack, which is completely unique, and pretty great. (They do have a physical melee attack for enemies immune to poison, like specters... I think that was my biggest reason for limiting the number of terror vlish to 1 or 2, actually.)

[alhoon]

Well, I thought this would be my first GF game that I would actually at least LEARN to make Rots. I guess I was wrong. I'll go with Drayks\Drakons. Do you get Drakons at some reasonable time, or they're like the last stretch of the game when you have already done most of the dirty work and your beefed up creations can take everything?

I still don't know whether I'll go Shaper or Rebel in this one. In this 2nd island, the Shapes are REALLY crappy. Again. Sure, Litalia is her mass murderer self going out of her way to inform the rebels SHE is the source of their plight... but I feel for the people desperate enough to hide in that swamp. And I always hated the Shaper power-hoarding. So, if that pathetic, lame Shaper with the girly name (Di-something) isn't willing to get into the fight himself, to get out of his turret circle and go clean rogues I have no problem giving the canister to the rebels.

 

Yet... If I -can- clean the place myself I'll refrain from going that far against the Shapers.

[ThricebornPhoenix]

Both Rots use Rotting Touch level 14 (all games, except G4 and G5 upgraded versions using RT level 20), which should do acid damage and add acid status. Obviously not great against foes that resist acid, but to be honest I'm drawing a blank here (aside from other Rots).

 

Do you get Drakons at some reasonable time

Not really. They're always pretty late, but IIRC there are just two canisters in G3 and both are halfway through the last island.

[Slawbug]

The Shapers are Rebels are both pretty awful in G3.

 

Diwaniya, btw, isn't a girly name, it's a foreign name. But juxtaposing "girly" with "pathetic" and "lame" is maybe not the classiest way to express things.

[Blxz]

Diwaniya was an example of a shaper sticking to the rules and not messing things up. He held his ground, recognised the limitations of his power and didn't make the problem worse. I still don't respect his total lack of power but at least he recognised his limits. I can sympathise with the 'real person' behind the character.

 

Admittedly his people skills were sub par and he enabled a spilt to occur on his watch but I've known far worse in real people so I can justify away some of his failings as a person.

 

Rebels in G1, G2 and G3 are just mad and really have soured the whole thing for me. I do find them to be a little less useless in G4 and G5 (some of them at least) so I can see why you have the rebel sympathy alhoon. But keep playing and you will experience the ineptitude and careless, pointless destruction of the earlier rebels.

[alhoon]

Bixz, I actually agree with his view point of "I can't make more! What do you want me to do?!"

However, the answer to that is: "Get No-whatever, drop a couple of turrets to free up slots and lead your creations to the battle." You know, like my char does.

Sure, he's not a Guardian, but he was the only shaper around. Even if he wasn't in the first wave, the morale boost of having a Shaper 10 meters away would help his human soldiers. And he COULD down pods and remake creations that fell. Or heal the humans. And yes, he could also throw a spell.

Sitting in his throne and going Moseh (GF4) isn't the answer. Moseh was pinned to the crystal. He could get his butt off the throne and go kill some rogues.

 

Slartibus: Foreign or not (I'm not from USA anyway), his name sounded girly. I didn't do it to demean girls as you may be thinking though. I've played a woman in GF5, I found Greta, Miranda and Astoria to be the best characters in GF games, and Litalia is one of the biggest bad-asses I've found in games (and complicated to the point I can't decide if I hate her or love her).

That said, and my respect for the women in GF series declared: Diwaniya is a girly name in my opinion, given to a lame and pathetic Shaper.

 

PS. the worst woman character in the series IMO, is Guardian Malkar's girlfriend in GF5. That does nothing but stammer before he dies, and does nothing but cry after he does.

[Owenmoz]

Bixz, I actually agree with his view point of "I can't make more! What do you want me to do?!"

However, the answer to that is: "Get No-whatever, drop a couple of turrets to free up slots and lead your creations to the battle." You know, like my char does.

Sure, he's not a Guardian, but he was the only shaper around. Even if he wasn't in the first wave, the morale boost of having a Shaper 10 meters away would help his human soldiers. And he COULD down pods and remake creations that fell. Or heal the humans. And yes, he could also throw a spell.

Sitting in his throne and going Moseh (GF4) isn't the answer. Moseh was pinned to the crystal. He could get his butt off the throne and go kill some rogues.

