New here! Geneforge 5 comments

[alhoon]

Hi all! I am new here and also fairly new in the awesome series (Finished GF4, just left the mountains in GF5).

 

 

I loved, loved, loved GF4. Haven't played the previous ones (except for 2 mins in GF3).

I hate to admit, that while I had no problem with graphics and mechanics in GF4 and I could manage GF3 from what I've seen, I don't think I would be able to enjoy GF1 and GF2 because of the kinda weird mechanics and screen.

 

Anyway, here are a few things I want to talk about GF5. There will be some spoilers from me, but please no spoilers from responders

There is a mix of questions and of things I want to say to get off my chest.

 

I play a Shaper (class), slightly pro-rebel in GF5. Although I see stuff I don't like by the rebels. Staff I sacrificed my char to avoid in GF4 to be sincere.

Anyway, the shaper tyranny I am against. But not at any cost...

 

 

Questions and comments:

1. Leveling. Is leveling insanely faster in GF5 than in GF4 or I broke something? I finished the demo at lvl 20! In GF4, I hit 20 somewhere around Monarch's swamps.

 

2. (rant begins) Rawal is not a shaper! No shaper would have a geneforge in his basement (so to speak)! It's the very thing that started the rebelion.

I don't know why he built it (don't tell me) or why he more-or-less made me shaper (again, please don't tell me).

But Every shaper or loyalist in GF4 was considering me a freak. To just have a councilor say "Hey buddy, here's a canister. Oh, and let me teach you some shaping cause it's convinient for my cause" is very un-shapish.

I don't consider Rawal a shaper and I'm actually annoyed when people refer to him as shaper. In fact it annoys me more than GF4's reference to Monarch as shaper.

I plan to rat out on him the first chance I get, that he has a geneforge in his basement, that he allows outsiders to be trained in Shaping (stuff that I had to jump through dozens of hoops in GF4 to get access to) and that he shapes people.

(\rant)

 

3. In GF4, I wasn't a Trakovite. Yet, I couldn't in good concience allow the Drakons to spam mad, rogue killing machines. That's what we fought Monarch with the shapers for! A 100 or so, to turn the tide would be OK. So... I messed with the controls.

(Actually I did all 4 endings I could but my "favorite" is the one you destroy the machines after the Unbound are made)

But GF5 has the "Unbound unlimited" it seems.

When I first heard it in the beginning, I thought "well, perhaps they mellowed them out". And then I found refugees that described how towns are wrecked appart by Unbound. And a rebel servile led me to believe the other part of the Rebel ending, the Drakons doing their thing shaper-y oppressing everyone else seems to be true as well!

(again please don't tell to what extend that's true).

 

4. I plan to help the rebels win or better, make the Shapers lose. If possible I would go for something like Rawal told me Shaper Astoria goes for: A truce!

That way Barred creations could slip to the rebel parts and the Drakons wouldn't dare go bat-crazy and oppress everyone else.

I want both sides to co-exist, even if it's an uneasy peace.

And if possible... I would do it with the Drakons severely weakened. I don't like them.

 

Now: Please answer me with a "yes", "no" or "kinda" : Can a peace treaty between Shapers\Rebels be worked out to stop the bloodshed? Perhaps with the Drakons taken down a couple of notches?

Is there a good ending this time, that's not one side wiped out their cities burned, their people enslaved\wiped out?

(Don't tell me faction leader for that)

 

 

Thank you for your time.

[Randomizer]

1. Leveling goes up faster because you can still get experience from weaker monsters 5 levels lower than in the other games.

[alhoon]

Hmmm... so, Councilor Astoria lets rogue creations (serviles) hang around in her province. That was weird. Not to mention that it's a thiiiinly kept secret that rebels abound on those two places.

I wonder how the rebel settlements cope with the unbound. They are close to them and they don't seem to have enough defences to fend one off, without much damage.

[Triumph]

Re: Rawal: being a "Shaper" has multiple levels of meaning. It can refer to having the magical ability to shape, or to political affiliation, or to philosophical alignment. It can even refer to one's function within an organization (i.e. Shaper as opposed to agent or guardian). Rawal may not embody the ideals of the Shapers, but he is still very much a Shaper in some of these other senses.

 

As for endings, yes, a couple of the endgame alignments you can choose will lead to an outcome resembling what you describe.

[alhoon]

Thanks!

 

As for Shapers... lifecrafters are shapers too but they don't have the title. I was meaning shaper as per member of a secretive, paranoid organization under threat by the very existance of the geneforge. More or less, Rawal is an insult to nearly everything shapers stand for but everyone is angry with Astoria.

[Goldengirl]

In Rawal's defense (yikes, never thought I'd say that), Shapers were the first ones to make a Geneforge.

[alhoon]

Yeah, and we all saw where that led them! And in their defense, they barred the whole island around it. Knowing what happened and making a geneforge in a place where creations come and go with a "Shapers only, don't enter" warning as if rogue creations would care is both against everything shapers stand for and... irresponsible.

