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alhoon

Geneforge 3 - Hints (without spoilers) and changes from GF5?

243 posts in this topic

While the reasons for rebellion aren't always well presented, the reasons to support the Shapers is more of we are in charge and therefore the best alternative.

The shapers are simply the least shitty alternative. The drakons are way worse than the shapers, trakovites are utterly deluded, the takers are just mad and I'm not sure what to call the barzites, nothing positive tho. So that leaves the awakened and the shapers. And it's not as if the awakened plans weren't just waiting to blow up in their face.

The examples of out of control shaping are usually caused by Shapers and less by others.

Unbound and the bugs under Astorias region are two easy examples of out of control shaping from the rebels. But of course most of the out of control shaping was done by Shapers, they had exclusive control over it for centuries d'oh.
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The Drakons, at least till near the end of the rebellion don't use slaves. And while the Drakons made the Unbound and the Shredbugs ... Taygen made a disease that if unleased kills much of his own people. So you have two ruthless factions that include extremists that prefer to see the world burn than lose to their enemies.

BUT... one of these factions doesn't condone slavery and the Drakons are facing extinction just for existing. Hence, they have an excuse for acting as ruthlessly.

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Unbound and the bugs under Astorias region are two easy examples of out of control shaping from the rebels. But of course most of the out of control shaping was done by Shapers, they had exclusive control over it for centuries d'oh.

The entire series happened because they lost control, in a bad way, through their own carelessness and complacency. Unbound, giant bugs, etc. - basically all of the horrors seen in later games - could never have happened if the Shapers were not frequently careless.

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While the Drakons have absolutely no excuse for the Shredbugs, and made them ONLY to provoke Astoria to attack the rebels again, hence to destroy her along with the rest, the Unbound are a different story.

The Drakons made the Unbound at a time the Rebellion was losing on every front and Drakons knew that if they lost, they would be all be killed for the crime of existing. Rebel soldiers may receive a pardon or hide in the population. Not so for Drakons. Hence, the Unbound was a desperate measure at a Desperate time.

 

In my opinion, the Shapers were worse. They were followed by the Drakons as 2nd-worse. Then we had the more moderate rebels (Greta-minded people led by Greta) that if the Drakons win and try to oppress them, they fight back. These have some atrocities under their belt but they are better than both Shapers and Drakons. These are followed by Alwan's patriotic, non-atrocity commiting shapers. If Alwan wins, he allows some intelligent creations to exist in exile but doesn't allow more of them to be born or created. Again, Alwan-minded shapers have some atrocities in their hands but at least they fight with a sense of honor. And finally, we have the good guys. Astoria's rebels. Astoria is visionary enough to understand that Serviles are allowed to think and even knowing the risks to her life betrays the core shaper philosophy. She does this knowing how bad it will reflect on her but wants to end the devastating war as soon as possible. Even if that means handing the victory to the OTHER side. But, she realizes that Drakons will never allow shapers to exist peacefully so she leads the assault that claims Ghaldring's life.

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"Alwan" and "non-atrocity-committing" don't go together well. He's certainly not the worst of the bunch, but he is a military leader who spews forth quite venomous hatred of his enemies, full of all the old Shaper stereotypes. Mainly I'd question whether he is in any way more ethical than Greta. I'd say they're on about the same level.

 

One of the fascinating things about G1 is that the three sect leaders are all extremely principled, though their principles obviously differ quite tremendously.

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The Drakons, at least till near the end of the rebellion don't use slaves.

They weren't far off. They treated serviles as equals in the beginning of the rebellion, when you get to G2 and talked to some of the takers you'll understand. By G5 Ghaldring made it pretty clear where things were going. How did it go ? "The time of the humans is over, the time of the serviles shall never come" Something like that iirc ?

And while the Drakons made the Unbound and the Shredbugs ... Taygen made a disease that if unleased kills much of his own people.

What ? Taygen certainly doesn't see creations as his own people. And while iirc it killed some humans, that was an unintended sideeffect ?

The entire series happened because they lost control, in a bad way, through their own carelessness and complacency. Unbound, giant bugs, etc. - basically all of the horrors seen in later games - could never have happened if the Shapers were not frequently careless.

Nobody is disputing that ? I am disputing that the drakons or the rebel humans are going to be more careful.

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Ghaldring says that before he dies. :) But yes, Greta is quite clear where things are heading and has warned the player AND Ghaldring that the serviles and humans will rebel again if they feel oppressed.

And while Ghaldring's drakons feel themselves superior, they don't treat the serviles as slaves. They treat them bad, but at least they allow them to be free.

 

 

And while iirc it killed some humans, that was an unintended sideeffect

 

Yes, Taygen expected it to have some minor effects. And yet, this talented Shaper shaped a disease that did more than what it was meant to do and he paid the price since he lost his consort, the love of his life.