 

Slartibus: Foreign or not (I'm not from USA anyway), his name sounded girly. I didn't do it to demean girls as you may be thinking though. I've played a woman in GF5, I found Greta, Miranda and Astoria to be the best characters in GF games, and Litalia is one of the biggest bad-asses I've found in games (and complicated to the point I can't decide if I hate her or love her).

That said, and my respect for the women in GF series declared: Diwaniya is a girly name in my opinion, given to a lame and pathetic Shaper.

 

PS. the worst woman character in the series IMO, is Guardian Malkar's girlfriend in GF5. That does nothing but stammer before he dies, and does nothing but cry after he does.

 

Ok to be honest he wasnt all that lame and pathetic. It was his first posting as a full shaper and he was just not strong enough. I remember on the conversation with him when you manage to convince him to make creations it really must have taken up the last of his essence as as noted they were incredibly dumb. Now while taking the game scenario i would agree with take your creations and charge against the enemy. We have various factors to consider. First he had no idea what he was fighting again. For all he knew there was another possibly more experienced shaper making them. Which holds more than true if you think that both litalia and master hoge were there. Which both only talk to you of all shapers. He would have had his back side handed to them if he charged against the rogues as soon as they appeared and the whole island would have lost the only shaper in it and the only person who realistically could protect them.

Then we have the fact that indeed if it were real life. San Ru would have been flooded with refugees. Absorbing creations and leaving to battle would have left a very big target that can barelly deffend itself.

 

Honestly he was young. And barelly had that brainwashed certainty other shapers have. If lankan and the rebels actually fought with him and supported him he would have been very gratefull and honestly i think it would end up with a leader that actually cared for the population and made active work to make their lives better. At that point he needed them as much as they needed him.

And sure you can get where lankan is coming from but how can you trust someone who can barelly control himself. I mean sure you're angry. But punching a shaper isnt bravery its self indulging stupidity. If he treats a shaper like that whats stopping him from treating his followers and his equals worse. Today i feel like gutting a servile. Lets do it. He basically doomed his friends and destroyed families just cause he couldnt control himself.

 

I mean don't get me wrong. I sort of do get the rebels. Its just there was nothing the shaper could have done. For them at that time. And if he tried. Literally one day before you reach him(as you find hoge in the map right before san run), he would have died.

Honestly i love geneforge 3 but they make a very unconvincing case for joining the rebels. Even if you sacrifice your sanity for power, you can get more power pro shaper. And sure plight of the humans and serviles but tbh. Most of the problems in ashen islands is the rebel's fault. And the only area you could realistically join them would be gull's island since agatha is not a great alternative. But the "price" you have to pay is too high imo. I really played the game many times. And its my favorite with 2 and 4 close behind. But I can't do rebel. Barzhite is more rewarding than geneforge 3 rebel. All other games have better faction dynamics.

[Slawbug]

All other games have better faction dynamics.

This. It's worth pointing out that this was intentional -- Jeff wanted the player to have to choose between two very problematic options, for effect, and he succeeded at it. Some people liked that, but I think the general feeling can be seen in the fact that by far the most popular character from G3 was not Greta, or Alwan, or even Litalia -- it was Khyryk.

[Triumph]

Sadly, the single best argument for joining the rebels in G3 is Icy End...which is found on the last island after you've already been forced to choose your faction alignment.

[Owenmoz]

 

This. It's worth pointing out that this was intentional -- Jeff wanted the player to have to choose between two very problematic options, for effect, and he succeeded at it. Some people liked that, but I think the general feeling can be seen in the fact that by far the most popular character from G3 was not Greta, or Alwan, or even Litalia -- it was Khyryk.

 

Yeah but lacking moderate rebels i think shapers have the moral high ground(although i have to say going about expressing for creation rights and not actually joining the rebels give for a very though walkthrough as no one will help you which puts moderate pro shapers at a disadvantage) as geneforge games take place 200 years after the baring of sucia. And if you play the games you see how much they evolved in terms of creation rights in that little time. A rebelion on such a scale might have been justified if the shapers were hell bent on being backwards. But no. Little by little they were begining to take better care of their creations. One thing that was unlikelly to happen however would be servile independence. Only astoria and khyrik spoke anything of it. And astoria was only because of the war i think.