 

Also, I did a quest more for Rawal and now...he wants me to bring him a book on how to make cannisters! Because he claims that "at some point it will be allowed and I want a headstart!" (Yeah, right. Cause we will believe a powercrazed opportunist wizard with a geneforge on his basement. I am amnesiac buddy, not a fool)

[Lilith]

Come to think of it, it's interesting how your opinion on how strictly shaping should be controlled and your opinion on creation rights are basically two separate axes and both play a role in the plot and faction choices (especially in G2 and G5), but the games only have mechanics to track one of them and sometimes use one as a proxy for the other anyway.

[Slawbug]

Well, before G4, the factions all lined up pretty clearly on the creation rights continuum: Barzites--Loyalists/Obeyers--Awakened--Takers/Rebels. Goettsch and Trajkov track with those. Even shaping controls were easy to track as they just went pretty much in a bell curve along that continuum. The Trakovites wouldn't even cause *that* much of a detour from the line since they'd be close to the center of that curved continuum, anyway. It's really just Taygen in G5 that throws the single curve for a loop.

[alhoon]

Personally I believe shaping should be more controlled than the rebels do and that the shapers should really, really chill about those weird controls. I am also against enslaving Serviles.

[Goldengirl]

It's weird to me that the literal enslavement of a sentient race goes from being a major focus of the series to a peripheral issue to the larger cause of unregulated Shaping.

[Slawbug]

Particularly since G4 and G5 allow you to play as a servile, and suddenly it's like, whatevs. Imagine being a Geneforge-enabled servile in G1!

[alhoon]

I don't feel that the enslavement is being pushed to the periphery in GF4 and GF5. I haven't played the other games but it certainly shocked me to find out the shapers MADE a race destined to be slaves. The serviles rising up is one of the main pillars of the rebellion. In GF5 I have often questions\quests about "how you feel about the Serviles?" and I find out that being decent gives Rebel reputation, so I may "lie" on occasion to get shaper rep.

(And I think I have to kill some serviles for the crime of not wanting to be slaves just for the better training shapers offer. I know, I'm a hypocrite )

 

Perhaps you feel it's pushed in the periphery cause you had exposure to the issue on other games so it didn't feel fresh? The -MAIN- reason I side with rebels is... the serviles. I don't mind that much if a guild of mages becomes over-protective of their secrets and powers. Sure, they need to chill but a devastating war is not the answer.

But ... a sentient race DESTINED to be a slave race? killing Drayks and Drakons just because they are "inconvenient"? That's kinda too much and worthy of war.

[Lilith]

I don't feel that the enslavement is being pushed to the periphery in GF4 and GF5. I haven't played the other games but it certainly shocked me to find out the shapers MADE a race destined to be slaves. The serviles rising up is one of the main pillars of the rebellion. In GF5 I have often questions\quests about "how you feel about the Serviles?" and I find out that being decent gives Rebel reputation, so I may "lie" on occasion to get shaper rep.

(And I think I have to kill some serviles for the crime of not wanting to be slaves just for the better training shapers offer. I know, I'm a hypocrite )

 

Perhaps you feel it's pushed in the periphery cause you had exposure to the issue on other games so it didn't feel fresh? The -MAIN- reason I side with rebels is... the serviles. I don't mind that much if a guild of mages becomes over-protective of their secrets and powers. Sure, they need to chill but a devastating war is not the answer.

But ... a sentient race DESTINED to be a slave race? killing Drayks and Drakons just because they are "inconvenient"? That's kinda too much and worthy of war.

 

There's further information available in Geneforge 1 which arguably makes things even worse.

 

 

It's implied that the first serviles were originally developed from the people of a nation who lost a war with the Shapers and were systematically rounded up and modified to serve as slaves.

 

[alhoon]

But... shaping the living is as illegal as it gets!

 

QUESTION: I am level 30 in GF5. I just got permission to go to Alwan's place (wander a bit there and all). I still cannot defeat an Unbound (and I have a quest to do it) because, while I am uber-high level... I still haven't got -any- rank 3 creations! And I also have kinda low spells.

Is that normal? I had wingbolts and Kyshaak by this time in GF4.

 

Have I missed something? I avoid cannisters like the plague BTW to avoid the cannister-madness. I have used 2-3 or so and I plan to use cannisters if they give me gazers, drayks and drakons.

I have a few places I didn't go in Astoria's area, cause I want to progress the story, get rid of Rawal's tool and of course... do as much as possible AFTER I get Drayks to level them up.

 

 

EDIT: The fort I talked about, in Alwan's area, called Defiance... it's under attack in the east. And everyone sits calmly inside with people commenting "send more creations" while ... stuff fights at the east wall.

[Lilith]

But... shaping the living is as illegal as it gets!

 

Well, so is building a Geneforge, but that happened too.

 

]QUESTION[/b]: I am level 30 in GF5. I just got permission to go to Alwan's place (wander a bit there and all). I still cannot defeat an Unbound (and I have a quest to do it) because, while I am uber-high level... I still haven't got -any- rank 3 creations! And I also have kinda low spells.

