A2:CS - First look at balance updates

[Slawbug]

I've only just started playing, but it seems clear that while the vast majority of stats, spells, abilities, and items are similar to A:EftP's, there are a few shifts.

 

Dual Wielding - The penalty is now -35% to-hit and to damage rather than -20%. This is good. Dual wielding should still be usable early (if you push your accuracy up) and very strong in the late game. Remember, those penalties mean that +X% to damage bonuses have a bigger impact on dual wielders.

 

Spears - Now do more damage than swords and have a chance to crit. Haven't looked at items later in the game yet, but this is very promising, and should make spears viable.

 

Thrown Weapons - Have picked up some nifty ancillary effects. Still not sure they're worth the supply problems, especially if gold is still super useful for trainers and spells.

 

Traits - These look identical except for the new stat requirements, which are (1) very small, and (2) always in stats that go with the traits anyway. Negotiator and Sage Lore are presumably the most valuable by a mile, again?

 

Races - Humans do seem like the obvious long-term value. Their bonus traits come at levels 2, 6, 10, and so on. That means if the soft cap is around level 30 again, humans will eventually get 7-8 bonus traits. Obviously, at high level, that's probably better than the Nephil and Slith bonuses, which I'd value as worth about 3 - 3.5 traits... and that means humans catch up by level 10-14; not very long at all. The demihumans can obviously get slightly higher max damage bonuses for their favored weapon types, but that isn't relevant late game either -- as any warrior will have a high damage bonus %, diminishing the impact of that +10%.

 

Spells - Capture Soul, while presumably not as abusable as in Exile, should offer some neat possibilities. Otherwise the spells look nearly the same as the first game. Maybe there are some cost or damage tweaks that aren't obvious (or actual invisible changes)? If there aren't, then spells still look like probably the strongest offense available (especially with dual wielding being mildly weaker).

 

Adrenaline Rush - Depending on the availability of trainers and item bonuses, this could be easy for casters to reach -- or not. Adrenaline Rush is still a great deal better than all other battle disciplines, in most situations, which is too bad, as that really limits their use.

 

Time to go look for trainers and items...

[Randomizer]

Then there is the Slartifcation of Avernum using Remix tweaks:

 

Pole weapons now have a significant chance of cleaving a second target adjacent to the first target. If you are already surrounded as a melee fighter, this increases your attacks like dual wielding does for swords.

 

Shields now give additional parry with the trade off that you have a lower chance to hit. Mages are at a severe disadvantage until the get Swordmage trait and/or use items that increase to hit chances to offset the penalty.

 

 

Then there are the removal of previous game exploits:

 

Most weapons no longer have a to hit bonus to offset armor penalties except wave blades. Instead they usually get an improvement of critical hit chance (+50% damage).

 

There was a cave quake since the last game so boats can no longer reach a certain town and you have to walk it.

 

 

New:

 

Vahnatai Lore is equal to one level of Arcane Lore for learning spells and you can get up to 4 levels.

[Slawbug]

Looking through Randomizer's atlas, there are just as many points in weapon skills as before. They come a little later on, it looks like, but it should still be realistic for all spellcasters to reach Adrenaline Rush if you push that training.

 

Also... the weird Dex-based Earthquake of Avadon's Shaman is back! The priest spell Move Mountains does physical damage, but it also gets boosted by DEXTERITY rather than Intelligence. (It may also get boosted by +% missle damage bonuses, I'm not sure.) Anyway, this may not be a great build focus since the spell costs 20, which is tough if you aren't pumping Int, and doesn't have the best AoE. But you only need 6 Priest Spells to access it, which makes it a very, very nice bonus option for ranged attackers.

 

...OTOH, healing spells still don't get boosted by Intelligence, so maybe a Dex priest build is an option? Probably there would be too many mana problems, but if this isn't your primary healer, it might work...

 

The rest of the spells still look very viable, although a few subtle changes mean that mages are definitely preferable as offensive spellcasters compared to priests. Mages get three high-damage cone spells, one of which, Lightning Spray, is very economical and also available once you hop back to Avernum proper. Priests don't lack in damage so much as targeting; they only have one spell with effective AoE targeting, Divine Fire; it costs 30 sp and does 5/6 the damage of its mage counterpart, Fireblast. (Actually, not sure about Divine Retribution's range; if you can wait for it, that one might still be potent, and it keeps pace with Arcane Blow for its damage at least through level 2.) Mages also have the only access to acid damage and a much better ice spell.