So, Taygen lowered himself to biological warfare (despicable on its own, as much as the Shredbugs) and he failed to predict the extend of the damage.

Hence that disproves that Shapers are either more moral or more responsible than the Drakons in my eyes.

 

 

Nobody is disputing that ? I am disputing that the drakons or the rebel humans are going to be more careful.

Oh, we don't dispute that. Not even the rebels themselves dispute that (at least in GF4 and GF5 I don't know about GF3 yet).

We dispute that the Shapers are the less bad choice or that they are the least wrong and least evil.

 

he is a military leader who spews forth quite venomous hatred of his enemies, full of all the old Shaper stereotypes. Mainly I'd question whether he is in any way more ethical than Greta. I'd say they're on about the same level.

Indeed. Both true.

However, Greta is not as bad as Drakons or Litalia in GF4. Litalia on GF5 takes the cake IMO.

What I mean is that Alwan and Greta are both fanatics, both have innocent blood in their hands... and both are not bad considering they're leaders in a civil war. You can't expect them to be actually good people. :) You can expect them to not unleash diseases or mad killing machines though.

Most rebellions in history had revolutionaries and counter-revolutionaries worse than Greta and Alwan. Look at the French revolution for example.

And most leaders (I include even minor ones like General crowly etc) in GF4 and GF5 are as bad orworse than Alwan and Greta in my opinion.

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And while Ghaldring's drakons feel themselves superior, they don't treat the serviles as slaves. They treat them bad, but at least they allow them to be free.

They went from equals to treating them bad in what, around 5 years or so ? Just give it a few more years ;)

Yes, Taygen expected it to have some minor effects. And yet, this talented Shaper shaped a disease that did more than what it was meant to do and he paid the price since he lost his consort, the love of his life.

So, Taygen lowered himself to biological warfare (despicable on its own, as much as the Shredbugs) and he failed to predict the extend of the damage.

Hence that disproves that Shapers are either more moral or more responsible than the Drakons in my eyes.

Putting Taygens actions on all the Shapers is disingenious. There is a reason he developed it in secret and released it without approval once Ghaldring was dead (that's how it was right ?).

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I don't know how long it took but I don't disagree with you. :) Nor the Serviles and Greta disagreed with you. They pounced on the Drakons even before the Drakons finished the war. That's why in Ghaldring's ending there is a small part of Terrestia under Shaper control; The humans and servilles attacked before the war was over.

 

 

Well, Rawal left the battlefield, allowing the others to tire themselves out so he could dominate the empire after the war. And he created the control tools to kill those that displeased him and a geneforge, probably to create his own army of lifecrafters, all with a control tool to be under his thumb. Hardly a responsible use of shaping talents.

 

 

And it's equally disingenuous to put the actions of a few Drakons on all the rebels. Not even all the Drakons agreed with the creation of the shredbugs. That's why Litalia wanted them out (aside from moving Astoria).

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Putting Taygens actions on all the Shapers is disingenious. There is a reason he developed it in secret and released it without approval once Ghaldring was dead (that's how it was right ?).

Indeed. It's just like blaming the actions of Agatha, Barazahl, Zakhary, the Shaper Monarch, Litalia, or even Danell on the Shapers. These were rogue shapers, who violated some of the most sacred of Shaper laws, and they did so on remote islands far from the prying eyes of the council.

 

The Drakons, at least till near the end of the rebellion don't use slaves.

What do you call the forefathers of The Unbound, then?

 

What I mean is that Alwan and Greta are both fanatics, both have innocent blood in their hands... and both are not bad considering they're leaders in a civil war. You can't expect them to be actually good people. :) You can expect them to not unleash diseases or mad killing machines though.

Greta was a proponent-- AND COLLABORATOR-- of unleashing the Unbound in G4, despite knowing that the majority of the people AND CREATIONS of Terrestria (the very people she was supposedly fighting for!!) would die-- while she, like the Drakons, gets to hole up safely in the Northforge Citadel, how convenient! I would say that makes her worse than Alwan, and that is saying something.

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As I said above, it's equally disingenuous to put the actions of a few Drakons on all the rebellion. :)

(PS. Monarch was not a shaper, whatever title he was using. Nor was Rawal even if he was in the council. Those two have betrayed the Shaper law and morals so much that calling them shapers is like calling Litalia one in my opinion.)

 

 

The forefathers of the Unbound? I don't understand. Unbound were created in big vats, growing slowly through months.

 

 

Greta was a proponent of unleasing the Unbound cause the Rebellion seemed to be lost. And while she urges the player to not back away, she's clearly troubled by what they are doing.

In the Trakovite ending, the Greta-side of the rebellion prohibits the Drakons from making more Unbound. In the full-rebel ending, the Drakons ignore the Greta-rebels and make more despite the disagreement of the humans and serviles. Also, the rebels don't hole up in North Citadel. They make forays, take back Illya province etc. They haven't holed up even in GF5 that is 4 years after the GF4.