And yeah Khyrik was indeed one of my favorite characters in the whole series along with miranda and few others. I sincerelly wish that geneforge 3 had an ending with his own faction. He seriously was the only thing stopping me from joining the rebels. But i'll try this walkthrough. I modified it so money wont be an issue so in less than two days im in dohnals. And i'll come back at you on the icy end rebels Triumph. Usually by that point any rebel wants me dead. But to be honest. Compelling arguments for the rebels are all over(most notably first third and fourth islands, just not harmony). Its just a matter of the ends justifying the means.

 

 

Quick side note. I read somewhere that compared to other games you gst the eyebeast relativelly early is there any truth to that. And if so where are the canisters.

[Slawbug]

You know, I sort of wish that G1 had been the game with only two factions instead. Takers vs Obeyers would actually be an interesting choice. The Taker story is sort of existentially relevant, in its way. And because G1 also has a second set of alliances to choose from, it wouldn't make the game feel too restricted.

 

Then imagine the Awakened showing up in G3, but with a bit more Khyryk than Ellhrah -- having a clear moral high ground, but unlike both the Shapers and Rebels, having a complete lack of power and practical ability to improve things.

[alhoon]

Owenrus: Very interesting take.

You are absolutely right about the traitor Shapers in the island (and I have forgot that). When this happened at least Master Hoge was there. He left once my Shaper arrived. The Rebels have a guy posted to wait for Litalia to return. Litalia was there when the whole thing started with the punch. Diwaniya would have been either killed or captured leaving the whole thing defenseless.

 

Seeing it from that perspective, it seems clear that the Shaper was not up to the situation. Not that much because of his own fault, but because the enemy was so much stronger.

I don't completely agree with your take on Lankan though. One lapse of control when your whole life is upturned and the guy you serve so he can protect you says "not yet" doesn't make a person tyrranical.

However Diwaniya had made the situation worse. OK, he couldn't do much with his creations against two full Shapers. He could be less obnoxious about it and do more to help people. Walk around in town and heal refugees till he was about to drop. Do all in his power to help the alchemists make healing pods and spores. Talk to the people to make them feel more confident even if he didn't feel confident. Token things like sending that old guardian to train a militia, useless more or less except of making people more confident.

 

And seriously, he could whine less. I agree that in light of what you said, Diwaniya has been dealt a very crappy hand. He could try and play it better though and could whine less about it.

PS. Hoge waits you to arrive in order to leave. And makes roamers as he leaves.

 

In the end, it comes down to limited choices unfortunately. I wanted an option of saying to Diwaniya "I'll help your pathetic butt, but you WILL work with Lankan and forgive them and you will go out in the town and use your influence to heal the divide between loyalists and Lankan's group." And since No-??? (the warrior next to Diwaniya) tried that and failed, I wanted to do the very same with Lankan: "I -will- help you, but you WILL accept the pardon of Diwaniya, work your charisma to heal the divides and fight for your homes with the loyalists. Deny and you're alone"

 

 

 

As for the rest: I didn't real the whole of your discussions since they seem to contain spoilers. I don't know this Khyric or Agatha.

But seeing what I saw, I may go Trakovite again as I did in GF4.

I also agree that Shapers are bad... but the hardcore Rebels in the islands created all those problems. And had the audacity to inform the rebels of "Hey, we made the monsters that kill you friends so you would be pissed at the Shapers. We won't stop making monsters now that you're pissed. We will just make you stronger so you can defeat them. Let the monsters kill those that trust the shapers"

O_O What sort of insanity is this?!

 

 

 

 

In the end, in every GF I went with the choice I felt would be better for the unarmed and the innocent (Which includes serviles, human civilians but also barred creations that just want to be left alone). With what Owenrus said in mind about the impossibility of the situation, mid-way in the second island I would say the rebels are not the best choice.

[Nim]

If you are only halfway on Harmony then you haven't even seen what Diwaniya is up against right ? Might be that you'll revise your opinion of what he could have done. And should you destroy the source of the rogues (you don't have to obv) remember to tell Lankan.

[Owenmoz]

EDIT: May contain minor spoilers as to the nature of the faction choices and endings. But not anything big. Idk how to make the spoiler tags.