 

 

Average damage per damage die (before % bonuses/penalties)

 

2.00 - Dagger, Bow

2.50 - Bow of Dark Rot, Bow of Storms (50% chance to do 150% damage, chance of ancillary effects)

3.00 - Possessed Bow (50% chance to double damage)

2.50 - Shortsword, Longbow

2.88 - Broadsword (15% chance to double damage)

3.13 - Javelin (50% chance to do 150% damage, chance of ancillary effects)

2.50 - Razordisk (50% chance to cleave at 1-4)

2.50 - Chaotic Halberd (50% chance to cleave at 1-5)

3.75 - Spear (25% chance to double damage)

3.75 - Halberd (25% chance to double damage, 40% chance to cleave at 1-4)

4.00 - Flaming Sword (1-4 physical, 1-2 flaming... STILL AMAZING)

 

Counting cleaves as always available:

3.75 - Razordisk

4.00 - Chaotic Halberd

4.75 - Halberd

 

Dual-wielding estimates:

3.89 - Early, 2 broadswords, full 35% eff. penalty

4.37 - 2 broadswords, more realistic 25% eff. penalty

4.61 - Late game, 2 broadswords, 20% eff. penalty

5.52 - Flaming sword + broadsword, 20% eff. penalty

6.88 - As above but if flaming damage still procs on both weapons

 

As you can see, dual wielding w/flaming sword beats the pants off poles... and that's before you consider that fire resistance is a lot rarer than armor is.

Pole weapons are nearly as good as dual wielding otherwise, though they trail off a bit late game.

 

Missile weapons are really not as effective, but I guess that's the trade-off for their lovely range.

Still, I dunno, spending most of the game at 2.50 compared to 3.75 or higher for close range...

 

Spells (at level 2):

 

ST:

1.50 - Spray Acid (plus acid, 30% cleave)

2.00 - Bolt of Fire (30% cleave)

2.40 - Smite

 

Nearby:

2.50 - Move Mountains (DEX)

3.50 - Divine Retribution (slows)

 

AoE:

2.30 - Icy Rain

3.00 - Divine Fire

 

Cone:

2.00 - Call the Storm (plus stuff)

3.00 - Lightning Spray

3.50 - Arcane Blow (war curse)

3.60 - Fireblast

 

Sooooo, weapons don't even outdamage spells by very much when we're talking about a single target. With a group of enemies, spells remain so much better than weapons...

 

It's looking like, especially with Cloaks, the clear winner is 1 dual wielder, 1 primary priest, 2 primary mages.

[Lilith]

Do those estimates for dual-wielding assume that only the damage penalty matters and the to-hit penalty is irrelevant because you're hitting at 95% anyway? Because if it's anything like A:EftP, on Torment there'll be a big chunk of the midgame where that's not true, so dual-wielding won't pull ahead of polearms until later.

[Randomizer]

There is a weight limit on the off hand weapon so you can't do dual broadswords or even the 8 pound named weapons. The better off hand weapons are discipline blade and some of the rapiers.

 

Combat Move Mountains spell has a low to hit near the beginning of the game, but if you are playing a singleton or later in the game it makes an effective undead attack AoE for priests until they get Divine Fire.

 

Divine Retribution is nice not for the damage, but the bonus effect at higher levels to slow monsters that seems to be more effective than a mages Slow.

[Jukai]

Humans are immensely overpowered compared to the Sliths and Kittis. That was not well thought out.

[Hobo Elf]

Humans are immensely overpowered compared to the Sliths and Kittis. That was not well thought out.

 

Yes, I found quite a bit of a problem with the animal racials. Unless you use spears with the Lizards or missile weapons with the Cats you are completely missing out on their racial. And that's disregarding that the bonus human traits will eclipse whatever bonuses the animals get on top of being completely up to the player what bonuses they wish to take to help build their characters. Humans are just so much more flexible that it's kinda pointless to take the other races other than for the flavor.

[Slawbug]

Ooh, thanks for those points Lilith and Randomizer.

 

If it's anything like A:EFTP, I'm inclined to say that the to-hit penalty *might* matter on Torment, but can be avoided through intelligent stat, skill, equipment and especially trait allocation. Humans get so many traits that you can load up on Improved Strength and the like for a good number of +5% hit increases.