Again, Greta is not a nice person but few leaders in civil wars are.

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The thing is, the shapers core tenets were that if shaping were taken from their hands and used in an uncontrolled fashion all hell would break loose.

 

The fact that the chain of events occurred pretty much immediately upon the rediscovery of Sucia Isle really validates a lot of their central beliefs.

 

- Drayks were too dangerous and smart to be allowed to exist. Correct on all counts since they eventually led to the creation of Drakons, etc.

- Uncontrolled shaping should be banned. Correct. The whole thing was an unmitigated disaster as soon as others got control. It didn't take centuries to fall apart. It wasn't generations of uncontrolled shaping. It literally happened immediately in G2 onwards.

 

And the presence of Zakhary and co., Agatha, and the host of other incompetents does not reflect on the fact that the shapers were right 100%. Those were shapers who broke the rules and caused events to unfold.

 

Now, I have yet to play G5 so I have not got the full story quite yet but so far every shaper teaching has been fully validated. Just a pity they were so bad at following their own rules. Sucia should have been purged not Barred.

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One thing I find annoying in GF3 after playing 4-5 is that there seems to be no "?" that give me descriptions inside a map. I have to either remember where everyone is, or wander around them map trying to locate them again.

 

I can also say that I don't like the servile and batte alpha graphics, being used to GF4 sprites.

I managed to get Serviles like GF4-5 back, but it took time. Now, I have to do it for the Alphas.

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The thing is, the shapers core tenets were that if shaping were taken from their hands and used in an uncontrolled fashion all hell would break loose.

 

The fact that the chain of events occurred pretty much immediately upon the rediscovery of Sucia Isle really validates a lot of their central beliefs.

Yessss, except that this was all done by Shapers.

 

1. Shapers created the Geneforge.

2. While they were responsible enough to bar the island, they didn't destroy the Geneforge. Whoops.

3. The first two Shapers back on the island (Goettsch and the PC) also failed to destroy it.

4. Zakary and Barzahl, who took its secrets and propagated them? (And who also took the Drayks off the island?) Both Shapers.

 

I would agree that this validates those core tenets of the Shapers. It does not however validate the Shapers themselves, not as a people nor as a sect. They broke their own tenets, repeatedly, over and over again, as we have seen constant examples of in each game of the series.

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Yessss, except that this was all done by Shapers.

 

1. Shapers created the Geneforge.

2. While they were responsible enough to bar the island, they didn't destroy the Geneforge. Whoops.

3. The first two Shapers back on the island (Goettsch and the PC) also failed to destroy it.

4. Zakary and Barzahl, who took its secrets and propagated them? (And who also took the Drayks off the island?) Both Shapers.

 

I would agree that this validates those core tenets of the Shapers. It does not however validate the Shapers themselves, not as a people nor as a sect. They broke their own tenets, repeatedly, over and over again, as we have seen constant examples of in each game of the series.

 

I think for your analysis to be fully right (and it certainly has a point), we'd need to ask what the world would be like without the Shapers.

 

It seems you're judging them on a mix of how right their principles/values are, and how perfect their execution is. I'd tweak the second part to how good their execution is compared to some baseline. i.e., do the Shapers actively inspire the wrongdoing of the likes of Barzahl, Agatha and Monarch, or would it happen just as much or more without them? The Shaper Council isn't responsible for human nature.

 

I think we can imagine a solution which would prevent Barzahlic behaviour better than the Shapers. Shape complacency and obedience into every citizen. But obviously, that'd compromise too much on "principles/values".

 

Playing G2-5, I'm not convinced the Shapers actually inspire more Barzahlic behaviour than the baseline. I certainly think that, without denying that the Rebellion have a huge moral mandate, probably no faction throughout the Geneforge series offers a better solution than the traditional Shaper Council. You could argue Litalia's Trakovites, but if the Trakovite vision wins in G5 I have to ask: who has the power to stop the next Monarch in G6 when no-one's Shaping anymore?

 

Does anyone have any idea why the Shapers didn't just abandon the servile experiment centuries ago in favour of golems and better use of other Shapepunk tech? That'd be my ideal faction: one that is pro-Shaping but strongly favours Shaping more 'artifices' and less creatures.

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Barzahl, Agatha, and Monarch were all full-fledged Shapers. They weren't inspired by or enabled by Shapers, they were Shapers.

 

Without spoiling too much for you, I will also note that in G1 the Awakened are much less ethically compromised; and that one of the G1 endings (and not the one you'd expect) actually provides a more idyllic resolution to the Geneforge saga than what anyone else could offer later.

