What do the Avernites stuff their pillows with?

[qella]

We see several pillows throughout the games, even some beds that look like they have mattresses, but there are no birds in Avernum to get feathers from and they can't grow cotton or straw. So what do they use for stuffing?

[Edgwyn]

Mushroom flour?

[Jerakeen]

Nephil hair.

[Goldengirl]

Bat fur.

[Slarzahl]

The Empire might have sent some bedding materials down back in the day. Or maybe a pillow-creation spell was one of the lesser known feats of Erika.

[Randomizer]

Cave moss

 

It can also be brewed to make an ale that will make you forget how lumpy your bed is.

[Jerakeen]

Cave moss

 

It can also be brewed to make an ale that will make you forget how lumpy your bed is.

....also, where it is.

 

...also, where you are.

 

...also, who you are.

 

...also...something else...what were we talking about?

[Dintiradan]

text1 = "You make your way to the counter of this shop, manoeuvring around piles of slender cavewood sticks and crates of arrowheads, glue powder, and feathers. You briefly wonder what Avernum used for arrow feathers before contact was regained with the surface.";

I should finish that scenario one of these days...

[Rugila]

The Empire might have sent some bedding materials down back in the day. Or maybe a pillow-creation spell was one of the lesser known feats of Erika.

 

Perhaps the empire got pissed at a chicken farmer and his chickens and send the whole lot down to Avernum

[Vexivero]

Entrails

[Slarzahl]

Perhaps the empire got pissed at a chicken farmer and his chickens and send the whole lot down to Avernum

There was a BoE scenario about a plague of mad chickens, or something like that, wasn't there?

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

Three of them, Slarty, by Brave Sir Robin.

[Level 1 Hermit]

Well it has to be something plentiful, inexpensive, and relatively comfortable.

 

Grass?

[Aran]

What do the Avernites stuff their pillows with?

 

Aw, I was expecting a really lame pun. (And now I can't stop trying to think of one.)

 

 

[Xaiya]

round pebbles

[Forget it]

Cavewood sawdust. Waste not, want not.

[Goldengirl]

The giant lizards of Avernum are actually more closely related to the dinosaurs of old, and thus, they never changed their feathers for scales.

 

Alternatively, Nephil fur balls.

[Mechalibur]

Followup question, what do Avernites use to make the pillow casings? Are all their fabrics imported from the surface, or have they found some other substitute?

[Randomizer]

Until better conditions between humans and nephilim, captured and killed nephils were shaved and their hairs were made into thread for sewing and fabrics. Nephils did the same with humans, but got less useful hair, so humans were also the source of weird meat.

[Edgwyn]

Lizard skin for the poor, Slith skin for the rich until the peace with the Sliths.

[Triumph]

After hydras were retconned out of existence, maybe hellhounds provide furry hides?

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

I'm still mad about that. The hydra nest was my favorite part of E2.

[Goldengirl]

Probably all the demon hides from Linda's experiments.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

I don't think I'd want to sleep on a demonic pillow.

[Slarzahl]

I mean, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of clothing, so they figured something out. That something might be "lots of cave cow leather" but so it goes.

[Lilith]

That something might be "lots of cave cow leather" but so it goes.

 

let's be fair here, there's also lizard leather

[Alorael at Large]

Also a fair amount of mushroom leather.

 

—Alorael, who expects that there's bat leather in the mix too. Giant rats on occasion. Smaller rats on more occasions.

[Forget it]

The fabrics are made of skribbane fiber. Skemp they call it. Also useful for oils and pain relievers.

[Zaego]

I'm still mad about that. The hydra nest was my favorite part of E2.

Me too. Inwardly I still think of the hellhounds as hydras and dismiss the hellhounds as just a graphical glitch on my screen. :3

 

I mean, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of clothing, so they figured something out. That something might be "lots of cave cow leather" but so it goes.

