Do Casters Need Combat Skills?

[Laertes]

In Crystal Souls, is it worth building up str/dex melee/range for your casters? Or is it better to just focus on magic to the exclusion of all else?

 

My current game has two level 20 casters, one priest and one mage. I've just been raising their intelligence and endurance, and putting almost all their skill points in magic related things. Should I keep doing this, or is it worthwhile trying to give them a little bit of archery skill or some melee ability?

 

If it matters, my other two characters are a pure melee tank, and an archer with most of the party's tool use.

[Lilith]

Strength and Dex are basically worthless for a caster, but the bottom-level weapon skills (Melee, Pole, Bows, Thrown) can be useful for two reasons:

 

1) Melee and Pole let you raise Hardiness, which is a good defensive skill for anybody

2) Get 15 points total across all your basic weapon skills and you can use Adrenaline Rush, a very useful battle discipline that only becomes more useful in the hands of a caster. Your mage and priest both using 3 AoE damage spells in a turn can end a fight before it begins.

 

You don't have to buy up all of those weapon skills with skill points, though. There are trainers who will raise your weapon skills in exchange for cash.

[Laertes]

Strength and Dex are basically worthless for a caster, but the bottom-level weapon skills (Melee, Pole, Bows, Thrown) can be useful for two reasons:

 

1) Melee and Pole let you raise Hardiness, which is a good defensive skill for anybody

2) Get 15 points total across all your basic weapon skills and you can use Adrenaline Rush, a very useful battle discipline that only becomes more useful in the hands of a caster. Your mage and priest both using 3 AoE damage spells in a turn can end a fight before it begins.

 

You don't have to buy up all of those weapon skills with skill points, though. There are trainers who will raise your weapon skills in exchange for cash.

 

Thanks for the tip. I hadn't given hardiness to anyone other than my tank. Is there an ideal number of hardiness for a caster?

 

Without raising str/dex, will those attack skills actually be able to do anything though? Or is it mostly just to aim for Adrenaline Rush for spell use, and to unlock some hardiness? My primary concern is that my casters can't last long on their own if they're separated from the party, such as with solo missions or with enemies that teleport party members to separate areas. Enemy AoE spells that hit my whole party also devastate the casters, though I can usually mass heal before they die. And if I'm trying to conserve mana when facing weaker foes, my casters don't have much to do besides fire their bows and miss most of the time.

[Randomizer]

Hardiness will increase your armor and some resistances.

Parry will allow you a chance not to take damage from single target attacks.

Resistance will increase resistances to spell damages.

Strength is mostly if you do melee attacks and isn't useful.

Dexterity will help with evasion to attacks, but it takes a lot to be useful.

[Lilith]

Thanks for the tip. I hadn't given hardiness to anyone other than my tank. Is there an ideal number of hardiness for a caster?

 

All of it. Aim for 10 hardiness bought with skill points, plus 2 bought with cash from a trainer, plus 2 acquired from special encounters during the game. Seriously, it's just a fantastic skill.

 

Without raising str/dex, will those attack skills actually be able to do anything though? Or is it mostly just to aim for Adrenaline Rush for spell use, and to unlock some hardiness?

 

The latter. You shouldn't actually be using weapons, just buying up the skills.

 

My primary concern is that my casters can't last long on their own if they're separated from the party, such as with solo missions or with enemies that teleport party members to separate areas. Enemy AoE spells that hit my whole party also devastate the casters, though I can usually mass heal before they die.

 

Why are your casters more vulnerable than your frontliners in the first place? They'll gain enough Strength just from automatic levelup gains that by level 20 they should be able to wear about as much gear as a fighter. They don't have to worry about doing damage with their melee weapons, so they can use a shield (unlike most melee fighters), as well as a defensive weapon like the Shielding Knife. Buy up a few levels of the Swordmage trait for your mage and you don't have to worry about encumbrance keeping them from casting spells, either. The only thing melee fighters really have over casters is Parry, which is nice but only relevant to physical attacks.

 

And if I'm trying to conserve mana when facing weaker foes, my casters don't have much to do besides fire their bows and miss most of the time.

 

Don't try so hard to conserve spell points. Bolt of Fire costs all of 1 point to cast: by level 20 that's a totally meaningless cost. As far as priests go, Smite, War Blessing and Protection are hardly ruinously expensive either.