Is that normal? I had wingbolts and Kyshaak by this time in GF4.

 

Have I missed something? I avoid cannisters like the plague BTW to avoid the cannister-madness. I have used 2-3 or so and I plan to use cannisters if they give me gazers, drayks and drakons.

I have a few places I didn't go in Astoria's area, cause I want to progress the story, get rid of Rawal's tool and of course... do as much as possible AFTER I get Drayks to level them up.

 

There are definitely opportunities to get higher-tier creations by the point where you are. If you sneak into the off-limits area of Gazaki-Uss, you can get yourself a canister of Create War Trall, the fifth-tier battle creation. It's worth using a canister for; they have a serious claim to being the best creations in the game. Also, this thread has a comprehensive list of people who will train you in making creations if you scroll down a little.

[Triumph]

Speaking of shifting themes and emphases...

 

If I remember correctly, the consequences of canister use are vastly less significant in G5 than they were in G2/G3/G4, with just one or maybe two encounters in the entire game caring about your canister-count. You won't find your PC flying into canister-fueled rages like in previous games.

[Slawbug]

I think there is a check for canister use in the endgame of G5, though I might be mixing that up with G4.

[Randomizer]

There is a canister check at Dera Bridge in GF5, but it doesn't seriously affect what happens.

 

GF4 has several canister checks on whether you immediately enter combat.

[alhoon]

If I remember correctly, the consequences of canister use are vastly less significant in G5 than they were in G2/G3/G4, with just one or maybe two encounters in the entire game caring about your canister-count. You won't find your PC flying into canister-fueled rages like in previous games.

 

Really? I had dialogues of "You seem not that much affected by cannisters" I get here and there and there are times that I get a "you manage to keep your temper down".

But I guess cannister-madness doesn't affect everyone the same way.

Monarch went completely bonkers \ megalomania

GF4 hero flew into rage

Litalia was... weird in GF4. Jared lost his humanity to the point Drakons considered him shaped enough for respect.

GF5 got Amnesia...

 

So, aside of one encounter, I won't have any problems from cannister use? I consider "dialogue interruptions" as problems even if they don't get to combat.

(and yes, consequences aside I would totally take a cannister for War Tralls and I already got one for Drayks. I will also get Gazers and Drakons, consequences be damned)

[Goldengirl]

Other than Dera Bridge, nothing at all happens, and even that event is a pretty minuscule change. I think the in-game is that the PC is already driven insane from canisters, self-Shaping, and the Geneforge, so having any more doesn't have any effect on sanity. As I recall it, nothing changes in the endgame whatsoever.

[alhoon]

I want to cry... I passed up a Rotgroth cannister. Well, it's still there near the grave of that Gazer with the 6-7 weird things (thanks for that Rebels) that I had to fight like 6-7 times to win without losing anyone of my trusty creations. But at the tme, I have found a shaper to train me in Kashyyks, so...

 

 

Anyway.

I found a spellcasting outsider serving Rawal inside rules-crazy Alwan's city!

I hope that this guy's mention of "resources in the foundry repository" means books or stuff and not cannisters for shaping his followers. Like Rawal gave to me once.

And it's the geneforge in the basement too...

So, things start to look quite bad for Rawal. He's teaching (at the least, quite possibly shaping) outsiders to use magic. Not just "freaks" like me, but outsider humans.

Of course, Rawal being a councilor (till I kill him!) he may actually say "I'm a councilor so I declare that person eligible to learn a little of magic". But I have the STRONG suspicion that Rawal trains (or shapes) his followers without any regard of the Shaper law.

 

To surmise my feelings so far:

- Rawal is not interested in the least about shaper law or values, he's just interested in power and quite possibly enforcing "Rawal Law" instead of Shaper law if he wins. He's immoral and powerhungry and if left unchecked he may well become a great threat to the land.

- Alwan is a fanatic. Loyal, willing to bend the law as long as it's done to win the war. He 100% believes in the shaper laws but he seems to think that to win the war, exceptions to those sacred laws must be made. I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of a victorious war he may request to stand trial for his crimes.

- Astoria is... sensible and realistic. She betrays SOME of the most sacred shaper laws but she does it because the situation seems to be "change and humiliation or total annihilation within a few years"

- Rogue, non-rebel Drayks everywhere cursing the Drakons. But tidings for the rebelion.

 

In the light of this, I think that Astoria's is the best way. Not even a "least bad" way, but a good way. Shapers keeping control of most of the land with more respect to creations while Drakon plans for annihilation of anything shapers hold (and the majority of other life) fail.

 

 

 

Other stuff:

I see ruins everywhere. Drayks are opposing the Drakons. Unbound give me a merry chase through half of Mera province. Agent Astoria wants to deal with the Drakons (through me). General Alwan is willing AGAIN to trust an outsider that according to his beliefs should not exist. A shaper gal, in Alwan's land studdies barred creations. And Rawal... Rawal ignores every shaper law in existance.

When I saw the "rebel" ending in GF4, I didn't think that things would go THAT bad.