[Jukai]

Yes, I found quite a bit of a problem with the animal racials. Unless you use spears with the Lizards or missile weapons with the Cats you are completely missing out on their racial. And that's disregarding that the bonus human traits will eclipse whatever bonuses the animals get on top of being completely up to the player what bonuses they wish to take to help build their characters. Humans are just so much more flexible that it's kinda pointless to take the other races other than for the flavor.

 

I almost restarted my team and made an all-human team. Very bizarre.

[Randomizer]

To hit penalty really only matters against boss monsters. For instance against Sulfras on normal I'm at 90% to hit, but torment difficulty it's 20%. The actual difference with Sulfras's defense is probably greater. Also I didn't get dual wielding to 12 with points and training in a normal game because I needed points for other skills.

[Slawbug]

Of course, it's just between a 11% and 35% penalty depending on what you put into DW. Really I think a lot of this comes down to the Flaming Sword and how much disparity there is between fire resistance and armor. (Including for bosses.)

[Lilith]

Ooh, thanks for those points Lilith and Randomizer.

 

If it's anything like A:EFTP, I'm inclined to say that the to-hit penalty *might* matter on Torment, but can be avoided through intelligent stat, skill, equipment and especially trait allocation. Humans get so many traits that you can load up on Improved Strength and the like for a good number of +5% hit increases.

 

There's an opportunity cost to this. I'm around the end of chapter 1 now, and so far even after buying Improved Strength whenever possible, putting literally every stat point into Strength and wearing next to no encumbering armour, my fighters' hit rate against miniboss enemies still drops below 90% -- and because I've built so offensively, a lot of said enemies can one-shot my fighters with a lucky crit. If I had my sword user dual-wield right now, her damage output against powerful enemies would be worse than with a single sword.

 

I guess I'll continue through the game and see how things progress. Since I have both a sword and a polearm user, I'll be able to compare them directly; right now I gotta say the polearm user is looking pretty good.

[Slawbug]

I guess the other thing is that, if you don't chase after the QA/DW/LB skill set, you can instead put points into Priest Spells/Spellcraft/Resistance, with an emphasis on the latter. That gives you a very solid extra healer and mind-clearer (albeit with low SP) as well as a gorgeous defensive boost. And that puts a very expensive number on the opportunity cost you mention.

[Lilith]

Right now, my tentative advice would be that if you want two melee combatants in your party, you might as well make one a polearm user. Arguably it's not 100% optimal to have two melee combatants in your party in the first place, but polearms are amazing in the early game (which, on Torment, can be hard enough to be worth keeping in mind when optimising your party) and it's nice to be able to clear out minor enemies without spending too many spell points.

[Tyranicus]

...but polearms are amazing in the early game...

Especially since you can get the lava-fired spear very early in the game.

[Jerakeen]

Especially since you can get the lava-fired spear very early in the game.

Which does less damage than the steel spear. OTOH, the steel spear is almost overkill in my slith's hands atm anyway. On normal, I've encountered little so far that he can't one-shot. I'm sure that will change.

 

In other balance notes, Cloak of Curses seems to have gotten an upgrade. At least it seems to go into effect a lot more often.

 

And I notice that the early spell tomes have much lower AL requirements than was typical in AEFTP. Guessing this is to encourage people to actually put some points into AL instead of waiting for Sage Lore.

[Randomizer]

There used to be an Arcane Lore trainer in the early part of Avernum 4 to 6, which encouraged players to wait for it.

[Slawbug]

And even AEFTP did have an Arcane Lore trainer. Now there isn't one. I really think it's a poor trade-off to spend skill points instead of traits, but hey...

[Jerakeen]

And even AEFTP did have an Arcane Lore trainer. Now there isn't one. I really think it's a poor trade-off to spend skill points instead of traits, but hey...

If power-gaming, you're absolutely right. But presumably the game is balanced to be beatable on Normal with a sub-optimal party.

 

One thing I really like, new starting positions for outdoor encounters. The box formation is hugely superior to the line.

[Languorous_Maiar]

Lava spear is great for first mage. While Slith is using steel spear, armor and protection from lava helps a lot second char, who in most cases is in a lot of trouble.

 

 

And even AEFTP did have an Arcane Lore trainer.

Imho Erica as a arcane lore trainer is useless. By the time you can get pass her monsters you should have already sage lore.