[Callie]

Honestly, I don't bother to conserve mana at all and just use the imdrained cheat. It's not any different from running back into town, and it saves a lot of time.

[Laertes]

Why are your casters more vulnerable than your frontliners in the first place? They'll gain enough Strength just from automatic levelup gains that by level 20 they should be able to wear about as much gear as a fighter. They don't have to worry about doing damage with their melee weapons, so they can use a shield (unlike most melee fighters), as well as a defensive weapon like the Shielding Knife. Buy up a few levels of the Swordmage trait for your mage and you don't have to worry about encumbrance keeping them from casting spells, either. The only thing melee fighters really have over casters is Parry, which is nice but only relevant to physical attacks.

 

The tank has lots of hardiness and parry. The archer has high dex and gymnastics. They can both avoid at least some of the damage coming their way. The casters don't have any defensive skills, so pretty much everything hits them. In combat I've been careful to keep the tank and archer between the casters and the enemies, as much as possible.

 

What does the "encumbers mages" descriptor on items mean though? Does it not matter if your mage can carry the weight?

[Lilith]

The tank has lots of hardiness and parry. The archer has high dex and gymnastics. They can both avoid at least some of the damage coming their way. The casters don't have any defensive skills, so pretty much everything hits them. In combat I've been careful to keep the tank and archer between the casters and the enemies, as much as possible.

 

Yeah, it sounds like the problem is you've been neglecting defensive skills on them. Casters should generally aim to max out both Hardiness and Resistance by level 30, although that'll be hard to do if you're level 20 and haven't invested in either of those yet.

 

What does the "encumbers mages" descriptor on items mean though? Does it not matter if your mage can carry the weight?

 

The thing to look at is hit penalties -- notice how items that encumber mages also have a penalty like "-5% to hit chance" or "-20% to hit chance" listed. If the sum of all hit penalties exceeds a certain limit, your character won't be able to cast mage spells (and only mage spells: priests aren't affected by this). The limit is 5%, plus 10% for every rank of Swordmage you've got. 3 ranks of Swordmage is enough for a breastplate and shield, which are the main pieces of encumbering armour worth wearing for a mage.

[Jerakeen]

It's not about carrying the weight as regards mages - the term "encumbered" is a bit confusing, since it's also used for when you are carrying too much weight and lose AP as a result, but this is different.

 

Any piece of armor or gear that comes with a to-hit penalty (5%, 10%, whatever) counts towards total mage encumbrance, regardless of weight. An encumbered mage is unable to cast spells. The base threshold is 5%, which is like a bronze helmet or a pair of heavy boots, not much. Anything over that and the mage is useless. You can raise the threshold by choosing the Swordmage trait, which adds 10% per rank, allowing you to equip more/better armor, even shields if you raise it high enough.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Jerakeen
Sniped!

[Laertes]

Yeah, it sounds like the problem is you've been neglecting defensive skills on them. Casters should generally aim to max out both Hardiness and Resistance by level 30, although that'll be hard to do if you're level 20 and haven't invested in either of those yet.

 

 

 

The thing to look at is hit penalties -- notice how items that encumber mages also have a penalty like "-5% to hit chance" or "-20% to hit chance" listed. If the sum of all hit penalties exceeds a certain limit, your character won't be able to cast mage spells (and only mage spells: priests aren't affected by this). The limit is 5%, plus 10% for every rank of Swordmage you've got. 3 ranks of Swordmage is enough for a breastplate and shield, which are the main pieces of encumbering armour worth wearing for a mage.

 

Ah, good to know. I have been giving them some resistance, but that's basically their only defense. What's the maximum hardiness?

 

At this point, since they already have plenty of spell casting, should I basically just be giving them melee and hardiness and more resistance every level until the cap?

[Lilith]

Ah, good to know. I have been giving them some resistance, but that's basically their only defense. What's the maximum hardiness?

 

As I said earlier:

 

10 hardiness bought with skill points, plus 2 bought with cash from a trainer, plus 2 acquired from special encounters during the game.

 

So that adds up to a total of 14 (plus any bonuses from equipment). Note that if you want to get to 14, you have to buy 10 points with skill points before getting the extra Hardiness from other sources.