I'd imagine that at least some of the clothing would be made of spider silk (infact, now that I think about it, there are actually items called Spidersilk tunic,etc. with varying effects). Also, there might be clothiers who have specialized in weaving mushroom into rough strings which they could use as fabrics. Finally, the weird cavern plants could be propably used in a similar manner, in addition to all of the methods described that feature giant lizard leather, etc.

[qella]

Well now that we're discussing the entire textile industry, what do they use to dye their clothes? They're awfully colourful, especially the mages.

[Goldengirl]

Lichens and mosses. The blood of the slain. Magical bombardment. You know, the usual.

[Edgwyn]

Maybe in the time before the assassination of Hawthorne the empire sent down loads of robes, cloaks, pants and tunics. Of course that would have then stopped.

[Hyena of Ice]

There are plenty of possibilities. I have the book by Lone Pine "Native Plants of the Pacific Northwest Coast"-- an all-time favorite since the 80's or 90's when it was released. In addition to native plant information, it includes info on what the First Nations of SW BC, Vancouver Island, and northernmost Washington State used them for. The book is likely to be available in book stores from Alaska down to California, including British Columbia (barring that, probably available at Amazon) It's a good reference for inspiration on what characters in a tribal fantasy setting would use plants for. Common pillow stuffings in the Pacific states include cottonwood seed fluffs (duh-- I have a ziplock freezerbag full of it for bird nesting-- at the right time of year it's so prevalent near the rivers that you can just scoop it up by the handfull) Animal fur was used further inland, I believe-- mountain goats being the primary source, though I would imagine that coyotes shed fur by the clump-full as well.

 

I think probably that a lot of cloth was sent down by the Empire. The item description in the original first trilogy might specify where the cloth comes from.

*Loads up A1*

The description for tunics state that cloth is laboriously made from the fluffs of a reed magically augmented to survive in the subterranean darkness.

 

The 40 gp cloth is probably supposed to be silk or brocade, so that may well be from the surface unless there is a processing method or special strain of reed that can render a silk-like textile-- or perhaps the steep price is solely due to the dyes used.

[Goldengirl]

Spidersilk is another option. The Tower of Magi specifically deals with the GIFTS later on (second trilogy?) solely for the purpose of getting silk from them. Of course, they aren't the only spiders in the game.

[Vanceros]

Can't cow skin count,

 

nah jk

 

I think they ransacked everything in both Garzhard's Rakshahas homes

[Hyena of Ice]

Spidersilk is much, MUCH too expensive for pillow stuffing, though there is an Aranea Silk Tunic in A4. The only game I know of where the GIFTS deal peacefully with the Tower of Magi is A3 (though I haven't played A5 yet)

 

Again, the reed thing is in the canon-- the tunics in A1 state that clothing in Avernum is made painstakingly from a magically augmented reed-- though it's possible he meant "cattail", or both.

 

Oh, on a related note, if Jeff is reading this, please, please, PLEASE bring back the item descriptions for mundane items! It adds such wonderful flavor to the games! It's so incredibly annoying that bolts of cloth, blankets, books, etc. lack any descriptions like they did in the first trilogy and to a much lesser extent the Geneforge games.

 

BTW, for context, common reeds, though not land-use efficient (don't get much bang for your buck as far as sq. feet of land use), do produce feathery inflorescences. Reeds (and cattails, if Jeff either made a mistake and meant cattail instead of reed, or meant BOTH cattail and reed) make the most sense for a magically augmented textile plant. Aside from requiring wetland conditions (cattails being a tad pickier than reeds as far as water levels and brackishness), neither are picky about conditions beyond that-- they are quick-growing and weedy, they're not spiked like thistles, and they don't require years of growth like cottonwood and willow. (note I didn't include the less weedy trees on the list, such as kapok) Bonus: reeds make good and plentiful sources for burlap, rope, thatching, and weaving material.

 

As for other textiles (but not pillow and quilt stuffing), wolf fur makes a good wool substitute, and they are widely domesticated-- at least in A6, anyway.

[Aran]

What do the Avernites stuff their pillows with?