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I'm not saying they weren't Shapers. I'm saying, if the Shaper Council didn't exist, wouldn't the likes of Barzahl, Agatha and Monarch have Shaped anyway? This is a setting where an individual can gain incredible personal power, and in a short time – look at Shaila, and none of us even think she was all that gifted in the grand scheme of things. In that kind of setting, Barzahlic behaviour is always going to happen.

 

Overall, does the existence of the Council make abominations of Shaping more or less likely? You can't blame the Shapers for having bad eggs: only for a] having a bad philosophy, or b] for making bad eggs more likely than they already were.

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So I came upon Dhorass in Zhass-Uss in G2.

 

text1 = "This cryodrayk looks recently created. He is still young, and the magic in him is strong. The air around him is icy cold.";

text2 = "He grins. His teeth are still white and razor sharp. _I am Dhorass, made to defend Zhass-Uss and shepherd the drakons. Steal from us or harm us, and you will pay.

 

question = "Who created you?";

text1 = "_I was made by Easss, in Benerii-Uss._ He seems proud of this. _I was made specially, to guide the drakons. I am made so that they answer to me.

 

question = "You said that you shepherd the drakons?";

text1 = "_Yes. We were made to be linked, and they know, in their hearts, that I must guide them. Until my commands, they are free. When I speak, they listen. We are bound._";

text2 = "_I command them when there are tasks to be performed. There is almost no task they can not do._";

text3 = "_They will certainly be ready to slay and devour your kind, when the time comes.

 

question = "Why do they need controllers? Shouldn't you just let them be free?";

text1 = "Dhorass seems confused. This had not occured to him before. Finally, he says, _Drayks are headstrong and arrogant. We deserve to be. Drakons are that way also, perhaps too much so. But only for now, I am sure.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but that seems like slavery to me. Any moral rebel supporter want to explain why it isn't ? :p

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I don't think anyone would argue that the Drakons themselves are really any better the Shapers.

 

I agree with Elyssaen. Say what you will about the Shapers, they managed to keep the peace for a very long time and power hungry fellows always manage to worm their way through the woodwork so I can't blame them for that.

 

One thing bothers me about the whole Rebellion, and that's the bloodiness of it. Not all change has to be made through bloodshed, the Black Rights Movement and the Feminist Movement prove this. We've seen plenty of humans that feel for the creations and even a few Shapers. A grassroots campaign for creation rights might've done the trick over time. Instead, we have a bloody war that wrecks practically the entire continent. The Rebel's releasing the unbound does it for me. They'd rather wreck hell on earth for everyone instead of trying to find a more peaceful solution. Perhaps it really was the only way to get what they wanted, Shapers certainly aren't very flexible with their ideals, but the lack of trying for peaceful solution bothers me.

 

Slarty, which G1 ending are you referring to?

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i think perhaps you overestimate the utility of nonviolent protest in an autocratic society. winning hearts and minds counts for nothing unless they're shaper hearts and minds, and winning over shapers by sheer aura of goodness is a nonstarter. nonviolent resistance by, what, peasants and serviles? the half-dozen surviving drayks? they have no leverage. shapers would begin murdering them all at the first hint of disobedience, let alone allowing anything resembling a "grassroots campaign" to form. campaigning for what? to be elected to congress? shapers don't do that. they would be killed without a second thought. and then the shapers would get back to ruling the world.

 

which is not to say the rebels aren't unconscionably excessively violent. a nonviolent rebellion was never in the cards, but there were options other than "genocidal reptilian overlords". shapers are honestly preferable to genocidal reptilian overlords.

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The rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire would prove my point that it is possible. The Roman Empire rode hard upon the Christians, murdering them, but in the end it became the defacto religion without a full-fledged war. Ideas spread and they can even topple Empires if they spread far enough.

 

Again, not saying that the Rebellion is wrong just that it could be and it would've been nice if they at least tried for something less destructive. I'm not saying to go full Awakened but at least try!

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The Feminists and the Civil Rights movement happened in democracies. In Terrestia, if you claim that shaping is bad and should be stopped, you're executed. You are not allowed to have such thoughts. ANY shaper that showed sympathy pre-rebellion for the creations was expelled. Like Greta was in the start of GF3. Any shaper that showed sympathy for the creations during the rebellion was considered rebel.

 

There was not a peaceful solution possible that would allow the creations to have rights and individuality.

 

 

And the Rebels under Litalia were not better in that regard in GF4. (Please don't tell me about how they are treated in GF3!) Litalia was hunting down and executing Trakovites in GF4. Greta didn't go out of her way to hunt them, but the rebels were also killing people for their ideas.

 

 

Again, not saying that the Rebellion is wrong just that it could be and it would've been nice if they at least tried for something less destructive.

Rebels were bad too, don't get me wrong.

If Ghaldring is about to win, it takes 2nd 2-year-long rebellion to break the drakons.