 

At this point, since they already have plenty of spell casting, should I basically just be giving them melee and hardiness and more resistance every level until the cap?

 

Probably. It's kind of a waste to raise your basic spellcasting skills above 16, since that's all you need to cast every spell and the benefits the skill provides to the power of your spells are pretty marginal.

[TriRodent]

Honestly, I don't bother to conserve mana at all and just use the imdrained cheat. It's not any different from running back into town, and it saves a lot of time.

 

That's exactly what I do. In a dungeon I'll take my party back to the front door & do the Imdrained (assuming that there hasn't been a rockfall or something else forcing me to go through the dungeon - then I'll use energy potions/elixirs as if I couldn't go back to town). My house rules say that unless I'm DEEP in Empire territory (where a wandering guard party is a distinct possibility or on a long one way trip such as going down the river to meet the Vahanati) I'd have been able to reach a town to recharge & then go back. Imdrained saves a lot of time just walking back & forth. Outdoors after a fight, if the party needs recharging I'll do it there too going on the assumption (again not deep in E territory or on the Dark Journey) that my guys could have found a quiet spot to hole up, grab a quick meal/nap & then get back on the glory road.

 

As to the original question, I do give my casters levels in melee/pole (or more likely buy training for them once money isn't critically short). However it is mainly, as has been said, to give them access to hardiness & also build towards the adrenaline rush discipline. Also I tend to give them a point or two of the sword mage trait. This gives them a chance to wear some decent armor (runed plate doesn't arrive until later & even then there's only one of those) & one of the many great shields.

[Lilith]

As to the original question, I do give my casters levels in melee/pole (or more likely buy training for them once money isn't critically short). However it is mainly, as has been said, to give them access to hardiness & also build towards the adrenaline rush discipline. Also I tend to give them a point or two of the sword mage trait. This gives them a chance to wear some decent armor (runed plate doesn't arrive until later & even then there's only one of those) & one of the many great shields.

 

I actually find the Runed Plate to be more useful on a fighter than a spellcaster anyway. The encumbrance from other armour types can be worked around, and that +20% mental resistance can make a big difference for characters who need it,

[Laertes]

Probably. It's kind of a waste to raise your basic spellcasting skills above 16, since that's all you need to cast every spell and the benefits the skill provides to the power of your spells are pretty marginal.

 

Hm, too bad there's no way to raise bows and hardiness, instead of melee and hardiness. It'd be nice to hang back behind the tank and take ranged shots.

[GolfHacker]

In Crystal Souls, is it worth building up str/dex melee/range for your casters? Or is it better to just focus on magic to the exclusion of all else?

 

My current game has two level 20 casters, one priest and one mage. I've just been raising their intelligence and endurance, and putting almost all their skill points in magic related things. Should I keep doing this, or is it worthwhile trying to give them a little bit of archery skill or some melee ability?

 

One thing I've discovered while playing that nobody else has mentioned yet is that eventually you're going to run into enemies that apply a "nullity" effect to you, which means your characters can't use disciplines and your spell casters can't cast spells. My mage and priest had been focusing on their spell casting abilities to the exclusion of all else, and when I ran into that effect, those 2 characters became suddenly useless in a fight. None of the potions, elixirs, or scrolls seem to remove the nullity effect. Even if they have some spell scrolls/wands in their inventory, those don't seem to be very effective (not as effective as spells). I don't remember seeing this nullity effect in the first Avernum game (Escape from the Pit), so it must be new to episode 2. So I wasn't prepared for it. I wish I had known, because I would have made sure the spell-casters had some kind of decent self-defense skills to fallback on.

 

At this point, I'm too far into the game to start over with new character builds (all my characters are level 32). And I'm a bit of a purist, so I'm not willing to use the character editor yet. To workaround it, I've done 2 things: 1) gotten combat training for them where I can (some trainers won't train me because the tank in my party is too skilled, and they say they have nothing they can teach me), and 2) stocked up on invulnerability potions and wands/scrolls for my spell-casters so they can survive a fight and at least contribute a little bit of support to my other characters.

[GolfHacker]

Strength and Dex are basically worthless for a caster, but the bottom-level weapon skills (Melee, Pole, Bows, Thrown) can be useful for two reasons:

 

1) Melee and Pole let you raise Hardiness, which is a good defensive skill for anybody

2) Get 15 points total across all your basic weapon skills and you can use Adrenaline Rush, a very useful battle discipline that only becomes more useful in the hands of a caster. Your mage and priest both using 3 AoE damage spells in a turn can end a fight before it begins.