 

Aw, I was expecting a really lame pun. (And now I can't stop trying to think of one.)

 

Deep Down.

 

There. Now I can finally leave it alone.

 

[Slarzahl]

Deep Down.

Ahh... so the pillows are the ballot boxes, and they are being retroactively and remorsefully stuffed with votes for Alcritas?

[Hyena of Ice]

Oh, wait, I forgot that "reed" is a synonym for cattail...

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

It is not a synonym for cattail. Cattails are a TYPE of reed (seemingly not a true one though), and they are also edible, although if the Avernites are using cattails I would bet the GMO nature of Avernite flora renders them even more disgusting than the mushrooms, judging by the lack of descriptions of people eating them.

[Thaluikhain]

Interesting question, the logistics of living underground have long interested me. Though, you really need lots of magic or avoiding asking certain questions to make it work.

 

Given that vegetation exists underground, though, cave cotton makes as much sense as cave wood. Likewise, there are some mosses IRL (above ground though) that, until recently, got used for all sorts of things.

 

But yeah, explaining all this stuff really helps the worldbuilding, IMHO, much more than the politics and a dozen different types of humanoids. Loved the item descriptions in E3.

[Hyena of Ice]

No, Cave cotton makes little sense. Cavewood was difficult enough to breed, and I don't know what species it was modified from (members of Rosaceae seem most likely-- Rosaceae includes stonefruits *plums, peaches, cherries, almonds, apricots* pomes *apples, pears, quinces, medlars, loquats, rowan, serviceberry, hawthorn*, rowan, hawthorn, serviceberry, cotoneaster, firethorn, toyon, photinia, uʻulei)

It may also be something in Moraceae-- some genuses have twisted, gnarled growth habits like the Cavewood (namely fig and Osage Orange)

 

Cotton, however, is a finicky plant.

[Hyena of Ice]

BTW, I apologize if I mentioned it already, but for those interested in said logistics and worldbuilding like Thaluikhain, I would recommend the book "Plants of the Pacific Northwest Coast" by Lone Pine publishing. It is a field guide to Cascadian plants (Canadian term for the Pacific Northwest west of the Cascades, stretching from the SWmost corner of the Alaskan mainland all the way down to mid Oregon) This book mentions a lot of the uses the Cascadian Amerindians of the Canadian part of this climate zone (southwesternmost BC mainland, Queen Charlotte Island, and Vancouver Island) used various plants for. It has long been the favorite field guide book for hikers and horticulturists around here.

You will need to combine this with compiled data on plant families (you can gather it into a worddoc from data gleaned from Wikispecies)

[Callie]

I vote for whatever the reptilian denizens of Avernum line their nests with. There could even be adventuring pillower merchants!

[Zaego]

What about Vahnatai's magic? They've lived in the caverns for centuries and millenia, so I'd imagine that they'd propably have some kind of magically altered fungal species or moss to be able to use said plant species as pillow stuffings (if they use pillows in their slender, weird beds in the first place). Since the caverns in Kingdom of Avernum's area shows visible signs of Vahnatai having at least visited these caverns during some unspecified time in the near history, could it be propable that they brought these moss- or fungal species up with them, intentionally or maybe even as unintended entrants? Maybe these (un)intentionally planted species are used by avernumian settlers to their own purposes?

[Hyena of Ice]

so I'd imagine that they'd propably have some kind of magically altered fungal species or moss to be able to use said plant species as pillow stuffings (if they use pillows in their slender, weird beds in the first place).

 

Their beds don't have anything that look like pillows on them. They appear to be more like a sort of hammock made from interwoven fibers. I don't know if they bother to magically alter the plants that much or not. There are probably enough usable fibrous lichens for them to manufacture what they need.

The hammock could likely be adjusted so that the head of the bed is raised.

 

Since the caverns in Kingdom of Avernum's area shows visible signs of Vahnatai having at least visited these caverns during some unspecified time in the near history

Not all of them. There are plenty of "ancient" ruins in A5.