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which is not to say the rebels aren't unconscionably excessively violent. a nonviolent rebellion was never in the cards, but there were options other than "genocidal reptilian overlords". shapers are honestly preferable to genocidal reptilian overlords.

 

of course, as it turns out in g5, genocidal reptilian overlords aren't on the cards in the long run either, even in the most pro-rebel ending. arguably that's a bit of a cop-out on jeff's part but it's still the ending that he wrote for that path

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3. The first two Shapers back on the island (Goettsch and the PC) also failed to destroy it.

 

There's ANOTHER Shaper in Sucia island in GF1? :eek:

Meh... I didn't know that. :(

 

 

of course, as it turns out in g5, genocidal reptilian overlords aren't on the cards in the long run either, even in the most pro-rebel ending. arguably that's a bit of a cop-out on jeff's part but it's still the ending that he wrote for that path

We see signs of that from GF4. The Cryodrayks have rebelled. And the PC is tasked with defending them from any Drakon retaliation. Perhaps you can attack them for the Drakons, not sure.

In the finalle, the Cryodrayks, in a "show of goodwill" allow Akari Blaze and several Drakon Shapers lead the 100+ Unbound to Western Morass.

As if they could stop 100 Unbound... :)

 

Anyway, I find it perefectly logical and expected that the human\servile side of the Rebellion would turn on Drakons as they were weakened. They haven't been very shy about their plans for the new order.

And the way they have alienated the Drayks (and nobody takes Gazers for granted) they were actually alone.

With the war ravaging mainly the Shaper provinces instead of the rebel provinces since the creation of the Unbound 4 years pre GF5, the humans of the rebellion (left kinda aside and alone in the east) won't suffer much for war fatigue.

So it's entirelly plausible the humans, still with many veterans in their ranks but rested from little fighting, would take action against Drakons.

 

 

As for the Trakovites: I could wholly and whole-heartedly back a "no more sentient creations" rule. Shaping plants, thands, Fyoras, Kashiiks, etc seems fine to me. Even Battle Alphas seem semi-sentient and they could be allowed.

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***Possible Spoiler below Alhoon***

 

 

 

The thing is, as I think Slarty hinted at. There is a possible peaceful grassroots ending from G1. Peaceful change did occur in at least one timeline with the Awakened having their own freedom and serviles being treated as separate, independent peoples.

 

Although my memory of this ending is very hazy as I saw it some years ago. Maybe there was something dark.

 

 

 

*****End Spoiler******

 

On a semi related note, I have just read that an AI has passed an IQ test at the level of a young child. This presents a good real-world comparison.

 

What happens if/when we create real intelligence? Should there be a limit on creating this intelligence and should it be controlled or should we make home kits so that we can all make our own sentient slave/AI-friend at home? What happens if that sentience is abused by people? What if that some of those sentient AI's murder people and start to become dangerous? Should they be destroyed?

 

Where do we draw the line? Can we replace 'AI' with 'Drayk'?

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EDIT: oh hey look a third page

 

I'm not saying they weren't Shapers. I'm saying, if the Shaper Council didn't exist, wouldn't the likes of Barzahl, Agatha and Monarch have Shaped anyway? This is a setting where an individual can gain incredible personal power, and in a short time – look at Shaila, and none of us even think she was all that gifted in the grand scheme of things. In that kind of setting, Barzahlic behaviour is always going to happen.

 

Overall, does the existence of the Council make abominations of Shaping more or less likely? You can't blame the Shapers for having bad eggs: only for a] having a bad philosophy, or b] for making bad eggs more likely than they already were.

Don't forget that the Council itself had a fair number of bad eggs on it! We don't meet the entire Council, and two of the members we do meet are clearly "bad eggs" by any standard! If you're going to judge the Shapers by the good eggs, isn't it only fair you also judge the Rebels by the good eggs? If our model Shapers are going to be Alwan and Rahul, then let our model Rebels be Greta and Gnorrel.

 

I think that's silly, though. If you want to judge the ethical and practical principles of the Shapers at their best, pre-war, go for it. But that's not the same thing as judging the Shapers as a whole -- especially not when you are comparing them to Rebels who never had the opportunity to be at their best, or to be pre-war.

 

Not all change has to be made through bloodshed, the Black Rights Movement and the Feminist Movement prove this.

Uh, neither one of those movements began under circumstances even remotely close to total biologically enforced enslavement. You might recall, though, that before the black rights movement could happen (I assume you're referring to the U.S.), slavery had to end, and that ended up requiring a war.

 

Slarty, which G1 ending are you referring to?

Given that there are a few people in this thread who haven't played G1 yet, let's just call it the second seven-letter ending.

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There's ANOTHER Shaper in Sucia island in GF1? :eek:

Meh... I didn't know that. :(

For your sanity and to aid your sense of mystery, note that I said "the first two Shapers" -- I did not say how many Shapers are on Sucia in G1.