 

That strategy never occurred to me! Pure awesomeness! Eventually I'll replay this game, and when I do, I'm definitely trying that!

 

When you say "all basic weapon skills", which do you mean? My tank only has sword skills and high strength, and only a few points in thrown weapons (no bows). I'm curious which skills/attributes are absolutely necessary to unlock Adrenaline Rush...

[TriRodent]

That strategy never occurred to me! Pure awesomeness! Eventually I'll replay this game, and when I do, I'm definitely trying that!

 

When you say "all basic weapon skills", which do you mean? My tank only has sword skills and high strength, and only a few points in thrown weapons (no bows). I'm curious which skills/attributes are absolutely necessary to unlock Adrenaline Rush...

 

Only the 4 skills on the bottom count towards the battle discipline total - Melee, Pole, Bows & Thrown. You need a total of 15 between the 4 of them (either through training or equipped items) to get Adrenaline Rush

[Slawbug]

Nullity is new, and definitely dangerous. However, it's not really worth building around. Investing 25% of your stat and skill points into a weapon attack is just going to give you a very weak weapon attack; you're better off investing in magic skills for your magic-users, and playing around nullity. There are a very limited number of enemies that can inflict it, and (especially on Normal) you can just make them priorities to take out, or position your magic-users away from them where they are less likely to be targeted. Even with 4 magic users, just making sure they aren't clumped together when you fight e.g. vampires is not hard to do and prevents a nullity attack from being a disaster.

[GolfHacker]

Ah, good to know. Thanks, guys!

 

(I'm still fairly new to these games, and still figuring out all the mechanics. I love the depth of strategy, though, and the stories are great.)

[Randomizer]

Wand of the Inferno works well through out the game. Powerlash scroll and corruption baton work somewhat. With enough healing elixirs you can usually survive. But I spread out the party because Jeff really likes Nullity.

[Lilith]

One thing I've discovered while playing that nobody else has mentioned yet is that eventually you're going to run into enemies that apply a "nullity" effect to you, which means your characters can't use disciplines and your spell casters can't cast spells. My mage and priest had been focusing on their spell casting abilities to the exclusion of all else, and when I ran into that effect, those 2 characters became suddenly useless in a fight. None of the potions, elixirs, or scrolls seem to remove the nullity effect. Even if they have some spell scrolls/wands in their inventory, those don't seem to be very effective (not as effective as spells). I don't remember seeing this nullity effect in the first Avernum game (Escape from the Pit), so it must be new to episode 2. So I wasn't prepared for it. I wish I had known, because I would have made sure the spell-casters had some kind of decent self-defense skills to fallback on.

 

Nullity counts as a mental effect, so only Unshackle Mind and Ritual of Sanctification can remove it. Nullity also prevents the use of battle disciplines, so it's not harmless to fighters either, although it's less completely ruinous. The best solution is to spread out your party so that your priest is less likely to be hit with it.

[Laertes]

How useful is the magic skill that increases your damage? I'm torn between spending all those points for melee/hardiness (and getting adrenaline rush in the process) or boosting their magic damage a lot.

 

Alternatively, giving melee/hardiness to my priest so they can survive more and be around to heal/resurrect as necessary, while doubling down on magic damage with the mage. What do you think?

[Lilith]

How useful is the magic skill that increases your damage? I'm torn between spending all those points for melee/hardiness (and getting adrenaline rush in the process) or boosting their magic damage a lot.

 

Spellcraft? It's not bad, and unlocks Resistance (which is almost as good as Hardiness, especially for non-melee characters). On the other hand, maxing it out is only a 20% boost to your spellcasting effectiveness, so there's an argument to be made for getting Adrenaline Rush earlier instead, especially if you've already found some weapon-skill-boosting equipment to help you on the way to that goal.

[Slawbug]

Yeah. I think I've pretty much concluded that it makes more sense to push Spellcraft to 7, then buy the last three points, rather than pushing to 10 and buying to 13. If nothing else those points can go in Luck, which is like half a point of Spellcraft plus a defense boost and possibly other unknown boosts.