 

You know, I sort of wish that G1 had been the game with only two factions instead. Takers vs Obeyers would actually be an interesting choice. The Taker story is sort of existentially relevant, in its way. And because G1 also has a second set of alliances to choose from, it wouldn't make the game feel too restricted.

 

Then imagine the Awakened showing up in G3, but with a bit more Khyryk than Ellhrah -- having a clear moral high ground, but unlike both the Shapers and Rebels, having a complete lack of power and practical ability to improve things.

 

That i agree completelly. I honestly think while the awekened ending for g1 was one of the best, they seem rather irrelevant. Makes sense to have just two radical factions. Isolationism does that. And if played the same way as in g3 with hard choices having to be made and a creeping progression on how relevant the choices are it would bring a huge bonus on how personal the game would be.

And in geneforge 3 it would be good that way. Honestly for that guy i would fight both litalia and rahul(Although with him being reasonable and all i doubt it would have gone to that). I for one liked his short and granted not amazing insight on the geneforge 4 ending you know? It was realistic. He knew he held no sway on the shapers he know the player would have no sway in the rebels and he managed to merge the plight of both. And merge it in one great show on the dangers of opression and the need for order. The ending was anticlimatic sure. But playing geneforge 3 you don't feel heroic. Even as a pure loyalist the only good part was facing litalia and with enough leadership the encounter is more sad than satisfactory. And playing as a rebel you don't feel righteous at all. Greta tries to make you feel better just doesnt erase what you had to do. Sure doesnt motivate you to get done with the gull's rebel main quest. So homestly i would settle for an anticlimatic but reasonable ending.

[Owenmoz]

 

 

In the end, it comes down to limited choices unfortunately. I wanted an option of saying to Diwaniya "I'll help your pathetic butt, but you WILL work with Lankan and forgive them and you will go out in the town and use your influence to heal the divide between loyalists and Lankan's group." And since No-??? (the warrior next to Diwaniya) tried that and failed, I wanted to do the very same with Lankan: "I -will- help you, but you WILL accept the pardon of Diwaniya, work your charisma to heal the divides and fight for your homes with the loyalists. Deny and you're alone"

 

 

 

As for the rest: I didn't real the whole of your discussions since they seem to contain spoilers. I don't know this Khyric or Agatha.

But seeing what I saw, I may go Trakovite again as I did in GF4.

I also agree that Shapers are bad... but the hardcore Rebels in the islands created all those problems. And had the audacity to inform the rebels of "Hey, we made the monsters that kill you friends so you would be pissed at the Shapers. We won't stop making monsters now that you're pissed. We will just make you stronger so you can defeat them. Let the monsters kill those that trust the shapers"

O_O What sort of insanity is this?!

 

 

 

 

In the end, in every GF I went with the choice I felt would be better for the unarmed and the innocent (Which includes serviles, human civilians but also barred creations that just want to be left alone). With what Owenrus said in mind about the impossibility of the situation, mid-way in the second island I would say the rebels are not the best choice.

 

Ok he could whine less. The comander of fort kentia had a better resolve. But it varies from personality to personality. And while one was fighting mostly worms the other had his hands full. As Nim said if you see what he was up against. I might have whined too.

Also the game doesnt say if he did or didnt heal refugees. Hell the game didnt have refugees. I agree he should act like that. But we honestly dont know that he didnt.

 

And man do i wish i could do exactly that. Its really bad that dinwayna(how do you spell it?) Didnt allow for a wish or request in exchange for saving him. Lankan wasnt all that bad. Just tempered and proud. Should have met the guard halfway. They were all acting like big babies. At the expense of morale life and resources.

 

And sorry about the spoilers. But i think they were minor as to the nature of the situation not exactly what happens and so. Like saying you can join taygen but its not really a good ending.

 

And no there is unfortunatelly no best choice. Both sides are bad. Both sides have good points. But as you may have noted thus far the rebels are causing more damage to the inocent people.

[alhoon]

Taygen's not a good ending? Well, if you DO join Taygen, I guess you know EXACTLY what you sign up for, so I guess it would be a good ending. It's the one I haven't done.

 

No worries about the spoilers. I didn't read them. I may have lost non-spoily parts though but that's OK.