 

Maybe these (un)intentionally planted species are used by avernumian settlers to their own purposes?

Depends on which species you speak of. I would imagine that if such data exists in the series, that it would be found in the original A2, but I haven't gotten the original 1st Avernum trilogy ust yet (thus have only played the demo, and that was some time ago)

 

In addition to plant fibers, I should remind everyone not to forget about the various uses for sinew (tendon) by humans in the past. It was, for instance, the most commonly used material to bind spear or arrowheads to their shaft. Sinew is rubbery when fresh, but if specially prepared correctly, it can become either like cord or like rawhide.

[Thaluikhain]

Oh, there's a point, how do they manage their flora when not active? They'd not want some noxious weed ruin all their stuff in the meantime.

[Zaego]

Their beds don't have anything that look like pillows on them. They appear to be more like a sort of hammock made from interwoven fibers. I don't know if they bother to magically alter the plants that much or not. There are probably enough usable fibrous lichens for them to manufacture what they need.

The hammock could likely be adjusted so that the head of the bed is raised.

 

That's a fair enough point, I didn't remember that. Hmmh. Now we'll have to check if there are any pillows at all in the Vahnatai lands. I'm almost certain that the meditation chambers in Egli have pillows in them for sitting purposes. It could be that the Vahnatai use the natural fibrous lichens for these.

... (some time later). I got curious, actually, and I went to check. (For the sake of clarification, I fired up the new Remake Avernum 2.) In Olgai, most bedrooms do display the usage of pillows. My time is running short and I couldn't check the other cities quite yet, but I'd imagine that the Vahnatai do use pillows.

 

In addition to plant fibers, I should remind everyone not to forget about the various uses for sinew (tendon) by humans in the past. It was, for instance, the most commonly used material to bind spear or arrowheads to their shaft. Sinew is rubbery when fresh, but if specially prepared correctly, it can become either like cord or like rawhide.

 

Well that's an interesting thing to learn, I didn't know that, actually. Very interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

 

---

 

Oh, there's a point, how do they manage their flora when not active? They'd not want some noxious weed ruin all their stuff in the meantime.

 

In Olgai, there is a Vahnatai merchant called Riditas who reveals that the preserved mushrooms in stone jars are expected to last for at least three centuries. If this kind of craftsmanship is practiced in other Vahnatai cities, (which seems quite likely, considering the need for supplies for Vahnatai warriors who wake before others to awake entire colonies from Resting) then that implies that the Vahnatai are well prepared for lasting extended periods of time after Resting without fresh food, as their farming culture is re-awakened and the fields are cleansed of noxious weeds.

 

Also, I'd imagine that even if the Vahnatai did have enhanced strains of fungi that lasted against weeds and undesired flora, the hostile creatures such as the hydras and chitratches might still pose a problem to the crops. Thus the best course of action should be to simply abandon the crops before Resting and reclaim them afterwards. Well, that's just my humble opinion, anyway.

[Alorael at Large]

Actually, given how inhospitable the caves are as an environment, getting anything at all to grow is a minor miracle. I doubt there are many weeds to worry about.

 

—Alorael, who thinks it's more likely that someone, somewhere, would find a use for any weeds. As food, as material, as decoration, something. If all else fails, the thing is clearly so uselessly dangerous that it becomes useful as a weapon.

[Thaluikhain]

Actually, given how inhospitable the caves are as an environment, getting anything at all to grow is a minor miracle. I doubt there are many weeds to worry about.

 

There's a zillion and one large unfriendly creatures running around quite happily, though, it can't be that inhospitable. Some of them are plants, IIRC, so there should be less hostile, but still unwanted plants around.

 

—Alorael, who thinks it's more likely that someone, somewhere, would find a use for any weeds. As food, as material, as decoration, something. If all else fails, the thing is clearly so uselessly dangerous that it becomes useful as a weapon.

 

Sure, "weed" is a matter of opinion, if nothing else it'd burn. But if it's taking over your farmland to the exclusion of the plants you want to grow, it's a problem.