[alhoon]

I Met with Ghaldring. Except this time he proclaimed himself lord of the Rebellion.

He was less annoying than usual (despite the tests; they were less demeaning than GF4). "We heard about a powerful shaper coming out of nowhere, acting as an unaligned agent" owww... He even didn't do his test stuff on me when I told him I'll be insulted. Flatery from Ghaldring. I am top-notch.

And yes, I see what you were all saying about the cannister background. For a Drakon to say that... he talks to a non-human. My char was a cannister junky to a degree that Drakons consider him valuable. Hence, I am, indeed, a creation.

 

Greta had a lot to say about the Drakons... including a warning she gave "His Arrogance" Ghaldring that when the war is won, ALL of the rebels will be free, whatever the Drakons think about it. Or they will face a 2nd rebellion.

Well, it wasn't a secret but to listen her say it to Ghaldring's face...

 

Again... I had to play hide-and-seek with the Unbound. Unbound mk-2 actually. Akhari Blaze had trouble enough containing the Mk-1 ones in GF4 and those seemed more powerful\crazy. It's TOO great a risk. For everyone. If a couple of them slip out of control in the rebel lands, there will be loses which would trigger more Unbound becoming rogue prematurely as their handlers die. And if 10-12 Unbound break away... there will be ruins this side of the Line too.

I believe Ghaldring is lying about his offer of truce. The even-worse Unbound are being tested. I believe he plans to break his own truce in a year or so, after having slipped a few Unbound and Unbound mk2 (or mk3, why stop at 2 after all??) in the shapers' lands.

The part that he was lying to me when I was talking to him, doesn't give him much credibility anyway.

This made betraying him for that awesome, awesome creation str+4, dex+4 belt and giving info about the Unbound mk-2 and the castle (as if Shapers will ever reach it) easier. That belt... I can't pass it up.

Now, with my Kashyyk, War Trall, veteran Drayk and high level, boosted Cryora and that nice nice belt... I can finally try to fight the Unbound. Those beasts were hunting me for half the game. Now it's payback!

 

Another thing: Alwan kiiinda recognised me. Greta knew about my memory loss, acted as if she knew me; Ghaldring too. My character considered Greta very familiar but couldn't remember

Could it be that I'm playing a GF2 or GF3 shaper? (don't answer me please! It's a rhetoric question)

 

Servile stuff: I met Mekhen, the servile that helped me in the very beginning. The one I -did not- betray to Rawal.

She told me that after the first year back, she was more a worker than a spy, that servitude is bred in serviles. That shook my loyalty to Astoria. After all, Astoria is a shaper, even if a peculiar one.

Also, she agrees with me that Rawal cares about power and not to squash the rebellion, he's not a big threat (yet)

[alhoon]

Ahem... what's that quest I got from Rawal about a possible Trakovite Councilor? A disease to wipe out all creations (of course myself with them)?

Has everyone got really, really mad? That's near-Monarch level insanity. And I say that after going for the Trakovite ending in GF4 (because I didn't like the Unbound, not because I'm against shaping)

 

 

EDIT:

 

I defeated the Unbound! An army of them (ok, that's 6-7) holed up in the castle!

I also found materials to make artifacts. I have artifacts and items to give my creations a ton of bonuses to their stats. New creations I can make are about the same level as most of my leveled up ones.

 

I could banker up next to an essense pool, keep my high lvl war trall and send out waves of creations to slowly whittle down defenders from the security of the room. I.e. I could play Moseh-like

 

I am unstopable now.

 

Should I go kill Rawal now? Or he will kill me with the command tool automatically? If I kill him, do the shapers turn upon me?

Oh well, I'll see. I'll save the game and attack him.

[Goldengirl]

His name is Taygen. He isn't Trakovite, actually, but there are a lot of in-game reasons to show him as cartoon-ishly evil. I think Jeff added him as a hardcore Shaper option / for variety and roleplay purposes, because I don't know how people would actually take him seriously. If Alwan is the status quo, Taygen is the extreme wing of the Shapers.

 

There is a separate Trakovite option that is a lot more moderate (strangely so, tbh).

 

Killing Rawal (or any of the Councillors) automatically makes you a Rebel; it's not hard to see why. But that's a point-of-no-return, in which you're stuck in Ghaldring's camp. You also need to get the control tool out before you can attack Rawal, which any of the factions will do for you. You'll lose some stats (a point of endurance, I think?) but it's essential to do the endgame.

[alhoon]

Ahem... I figured the bad way that I need to remove the control tool first. I have guessed he would go for the autokill option, but I wanted to see how much I could harm him before he did that.

 

QUESTION: Rebels = Ghaldring only? No moderate rebel faction, like Astoria is for the shapers?

 

I thought there would be Shaper harsh\moderate and rebel harsh\moderate + Trakovite or Rawal

[Goldengirl]

You could say that Astoria is a rebel moderate option, and perhaps even the Trakovites.

 

But, basically, Ghaldring is the only true Rebel. The Ghaldring endgame is radically different from all of the other endgames, and forecloses them as options.