 

 

As for the both choices bad: The main thing I loved in GF was the realization that both sides had good and bad people and that in a war, eventually it comes to the lesser evil choice. It wasn't a clear good vs evil fight or even a Idea A vs Idea B fight. It was a bunch of ideas grouped in two warring sides with people (good and bad) giving allegiance (reluctant or not) to on side or the other.

For example the Cryodrayks in GF4 rebel against the Drakons. (Don't give GF5 examples as there are people in this thread that haven't finished the games).

[Owenmoz]

 

As for the both choices bad: The main thing I loved in GF was the realization that both sides had good and bad people and that in a war, eventually it comes to the lesser evil choice. It wasn't a clear good vs evil fight or even a Idea A vs Idea B fight. It was a bunch of ideas grouped in two warring sides with people (good and bad) giving allegiance (reluctant or not) to on side or the other.

For example the Cryodrayks in GF4 rebel against the Drakons. (Don't give GF5 examples as there are people in this thread that haven't finished the games).

 

You and me both man! The whole game brings a rare inclusion of perspectives. I really like that. It makes stuff be realistically complicated and idk. Its real. Often detailedly so. Most characters have their own atitude on their own faction. But honestly get done with harmony asap. Soon after you'll start seeing g3 big picture like. The pace gets different and such.

[alhoon]

Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to finish Harmony for some time and I will definitely have to take a break after Harmony. A pity, since I love the game. Look how long it took me after Greenwood island to be able to clear up enough time to play GF3 for several hours (I don't like playing 30 mins/day; Either I find a time that I can put consistently 2-3 hours in the game each day or I stay back).

[Blxz]

Could alhoon be turning towards the way of the shapers? Blasphemy.

[alhoon]

It's quite possible in this game. And this from someone that started GF series from GF4 as a Rebel trying to survive a Shaper world that decided he was not to exist hence I come from a very pro-shaper background. All of you started with Geneforge games that put you in the shoes of Shapers. My first 40+ hours of Geneforge, I didn't even have the choice to like the Shapers as they were either bullying me, or fighting me. And the other 40? They were killing my friends and asking me to betray those I had left for the privilege of just locking me up.

[Nim]

It's quite possible in this game. And this from someone that started GF series from GF4 as a Rebel trying to survive a Shaper world that decided he was not to exist...

Err, the shapers tell you straight up in the G4 demo area that you will be allowed to exist if you help them, even be rewarded. Even as a friggin geneforged servile. What the heck were you expecting, that they kiss the ground you walk on ?

My first 40+ hours of Geneforge, I didn't even have the choice to like the Shapers as they were either bullying me, or fighting me. And the other 40? They were killing my friends and asking me to betray those I had left for the privilege of just locking me up.

The shapers bullying you ? In the beginning of G4 ? What ? They WANT your help. They ask for it. And locking you up ? Isn't that the bad G4 shaper ending ? That would be a result of your choices. The good shaper ending is really good considering the circumstances.

 

The rebels actually bully you into using the geneforge right now without proper preparations on the threat of death if you don't. You could have very well ended up like Shaila which they knew.

[alhoon]

Yes, they DO bully me in the beginning of GF4. Miranda tells me straight "buddy, join up or you'll die horribly." while captive. A Shaper General that tries to recruit me shows up, his whole army nearby, and tells me in no uncertain terms they will chop me up and dissect me unless I betray the people fighting for the freedom of Serviles and the right of everyone to have access to power (I haven't seen the Drakons yet; nor Unbound. The bad-part of the Rebellion was North).

 

 

Even near the end, in the hidden Shaper camp, half the shapers tell me that I have no right to exist. When I mention the promise to "just" lock me up forever a Shaper tells me that Shapers aren't bound by promises to creations. Another one says that OK, they would respect their promise ... and ask me to release them from the promise. If I deny, they will declare me a "rogue" creation and kill me. Another Shaper (or a captain, not sure) also says to me "I wouldn't make long term plans in your place".

So, a lot of input was that Shapers would not hold their promise to keep me imprisoned forever, while I was seeing how terrible they treat their creations and most were clear they considered me a creation. On the other side were the people that saved me from a Shaper attack, gave me power to fight tyranny (without telling me the cost), were treating serviles as people and considered me "improved" not monster. Really, there was no doubt who I would join. By the time I first see the Drakons (I considered Drayks to be obnoxious) I was too deep. The Unbound at the time seemed necessary for the survival of the rebellion, something we HAD to do. I never believed that they would eradicate all life in Terrestia just that they will turn the odds (and I was right. ).