 

I even created thread about maxing the spells:

http://spiderwebforu...rmentquestions/

 

Basically, in A:EFTP Sage Lore is no-brainer choice. While in theory going to learn from Erica, then going to Stagnant Tunnels should be little more profitable, her monsters are really terrible on torment.

[watupden]

I think the races are balanced okay. Thing is you don't need every single trait. A lot of them offer very little to a specified character build. Having +1 endurance or dex add nothing to the entirety of a character. Humans you can see Jeff made for more hybrid character like a paladin a warrior that wants to cast priest spells and be able to tank effeciently or sword mage while the other races are suited for a more specialized role.

[Jukai]

I think the races are balanced okay. Thing is you don't need every single trait. A lot of them offer very little to a specified character build. Having +1 endurance or dex add nothing to the entirety of a character. Humans you can see Jeff made for more hybrid character like a paladin a warrior that wants to cast priest spells and be able to tank effeciently or sword mage while the other races are suited for a more specialized role.

 

By level 30, my Human will have 3 more Strength and 3 more Endurance.then my Slith

[watupden]

By level 30, my Human will have 3 more Strength and 3 more Endurance.then my Slith

 

ya but what is that like 1 percent more damage and 15 health. Not a game changer.

[Slawbug]

Actually at level 30 it's 8 extra traits. So that's the equivalent of 20 lbs of equippable items, probably around 8-10% more damage, +20% to hit, 20 health, and a boost of a bit over 8% IIRC to several different resistances, especially poison and acid (for spellcasters this also includes mental resistance!).

 

The 4 core stats are actually some of the most valuable stats to have extra points in. Is it a night and day difference? No, but it's rather bigger than most of the optimization-type differences that matter on the higher difficulties.

[Jukai]

ya but what is that like 1 percent more damage and 15 health. Not a game changer.

 

That 15 health, 2% resistance, 15% hit chance and 3 damage is huge in torment.

[Trenton.]

Has anyone noticed a decrease in hit chance over all? No matter how High I set Dexterity and my weapon skills, I seem to miss three times out of five.

[watupden]

That 15 health, 2% resistance, 15% hit chance and 3 damage is huge in torment.

 

a cat bow user for example doesn't need extra hit chance or more health. It'' usually always be 90 chance to hit. A cat missle user can shred enemy to pieces with javeline. As for torment, people forget jeff puts consumables in his games. One pot or spell scroll makes a unwinnable hard fight into ezepeezee even on torment difficulty.

[Randomizer]

Dexterity only helps with bows and missile weapons, not with melee weapons.

[Lilith]

Dexterity only helps with bows and missile weapons, not with melee weapons.

 

Yep: if you want to improve your hit rate in melee, you should be pumping Strength. Also, if you're having trouble hitting things, avoid pieces of armour that reduce your hit rate unless you're sure the benefits are good enough to make up for that. It's pretty easy to stack up like 40% of to-hit penalties for a pretty marginal defensive benefit.

[Trenton.]

Yep: if you want to improve your hit rate in melee, you should be pumping Strength. Also, if you're having trouble hitting things, avoid pieces of armour that reduce your hit rate unless you're sure the benefits are good enough to make up for that. It's pretty easy to stack up like 40% of to-hit penalties for a pretty marginal defensive benefit.

Yep, this was it. I just noticed how many -5% and -10% hit penalties I had.

[Slawbug]

a cat bow user for example doesn't need extra hit chance or more health. It'' usually always be 90 chance to hit.... As for torment, people forget jeff puts consumables in his games. One pot or spell scroll makes a unwinnable hard fight into ezepeezee even on torment difficulty.

No offense, but you're clearly talking beyond your play experience here.

[Oneiros]

I see that intelligence increases priest damage, but not priest healing. Does it do anything for blessing spells?

[Nim]

Accuracy cap seems to be 90% now instead of 95% like in EftP. This is really irritating

[Jukai]

a cat bow user for example doesn't need extra hit chance or more health. It'' usually always be 90 chance to hit.

 

Welp, stopped reading here. Good luck in whatever universe you are playing Avernum in.

 

Is there any advantage of using a shortbow over a long bow?There are some expensive shortbows that are put to shame by a long bow that has a value of 50...

[Slawbug]

I see that intelligence increases priest damage, but not priest healing. Does it do anything for blessing spells?