 

That said, while I realize this thread technically has "no spoilers" in the title, it's morphed into a big philosophical debate spanning the whole series, so I don't think you can fairly expect everyone to dance around all info about G1 and G2.

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Don't forget that the Council itself had a fair number of bad eggs on it! We don't meet the entire Council, and two of the members we do meet are clearly "bad eggs" by any standard! If you're going to judge the Shapers by the good eggs, isn't it only fair you also judge the Rebels by the good eggs? If our model Shapers are going to be Alwan and Rahul, then let our model Rebels be Greta and Gnorrel.

 

I think that's silly, though. If you want to judge the ethical and practical principles of the Shapers at their best, pre-war, go for it. But that's not the same thing as judging the Shapers as a whole -- especially not when you are comparing them to Rebels who never had the opportunity to be at their best, or to be pre-war.

 

But my point is, there are always going to be bad eggs. Is Rawal, say, a bad egg because he's a Shaper? I don't think he is. I think if you removed the Shaper Council, the technology would still have been discovered and there'd still be just as many bad eggs. The counter-argument, that perhaps the Shaper Council inspire Barzahlic behaviours, would be interesting and might have merit though – I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate and slipping into the first interesting stance I saw to take.

 

I can't speak about Gnorrel. I much preferred Greta's Rebellion to the ur-drakons, but I'm not sure what her vision for society was. I decided to replay G5 instead of rush to G1 (I'm considering stalling G1 until a remake, but probably won't manage), so will interrogate G5's Greta a bit soon. It's perfectly reasonable if she was focused on just winning the war – I think they're morally justified to revolt even without a clear plan for a better society.

 

But in terms of ultimate vision for dealing with the problem of a world where Shaping is possible, the servile enslavement issue is a blip. It's a huge, tragic blip, but most Shapers didn't know it was slavery of a free-minded species and the Shaper vision can and must evolve past the blip, free the serviles and stop creating anything with free will.

 

The safeguarding of Shaping is bigger – it's a philosophically murky, eternal problem. And I think the Shaper Council is, as Blxz said, basically right. The Trakovite world would be worse, and a triumphant Awakened/human Rebellion would need to construct something Shaper Council-like to re-establish that safeguarding.

 

(Aside: I'm really tempted to post a thread inviting people to rank all the game's little-s shapers on a few measures of power/skill. I'm dying to have conversations about Alwan vs. Rahul on power, Rawal vs. Barzahl on ingenuity, etc. Has it been done to death here already?)

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True, in the US slavery ended by a war but was it necessary? Other countries did not have to go to war to do this. The UK did it without a war,and did it even before the US, and I'm certain hosts of other countries did the same. It is pretty obvious that even without the Civil War slavery would've ended anyway as the world was turning in that direction. Do you really think that the Confederates would still have slavery in 2015? There is no western power that has slavery today and the Confederates would?

 

I must strongly state though, I do not mean the Civil War was wrong. It ended slavery in 1865 in the US, which actually should've ended even earlier in 1776. That is a great and tremendous thing for which Americans should be proud. It's just that we have to wonder by just how much years did it shorten things and at the cost of what. Was the Civil War worth the price paid? I heard arguments for yes and arguments for no. Both have enough of a valid argument that I'm hesitant to decide who, in our narrow hind-sight view of history, is really right.

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The safeguarding of Shaping is bigger – it's a philosophically murky, eternal problem. And I think the Shaper Council is, as Blxz said, basically right. ...

and a triumphant Awakened/human Rebellion would need to construct something Shaper Council-like to re-establish that safeguarding.

They did. :)

But they didn't enslave anyone. That was the one victory of the rebellion that validates them morally to a degree in my eyes.

Both sides did atrocities, both sides had a few good people, many bad people and countless opportunists.

But in the end, the rebellion victorious takes the "good parts" of shaping law (limits to power) and leaves behind the "barred creations should be killed on sight" and breaks the slavery of the serviles. In the end, even the Drakons realize that geneforges give too much power, too fast with very little control. And even Drakons agree to them being destroyed.

 

 

 

 

True, in the US slavery ended by a war but was it necessary? Other countries did not have to go to war to do this. The UK did it without a war,and did it even before the US, and I'm certain hosts of other countries did the same.

 

They did so during the enlightment and industrial age though. A time when not everyone was executed for having different ideas. And still in many cases, abolition did take a war, decades of bloody unrest, revolution or a coup to come into effect.

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TO RETURN BACK TO GF3 IF POSSIBLE:

 

As said earlier, I miss the "?" marks of GF4-5 where they were telling me where is whom.

Now I have to wander all over the map to find who I am looking for.

Also, the graphics seem a bit... clunkier.