 

The Shaper ending I got, is that although I didn't have used many cannisters I was executed cause I helped the rebels in the beginning (Miranda and Alwan haven't survived and the finale mentioned that I didn't have any friends with the Shapers). I was mostly a fence-sitter till the final areas. I got my "Rebel" ending by loading and picking the "destroy Unbound" option I didn't play pro-shaper all the way. The rebel ending I got was the Rebels didn't trust me too much because I didn't help enough and held me in the back.

 

The whole game, every Shaper or loyalist was calling me freak and abomination. It was worse than GF5. By the end, I was nearly angry enough with the Shapers to seriously consider unleasing the Unbound. (My original finale was the Trakovite ending with the 100 Unbound that turn the tide but are the last to ever be made).

[Nim]

Yes, they DO bully me in the beginning of GF4. Miranda tells me straight "buddy, join up or you'll die horribly." while captive.

If you consider someone telling you how it is bullying then I don't even know what to say.

A Shaper General that tries to recruit me shows up, his whole army nearby, and tells me in no uncertain terms they will chop me up and dissect me unless I betray the people fighting for the freedom of Serviles and the right of everyone to have access to power (I haven't seen the Drakons yet; nor Unbound. The bad-part of the Rebellion was North).

He says nothing of the kind.

 

Not getting into the rest, my bad for even getting involved.

[alhoon]

Yes, I consider "join and betray your allies, or else" to be bullying.

 

And what do you mean the general says nothing of the kind? He is the guy asking me to betray the caravan that carries the geneforge by arranging an attack that would probably kill that nice captain Zakary that had helped me. That's betraying completely the rebellion and at that point everyone I've met was a free servile that didn't want to return to chains or a human fighting against the tyranny of the Shapers.

 

As I said I haven't seen that the other half of the rebellion wanted to put up a tyranny of the Drakons in place of the Shapers. I haven't seen that shapers, power-hoarding and authoritarianism included kept a functioning (if not egalitarian) society. I haven't seen what uncontrolled shaping does till the Monarch.

[Owenmoz]

Yes, I consider "join and betray your allies, or else" to be bullying.

 

And what do you mean the general says nothing of the kind? He is the guy asking me to betray the caravan that carries the geneforge by arranging an attack that would probably kill that nice captain Zakary that had helped me. That's betraying completely the rebellion and at that point everyone I've met was a free servile that didn't want to return to chains or a human fighting against the tyranny of the Shapers.

 

As I said I haven't seen that the other half of the rebellion wanted to put up a tyranny of the Drakons in place of the Shapers. I haven't seen that shapers, power-hoarding and authoritarianism included kept a functioning (if not egalitarian) society. I haven't seen what uncontrolled shaping does till the Monarch.

 

Ok as a mostly rebel supporting person can i just say. General Crowley said you could destroy the caravan if you want extra trinkets and stuff but it's really implied that he doesnt at all expect you to do that. The shapers only trully expect you to either fix moseh or get monarch's papers. After that report about the unbound and kill the unbound. All of them except fixing moseh and *arguably* killing the unbound are entirelly reasonable. I think in the first district, the main shaper quest is saving shaila. And me as a person, could never trust someone that would throw your own under the curb for some trinkets and power. Exactly why even if they give you trinkets, power and armnistice(great deal on its own) they always appeal for your moral side and try to make you understand why you were recruited and why its important to follow them. Unlike litalia that actually bullies(i.e. first encounter with her) and threathens you into joining her. We have very high standarts for bullying and threathening thanks to her . Miranda was honest and as you see later on well meaning. Crowley was understanding and even. I don't think at that point he felt strongly for or against any side in the war. He just wanted it to end.

Finally you see the dangers of uncontroled shaping as soon as you meet shaila. And whats his name on chickweed bridge.

 

Also no the support for shapers around here isnt due to playing from the first upwards. I think on the first two games you more easilly sympathise with the rebels. Just on 3 and 4(*arguably* since it really leaves a bad taste to ultimatelly doom the rebelion) shapers have the high ground for various reasons. In 5 really depends on your personal taste more or less.

 

The game however isnt about easy choices all choices tend to have consequences. Otherwise it wouldnt have been geneforge.