[alhoon]

Well, considering that Astoria says "You're too close to the shapers, I can't trust you" it seems the developers thought the same. If you're too good with the shapers, Astoria doesn't trust you.

Hence, Astoria is oddly...the moderate. For both sides.

[Slawbug]

Astoria is the closest equivalent to the Awakened from G1 and G2. At least there *is* a moderate option, which G3 and G4 lacked entirely.

[alhoon]

I haven't played G1 and G2, but from what I heard in GF4 and in Penta, the awakened serviles were all about "we are sentient creatures, we can coexist with the shapers if they let us"... like Penta does. The very existance of Penta is a testament to what I think awakened work for, although the serviles there think that one day or another a Shaper will come by and kill them all.

 

 

I also haven't played GF3 (more than a few mins that is), but in GF4 the character, while important enough to be there, is not the one making the plans AT ALL. They are made by zealots and fanatics. Alwan plans to destroy every last rebel. Drakons ignore everyone and decide by themselves to kill every last shaper.

You are left with a switch.

You either doom the rebellion or doom the shapers with Trakovite option (a single batch of Unbound) being the most moderate. I wish there was a more moderate option; something like convincing the Drakons to create batches of 50 Unbound instead of 100, that would wither and die within 3-4 weeks, instead of having a lifespan of years.

 

 

Back to GF5, I am conflicted between going for Astoria and going for the rebels. I want to kill Rawal (haven't met shaper Taygen the mad yet) but I don't want the Drakons to win; they will just become as bad as the shapers.

 

 

I was also thinking about my, kinda naive, "let's kill X councilor real quick cause I really think he's bad for the world, but I'll side with Astoria"

Agent Astoria (or any councilor) may want some of their rivals out. I doubt that includes "Dead". Even if it does mean they prefered some of them dead... what about the hundreds of other shapers?

To kill Rawal for the indignities he brought on me, I'll have to cleave through his (innocent) guards and assistants. Then, word that "the treacherous freak in Rawal's employ killed him!" would spread like wildfire! It's not that shapers need a lot of convincing to turn on me. No councilor, even those that agreed with the act, would be even able to stop his or her guards from attacking me. If anyone tried, he or she would be branded rebel\traitor. And again, it's not that the shapers are hard to convince to call others traitors (i.e. Astoria).

[alhoon]

QUESTION: If I attack Alwan's forts (for the XP and loot, I don't mind the people there) do I go Auto-rebel? It makes kinda 100% sense for everyone to consider you an enemy of the Shapers if you go berserk and take down a whole fort... but, I have to ask just in case I can soar up some nice XP.

[alhoon]

I found an old Drakon in a crypt, very old apparently, one of the first created. He's against cannister mass consumption (and he told me to do the same) and accused Ghaldring of being shaper-wannabe.

My question is... how long ago were the events of GF2? In the beginning of the game, we're 10 years or so in the rebellion. How can a drakon be "very old" already? I thought we were like 20-30 years from GF2

[Goldengirl]

G3 takes place a few years after G2. There are more accurate estimates, but I want to say it's five years past, perhaps more.

 

G4 takes place 7 years after the Rebellion began in G3; G5 takes place 10 years after the Unbound were unleashed in G4.

 

Plus, the Drakons had been in G2 for a while, so there's probably a few years that could be added there as well.

[alhoon]

LITALIA IS TRAKOVITE NOW! ! !

 

She gave me the usual "chilling talk" that I have come to expect from her. Hints on terrorism. Trakovites fighting back.

 

 

That's the same Litalia that in GF4 wanted the Trakovite Drayk, bless be his hide for telling me how to stop the Unbound without dooming the rebellion, dead AT ALL COSTS.

That had given orders for Trakovites to be killed among the rebel lands on sight. That she was shaping herself to power and then shaping herself back to humanity...

That's the same Litalia that I tried to convince OUT of building the Unbound and was losing influence with the Rebels as she was trying to convince me that the Unbound are absolutely needed and she is 100% behind them. We're not talking GF4 Greta's "well, I don't like it but we have no alternative" we're talking bat-crazy hag being 100% behind the plan to unleash the Unbound.

And now, Litalia tells me how she was disgusted by the Unbound and how she fears her friend, cowarrior, other-hand-of-the-rebellion Ghaldring has shaped out his sanity for power.

 

Also, for a Trakovite haven, there's a heck of a lot Kashyyks, Tralls and wingbolts. And she admits that she will shape to protect the trakovites. One shaper is an army. And Litalia is powerful, tactical, intelligent, zealot and insane. Trakovites are more than a nuisance or they will be soon under her.

She brought the rebellion up and along with a rogue drakon, the shaper empire to its knees. And now she starts again.

 

 

Strong speech by her. She seems to really care for Ghaldring... but I'm not sure she won't ask me to kill him (don't tell me please). She's bat-crazy.

And yet, some of the Trakovite creations say the right thing: "Drakons are turning to shapers".