 

But I like the "Mysterious Shaper" (Litalia) that wanders around all powerful and fills the place with rogues.

I hear whispers about her, I find reports about her etc. Nobody knows anything...

 

I am still very early in the game as I didn't have much time to play because of social obligations. It takes me a couple of months to finish GF games (if we go by GF4 and GF5 standards).

 

Question:

How far can I go with BOTH Alwan and Greta in the party? I like their contribution to discussions.

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Agree totally alhoon but

 

 

the Obeyer ending and awakened ending in G1 hints that, originally, the shapers were not adverse to creation rights. It was the Rebellion itself with it's armies that freaked them out and caused all of them to go extreme. It makes one wonder if an earlier less proactive rebellion might've worked. Very possibly not but perhaps.

 

 

You can take them until just before the third island but that's it. And yeah, Litalia is awesome.

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Meh... if I play the fence, as I usually do, will both of them leave? Or will one of those ungrateful novices stick with me to the end?

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Your choice at the end of third island will permanently alienate one or the other of them, no matter what you do after that. If you stick with the same side after that, though, you keep the other one with you until the end of the game.

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I don't think that's true. I believe Greta leaves a bit earlier than the end no matter what you do. She does stay for the bulk of the game though.

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If you're going to judge the Shapers by the good eggs, isn't it only fair you also judge the Rebels by the good eggs?

But my point is, there are always going to be bad eggs.

I don't care whether you say "there will always be bad eggs" or you count the bad eggs with the good. But it's ridiculous to say "there will always be bad eggs" when looking at the Shapers, while judging the Rebels by the least reasonable among them.

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I'm not sure you can alienate both permanently, although to be sure you can still tick off the other one off by giving contradicting answers.

 

I do think it's the end of the second isle not third.

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True, in the US slavery ended by a war but was it necessary? Other countries did not have to go to war to do this. The UK did it without a war,and did it even before the US, and I'm certain hosts of other countries did the same.

Even in the late 1700's and early 1800's, slavery had a different footprint in countries like the UK. I don't know of any strong power wherein slavery was as huge and essential a component of their economy, that abolished slavery in that period. Given that the slave labour of serviles seems to be even more embedded in Shaper society than it was in the US South of that period, I don't think this arguments helps your case.

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I'm not sure you can alienate both permanently, although to be sure you can still tick off the other one off by giving contradicting answers.

 

I do think it's the end of the second isle not third.

I don't think you can alienate either one temporarily, can you? They leave if they disapprove of your final choices at the END of an isle, starting with isle three, IIRC. They don't leave because of conversation options or even your hidden rebel/shaper reputation stat, IIRC.

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Hmm...looking through the scripts...I have realized that, contrary to what I always assumed, making the pro-rebel choice at the end of Dhonal's Isle does not seem to lock you in to the rebel side. You can still come back to the Shaper side on Gull Island and go thus into the endgame. Truly, the one and only decisive factor in whether you will be considered rebel or shaper for the endgames seems to be

whether you have killed Khyryk before you click on the boat to go to the Isle of Spears.

There may be some alternate way to permanently fix your alignment prior to that, but I'm not sure what that could be.

 

Also, you can definitely take Greta with you to Isle of Spears (the last island), and I can't find any signs in the scripts that she deserts you sometime after that. There are departure speeches for both Alwan and Greta at the end of island 3 and island 4, but no others that I can find. So I'll stand by my conclusion that if your choice at the end of the third island matches you choice at the end of the fourth, you can keep the appropriate companion the remainder of the game.

 

Edit: actually, you apparently can alienate either Alwan or Greta when you leave island 2 as well (there are departure speeches for that island that I'd overlooked). Interesting. Looks like

killing Lankan and his so-called "rebels"

is the trigger for offending Greta on island 2; not sure what will tick off Alwan there...

Edited by Triumph
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Looking at this https://en.wikipedia...lavery_timeline I find that Russia freed 23 Million serfs in 1861, about 36 percent of their population. A little Google search tells me the US had 4 million slaves in 1860 before the Civil War, or about 12% of the population. I dunno how integral 36% percent of their population was to their economy but I assume it was significant. That said, as Alhoon pointed out, it was the time of industrialization. It made slavery slip to the wayside as people had less of a need to own slaves and so their outlook on things changed. Industrialization is something Geneforge does not have and so yes, I agree serviles are a much bigger pickle than slaves were in the mid 19th Century. (Although I got say, a Geneforge sequel game that would take place in 2015esque year, with all the attendant technological advances we have, piques my interest.)

 

And yes serfs are not the same as slaves but neither had real rights.

 

I didn't mean you could talk Alwan or Greta to go away, sorry if it came off that way. I meant you can give them the wrong response when they talk to you, which will prompt them to give you a scowl or something along those lines.