We know that buffs and debuffs have a fixed effect (at least the regular ones, though I think that is also true of cloaks/wards). However their duration is not fixed. I tested this just now. As far as I can tell, neither Intelligence nor Priest Spells affect the duration. Spellcraft can, as can "+% to Blessings/Curses you cause" from traits or items. The effect is just what it says on the tin: a +10% bonus means the average duration (in rounds) will be 10% higher. There is a small random factor and then the bonus is applied on top of that. Note that the maximum possible duration goes up more than 10%, but the minimum possible duration doesn't go up very quickly.

 

Possibly interesting: it seems that there are two random factors. One is determined once per casting, the other is determined once per target... however, it's the second random factor that your bonus (from spellcraft/blessingbonus) is multiplied by. Thus, if you have no bonus at all you will see the same duration on all targets, but if you have a bonus, targets may see different increases in duration; and the higher your bonus, the more variation you are likely to see.

[Randomizer]

Accuracy cap seems to be 90% now instead of 95% like in EftP. This is really irritating

The minimum to hit of 20% becomes very important for one game ending combat if you don't have a melee fighter.

[Slawbug]

I miss Mindduel.

[Jukai]

I miss Mindduel.

 

I know, right?

[Jukai]

Man, this game would be a lot easier if the monsters these magical creatures summon weren't infinitely stronger than the summoner...

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

You used mindduel? I remember trying it out once or twice but not seeing any major results out of it.

I think I tried it on a golem crystal also. I don't really remember the effects either. Something about stealing energy points from the enemy? Standard attacks seemed to work well enough that I never went back to trying it out.

[Randomizer]

I used it once on Garzahd and it was funny.

[Gharbad the handsome]

I really liked that spell. You could use it to steal spellpoints from enemies, and whoever ran out of spellpoints first was dumbfounded. How likely you were to win the duel depended on your intelligence and your target's intelligence.

[Hexcel]

I haven't started up A2:CS yet as I want to finish my current playthrough of A:EftP and dive right into the sequel from there, but as far as I can tell the spells are all identical right? (plus Capture Soul and Simulacrum) Have they been tweaked at all or do they compare similarly to the way they were balanced in A:EftP?

 

For instance, Daze's extra effects vs. Slow, Icy Rain being useful all game, Spray Acid not being very useful, etc.

 

I remember the original A2 spells were quite different. Is the spell that summons multiple shades gone?

[Slawbug]

There are some very minor tweaks but mostly they are identical to A:EftP.

 

There are 2 new priest spells as well, which are primarily exploration oriented: Move Mountains and Sanctification Ritual.

 

And yeah, the other A2 spells (Cloud of Blades, Forcecage, etc.) are gone, as are the kazillion Exile 2 spells, of course.

[Randomizer]

Sanctification Ritual has two purposes. Out of combat it destroys Dark Altars for experience. In combat it is a physical attack circular area of effect spell.

 

Spray Acid is becoming worthless because so many monsters resist taking damage after the first round. Daze's 2nd level entangle is still there and very useful versus melee monsters.

 

Divine Retribution has become an energy attack with added mental effects at higher levels like slow at 2nd level.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Should I restart with only humans?

I'm not that far in, but if they are really that much better.....?

[Randomizer]

It depends upon the game difficulty setting. On normal there isn't anything wrong with non-human characters. Even on torment you can get away with non-optimal parties.

 

Synergy said once all your party members can get adrenaline rush battle discipline the game gets really easy.

[Lilith]

Sanctification Ritual has two purposes. Out of combat it destroys Dark Altars for experience. In combat it is a physical attack circular area of effect spell.

 

Move Mountains is the one that's an attack spell when used in combat. Sanctification Ritual is a full-party bless, heal and cure. It's super expensive for that purpose, but it's available earlier than Mass Healing and much earlier than Divine Restoration, so it might be useful in emergencies.

[Jukai]

Should I restart with only humans?

I'm not that far in, but if they are really that much better.....?

 

Im really struggling. Serves me right for making a Slith tank and a Kitty priest though.

[Edgwyn]

Im really struggling. Serves me right for making a Slith tank and a Kitty priest though.

 

I have just started my game on normal with a Slith tank and a Kitty priest as well. So far it has been fine with my Slith doing good damage with his spear and my Kitty good damage with the bow. I usually play through with decidedly sub-optimal builds anyway.