Now I am, again, torn between Astoria, Litalia and Drakons. Litalia out of loyalty from GF4. And for opposing (finally) Ghaldring. And because you told me that Trakovite path is moderate.

 

What a glorious, glorious game series to make me ponder for hours which of those imaginary (but deeply developed) NPCs I will fall behind. To forge personal loyalty with, to want to know their stories deeper.

Hadn't have this much fun with an RPG for years; I've read books that seem to have less story to say than these games.

 

 

BTW, Litalia told me that I have the power to control the cannister madness, or that I have learned to do it.

 

 

NOTE: I'm 95% sure that GF5 starts 10 years after the rebellion began and 4 years after the Unbound were unleashed.

In her story, Litalia made it sound as if she and her buddy Ghaldring were mass-shaping for years before the attack on the school, I would say GF3 is 7-8 years after GF2.

So I think we're like 18-19 years after GF2... but if Drakons were around for longer then it's hard to pin it down.

 

 

NOTE2: Both Litalia and the narrative hint we have been enemies in the past with her.

[Slawbug]

Litalia's narratives about her past in different games, conflict with each other. The basic story is similar but the dates they suggest are different. As a result, she is not the most reliable source for dating.

[alhoon]

She's not reliable source about anything except being totally dedicated to a cause, kill, kill, kill... and abandoning it after a time. Shaper, she massacred tons of Drakons and Drayks. Rebel, she attacked a school and helped create the Unbound. Trakovite (with tons of creations, mind you) and already asked me to do an assassination for starters.

 

I love her

 

I may go Trakovite after all (I know I will at some point; I plan to go as far as possible unaligned and then try varous factions)

[alhoon]

I Went Moseh on some Kyshaaks SE from Perikalia.

I made 3 plated clawbugs with so much dex (thanks to my items and boost) that the Kyshaaks have 0% chance to hit. I have them with 0 int, so I sit by the corner of the zone and press end turn while my clawbugs destroy EVERYTHING unhindered.

 

It feels so ... shaper right now.

 

Moseh (without being nailed to a machine or drawing life from serviles) for the win!

[alhoon]

A drakon gave me a quest to kill... Litalia. And not tell Ghalding cause he will kill us. According to the drakon labmaster, when she told Ghalding about Litalia being a "Traitor" he was so enraged that he nearly killed her.

[alhoon]

If Vener (a captive in Alwan's castle) is to be believed, Rawal saved my character's ... life so be it. The way Vener describes me, with skin completely like wax, glowing eyes, face shifting all the time, completely lost in madness...

that's worse than Litalia or Shaila (the lifecrafter gone mad in GF4). It reinforced my decision to NOT partake in cannisters any more.

(I have already used like 8-9. I stole lots from Gazaki Uss. A very powerful spell and all level 5 creations. I walk around with a Drakon, a Gazer, a Wartrall and my trusty Cryora as a mascot)

 

Also, I completed the Secret Access Road quest for the Drakons... and next time I passed by fort Rockfall it has already fallen. A pity. I liked the budding romance between the commander and the pretty merchant Felicia there. I was sorry for two things.

First is that I didn't take the fort down myself and second for the death of those two. Let's hope that they survived although I consider it unlikely.

QUESTION: How can I access the forge in there? The lock is still closed and I can't find a way to open it. Should I go aaaaall the way up to enchant my stuff?

[Goldengirl]

Taking down Fort Rockfall is something you would need an endgame level character. They aren't as fortified as the other forts in the Line, but they have reaper turrets which can make short work of any cocky lifecrafters.

 

The fall of Fort Rockfall is sad, in part because the characters are so lovable, but that's the cost of war. Your actions have consequences.

 

As for the forge, it's lost. It would only open if you had done some quests at Rockfall (for the commander, if I recall right) before the battle happened. There is another forge in the Dera Reaches, though.

[alhoon]

I don't think I would need something so high. I'm at level 44 and I would bunker down in the essence pool and start going Moseh, sending out high level Drayks boosted by my items that raise their stats. It would take some time, but I would probably clear up the "cannon fodder".

 

And even without "cheat-making dozens of creations by the essence pool", I test-attacked Alwan's fort at my level. It was suprisingly easy, even when my 4 creations were surrounded by 12+ guards and serviles.

I didn't play the whole thing cause I just did it to see how it goes, but I could kill 2 guards per round. And if I decided to really go crazy, I would have made a couple more creations to soak attacks.

 

But I agree. Why it had to be THAT fort and not the one with the snobbish guardian and shaper?

[alhoon]

Just set foot in Dera Reaches. The cannister madness returned but I managed to hold it off.

 

I see, right away, that Taygen's faction is not for me. I met some serviles, beaten every day for being serviles.

It will be quite hard I guess to raise my standing with shapers (Shaky as it is right now) in this place.

In the Oasis, everyone gives me grief about my creations. Taygen's consort though, seemed nice. Taygen himself, while radical, doesn't seem hateable either. I don't like his laws or mostly, how they are enforced, but so far he's like a weird old grand-pa. For the time, I prefer him from Alwan and he's miles ahead of Rawal.