 

And wow, I didn't know that you could go back to the Shapers on the fourth isle. Learn something knew about the game every time. Also, it would seem apparently that you can get rid of both of them if there's a speech for isle 3 and 4. But Matt P's most excellent FAQ on GameFaqs on Geneforge 3 confirms my comment about alienating one them all the way on isle 2. Maybe there is a check on isles 2.3 and 4?

 

 

 

Edit: You sniped me Triumph. I'll get you next time.

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Greta didn't go out of her way to hunt them

No, but she said that she agreed with the Shaper's decisions to hunt down and execute all Trakovites.

 

And wow, I didn't know that you could go back to the Shapers on the fourth isle. Learn something knew about the game every time. Also, it would seem apparently that you can get rid of both of them if there's a speech for isle 3 and 4. But Matt P's most excellent FAQ on GameFaqs on Geneforge 3 confirms my comment about alienating one them all the way on isle 2. Maybe there is a check on isles 2.3 and 4?

Yes.

 

 

Greta will leave if you kill the Harmony Isle rebels, kill The Creator, or free Shaper Agatha. Likewise, Alwan will leave if you give the canister to Lankan, repair The Creator, or kill Khyryk.

I haven't tested to see what she does if you kill Shaper Agatha and use her key to reach the Isle of Spears-- I know that Alwan doesn't give a crap, though. Note that using the Khor's Deep docks without killing Khyryk will make all the rebels on the Isle of Spears hostile to you. I have no idea if helping the rebels on Dhonal and then helping the Shapers on Gull will make the Shapers of the Besieged Camp non-hostile or not. I'm guessing that the whole island will be hostile if you kill Shaper Agatha and use the key without killing Khyryk, though.

 

 

How far can I go with BOTH Alwan and Greta in the party? I like their contribution to discussions.

Until the end of Dhonal Isle (3rd island), just as long as you don't give Lankan the canister or kill him on the second island. If you grab the strange canister from Diwaniya's basement, then don't enter the rebel camp until you hand it over to the purity officer at Dhonal Keep.

 

Also, the graphics seem a bit... clunkier.

Oh, man, you're going to hate G2 and G1, then. G3 is actually a huge graphical improvement over G2-- the biggest difference by far between one Geneforge game and its immediate successor. I mean, you think G3 has "clunky" graphics?

 

I don't think you can alienate either one temporarily, can you?

No. You can take the Shaper path on Dhonal, then take the Rebel path on Gull, but Greta still won't join you. Alwan you don't have a chance to speak to since the whole school (including him) will be hostile, even though he has a line in the Academy dlg file where he refuses to rejoin you.

 

Shaping plants, thands, Fyoras, Kashiiks, etc seems fine to me.

You'll change your mind once you meet Torsten in Ft. Kentia, trust me.

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Um, I already agreed with that in the above post.

 

 

 

Also, the graphics seem a bit... clunkier.

Oh, man, you're going to hate G2 and G1, then. G3 is actually a huge graphical improvement over G2-- the biggest difference by far between one Geneforge game and its immediate successor. I mean, you think G3 has "clunky" graphics?

 

I'd agree with this but man do I hate the G3 Guardian graphic. I way prefer the original one.

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Not me. I hate the original one. Makes me feel like the character is a robot. Granted the G1~2 sprite is a more accurate representation of full Guardians, though (while I think the G3 sprite is more representative of the apprentice Guardians)

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For GF1, I have already taken the graphics mod. I am also slowly working to change some creations (Battle Alphas) to something prettier.

 

Guardians ... seem the same to me from GF3 to GF5.

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Serfs have leverage. You need serfs to grow your food, and it's hard to grow new serfs. Serviles do not have leverage, because they are replaceable. Also, a large part of the motivation for Russia freeing its serfs was that it was widely expected to empower the nation economically and militarily, because that had been happening in the rest of Europe and everyone could clearly see it. The Shapers do not seem to be aware of the benefits of transitioning from a feudal(ish? Shaper government is unclear.) society to a capitalist one.

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Guardians ... seem the same to me from GF3 to GF5.

 

You are correct. The original G1 graphic for Shapers and Guardians got reused in G2, but then changed in G3. Th new G3 Shaper and Guardian graphics persisted for the last two games of the series. I actually rather prefer the G1/G2 depiction of those characters. For whatever reason, Jeff didn't feel any need to tweak the Agent graphic, and it stayed basically the same all the way through.

 

However, overall, the single biggest artistic shift in the series was, IIRC, between G4 and G5.

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I would agree. At last we had more than one model for people.

And more stuff.

 

 

Now, if only GForge could be re-released using GF5 graphics and system...

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I would agree. At last we had more than one model for people.

And more stuff.

 

 

Now, if only GForge could be re-released using GF5 graphics and system...

 

There are plans for this to happen eventually, but only after the Avernum trilogy remakes and Avadon trilogy are complete.

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