However, as far as shapers go, I would consider Taygen a borderline shaper; not for the consort but for his views on creations. I believe after the war ended and things settled down, he would be considered heretic and dangerous and would be disciplined by the rest of the shapers.

 

So... how are Trakovites hunted down for their dangerous ideas but "Taygenites" are just frowned upon?

Because Taygen is a councilor and nobody wants to risk opening another front yet.

[Hyena of Ice]

Litalia's narratives about her past in different games, conflict with each other. The basic story is similar but the dates they suggest are different. As a result, she is not the most reliable source for dating.

 

The description of Alwan and Greta being in their early 30's would suggest 10 years bet. the end of G3 and beginning of G4. Also, I don't think 7 years is enough education for Alwan to become a general or gain any sort of influence at all, since in G1, we're told that after the schooling, that Shapers must then undergo 5 years of some menial training as assistants to alchemists, herbalists, living tool breeders, and the like. Then we're told in G2 that they return to a few more years of schooling. That's in addition to the remainder of schooling that Alwan had to finish for the year that the school got attacked (probably anywhere from 4 to 8 months worth) This would give him very little time to climb the shaper ladder. Hell, even at 10~11 years after the events in G3, that gives Alwan very little time to rise in the ranks. It also means that Diwaniya and Litalia could not be "only slightly older" than the G3 protagonist.

So the education goes something like this:

4 (presumably) years in the academy

5 years of menial training

?? years (prob. 2~4) of advanced training

Looking at this, in all likelihood, full shaper education probably takes 12 years altogether. But then, maybe Alwan got to skip a few years due to his exceptional experience on the field, who knows.

[alhoon]

According to the description in GF5, he is young. So was Greta in GF4 and GF5.

According to his story as told by him and as told by others (his yesmen but also Greta) he's young and after GF3 he more or less joined the Shaper army and rose in ranks. There's also another young Guardian, very young, leading a fort in GF5. Hence I don't think Guardians go to all these "Extra" studies. Probably serving as well as training. Like squires did or a similar place.

I.e. while Shapers may spend years after academy in menial tasks and then advanced training, I think that for Guardians it is academy, service\training (like squires) for a couple of years and then at your 21-22 you are a low-rank Guardian.

 

Alwan during the special circumstances, and having proven his loyalty probably skipped part of that.

 

As for Litalia, she's insane and she has shaped and de-shaped herself. So pinning her age is not possible on appearances and her memory and reliability is low.

 

 

From the into of GF5, the rebellion is at its 10th-11th year. Later we learn that the Unbound are around for about 3-4 years. As such, by the intro and narrative, GF5 should be 11-12 years after the start of GF3 and 10-11 after its end and 3-4 years after GF4 end.

[Hyena of Ice]

I.e. while Shapers may spend years after academy in menial tasks and then advanced training, I think that for Guardians it is academy, service\training (like squires) for a couple of years and then at your 21-22 you are a low-rank Guardian.

 

I think that all three classes spend the same amount of time at the academy, and the introductory dialogue states that Alwan (unlike you) is about to be initiated, so he would already be 21~22 in G3, assuming that students join the academy at age 18. (The fact that he is about to be initiated while you are not probably means that the G3 protagonist is a year younger than he is. Greta is probably the same age or a year younger than the protagonist-- she can't possibly be Alwan's age since she has "received less formal training" than the protagonist) It also seems logical that the first year of schooling would consist purely of studying and bootcamp without even beginning shaping or spellcasting. Agents apparently go through several years of study as well. Honestly, I cannot picture the academy training taking less than 3 years for all three sects, even with the level of intense study they do.

Consider that the minimal training for a guardian consists of 1 year of military basic + intense studying, then on top of that is the training of mental discipline (including 1 month of SERE-- wiki it if you don't know what it is), shaper law, shaper history, learning such skills as the use of living tools, very introductory spellcasting, introductory blacksmithing and leatherworking (mostly just maintenance and repairs), a moderate degree of shaping, various regulations and safety protocols for heavy machinery and toxic environments, military first aid, different battle formations and group tactics (including roleplays, like they do in the military IRL, and a lot of weapons/combat training.

Now, the shaper law, shaper history, military basic, military first-aid, and introductory level mental disciplines would be first-year stuff, as would likely be leatherworking (and sewing obviously). Looking at IRL military, Shaper military basic would likely take an average of 4 months worth of training. That's on top of intense study, which cuts down on available hours, so we're probably talking a full year of military basic, and military first aid would be included in that, as would education of battle formations and military tactics.

Every other subject mentioned (along with more mental and weapons training) would be second year or later.

 

And yes, I also assumed that for Guardians, the menial tasks period would consist of service training, guard patrols at the outskirts of or outside of towns, giant rat hunting, low level bodyguards/security, weapons/armor repair and maybe blacksmithing (esp. at a military camp), secretarial work at a military camp, loading and unloading the wagons at a military camp, things like that, and that this period of education would be reduced by a year or two for Alwan after the events of G3.

 

And, for comparison, I think the education for Agents would be based more on diplomacy, mechanics, spellcasting, obviously, stealth, sharpshooting, wilderness survival (including SERE-- this part of the education, alone would cover a lot of subcategories, such as spelunking, botany, camouflage, scent masking, wound ID, wilderness first aid, skinning, ), shaper regulations, leatherworking and maintenance (part of wilderness survival), sewing, more emphasis on creation tracking/hunting than the other two sects (wilderness survival, again)

Also more emphasis on shaper law and regulations (in comparison, Guardians get very little education in this category as evidenced by a dummied convo with Alwan at the Harmony East Docks-- though that's not saying much (z15eastdockdlg.txt in Program Files x 86 > Geneforge 3 > Scripts if you're interested in reading it. It mostly consists of Alwan whining about no one being present to order him around, taking it out on Greta, ands indirectly asking for reassurance-- you know, so he doesn't look "unmanly" and "weak" or whatever his absurd perception is)

 

Shaper education would be so extensive that they probably have to choose one or two areas to specialize in at the beginning of their second year, such as Shaper mechanics/chemistry/alchemy (vats, purification plants, crystal spirals, things of that nature), Shaper law and regulations, battle mage/shaper, healingcraft and medicine, mineralogy/crystal forging, mineralogy/metallurgy, biochemistry/botany/herbalism/plant & fungi shaping and augmentation, biochemistry/animal/creation shaping and augmentation, or creation veterinarian.

[Hyena of Ice]

GF5 should be 11-12 years after the start of GF3 and 10-11 after its end

 

Yes, but therein lies another problem. The timeline in GF3 is inconsistent as soon as you land on Gull Island. The timeline given from Greenwood to the end of Dhonal Isle is that both Greenwood and Harmony (in their entirety) take place "weeks" after the attack on the school, and Dhonal Isle takes place "months" after the attack (with Lord Rahul learning of the attack on the school and General Greiner going nutso only weeks earlier). However, as soon as you enter Stonespire, the amount of time passed "since the rebellion began" l is merely "weeks", and once you land on The Isle of Spears, the amount of time since the game started is not mentioned at all-- as far as I can recall, anyhow. The change cannot be implying that the rebellion took place on Gull Isle much later than on other Islands, because we learn that Gull Island is where it all began.

 

Speaking of Litalia's unreliability, Greta's story changes as well.

 

Once you hit Dhonal Isle, she claims that she "Chose to stop training to be a Shaper" This is not true, as she tells you at the South End that she resents being kicked out.

In G4, not only does she omit the fact that she was expelled from the school, but she actually claims that she was still training when the school was attacked. However, I think that Jeff did this one intentionally rather than as a plothole, and that Greta is simply lying from Dhonal Isle onward.

 

[alhoon]

Well, if we assume that the academy starts at 16 instead of 18, and that it's 4 years because it includes the necessary brainwashing (which is easier done in younger ages), Alwan would be 19-20 in the start of GF3.

Now if we assume that after the academy, squire-like training along with the stuff you mentioned after the end of the academy, the period of "shaper prospect" as called in GF5, it could take a few years of menial jobs along with training under a full guardian that has 3-4 prospectives. Probably at that time they narrow down their training, focusing more in one area. That could be 3-4 years or so. However, a post-academy guardian-in-training, could see some action. So for Alwan the period was probably cut down and he was serving his "post-academy" training under guardians on the field cause of his actions in GF3.

There he could have been distinguished, progressed to full Guardian within 1-2 years of such service and then... serving as a guardian and rising through the ranks in the 7-8 years that follow till GF4 starts.

[alhoon]

So far, I find Unbound EVERYWHERE in the Dera Reaches. Is there an explanation on how there are so many so far from the Drakon fortress?

Don't tell me please, just tell me "yes and you'll find later" or "no, it's because of the assumed success in the first attack".

 

The shapers from what I've seen have more or less abandoned Dera Reaches to Taygen's camps and inefficiency as he makes and remakes creations. They hold the town, the fortified Eastern zones ... and that is it so far. Everything else is packed with rogues and Unbound.

I even found an Unbound kept in seclusion by Cryo-drayks, feeding him lots of stuff. I killed the Drayks aaaand... the Unbound started running around. He was close the gate to one of the concentration camps for creations that had NOTHING to save them from the Unbound except of bound creations. Even a couple of the Cryodrayks could take that place down.

And the Shapers had the wondrous idea to make a pylon-field outside their city that stops everything except Unbound. So the place is literally crawling with the things. Inside pylons so I can't get everywhere. Thankfully my creations ignore those pylons too.

[Goldengirl]

I don't actually recall if the game does answer that question. I have the impression (which might have just been intuition) that the Dera Reaches weren't considered important enough to be worth the effort to pacify.

[alhoon]

Thanks. I think that's a reasonable answer and it certainly fits the place. Whether it's the only reason or not, it certainly is an important reason.

When Alwan is holding the line literally, sending people to die over easily accessible by sea failed colonies in a desert is a waste. Even Taygen admits his place is low priority.