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Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Avernum 1 hit to chance

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 09:29 PM #1 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

I played the first avernum series several years ago. At that time, I realized later that you can just 'buy' the blademaster skill! Wow... The points put into melee skills turned into vain since the hit-to-chance had already been way above 100%. That was sad :(

Now, I'm trying it for the second time. But I'm somewhat curious about this fact: your base hit-to-chance is 30% and it increases as you put more points into the corresponding weapon skill. That means only 11 points are needed to acquire the 95% limit, right? Then do points invested above 11 only increase the damage? If that's true, then I think the later acquirable NPCs are overrated. Theresa for example, has 23 melee skills, and that's even not considering the blademaster skill. Armors are said to lower the hit-to-chance, but I think some blessings are enough to negate it.

Is the formula correct as I've described? Or are there other factors that I should consider more?

P.S. Well, since melee skill seems to add damage after the 11th point, I think it's worth it anyway.
By the way, I wish I could edit the experience somehow: the NPCs do not have the corresponding experience when they join you, and I think it's not good. Hmm... have any ideas?

Venus Ursagi Venus Ursagi

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 05:10 AM #2 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Your chance to-hit is always reduced by your enemy's chance to dodge, and caps are applied about that subtraction takes place.
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Posted 22 December 2014 - 02:36 AM #3 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Hm, but even considering that I remember that I always got 95% chance to hit anyone. Maybe this time I should try to find the minimum possible stats required to achieve the 95% hit rate.

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 03:35 AM #4 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

OK. I think more questions will arise as I play this one more time, so I decided to ask questions on this thread rather than keep making another one. Unfortunately, I think I cannot modify the title, though.

I'm actually thinking of throwing away the mage class in my party later on by replacing the position with other NPCs. Because

(1) IIRC later in this game my impression was that magic becomes less and less useful than swords.
(2) I'm not sure about this, but divine fire and fire blast seem to deal similar amount of fire damage. Maybe fire blast will do more damage, but maybe I can ignore the difference. Lightning spray is incredibly useful early on, so that's exactly why I'm still going to use mage in the early games.
(3) I think other than arcane blow, priest has better spells overall in later games according to the description of the game. He can still use divine fire which is I think almost the same as fire blast (I'm not sure though...) for area effect, and he has a lot of crucial buff spells.
(4) IIRC I can buy dispel barrier scrolls or something so it wouldn't be a problem, I guess.

How do you think about this? I'm going to make every warriors to be able to spell haste by themselves later, so it wouldn't be a problem, either. Just want to hear some advice :)

[Edit] Hm, while the first blast requires 13 mage skills, divine fire only requires 10 priest skills, so maybe first blast is much stronger. Maybe I should have Sabrina put some points into mage to use area-effective skills.

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 06:29 AM #5 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

View PostTaxxiDriver, on 22 December 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

(4) IIRC I can buy dispel barrier scrolls or something so it wouldn't be a problem, I guess.
Piercing crystals and dispel barrier scrolls cast the spell at level 2.  Some barriers can be broken only by level 3 dispel barrier.
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Randomizer Randomizer

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 08:12 AM #6 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Mage spells tend to cost less spell energy than priest attack spells and have more different damage types.

Magic can target more monsters per round than weapons.
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Posted 22 December 2014 - 10:26 AM #7 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

priest spells are mainly heals and buffs and some enemies have good resistance to phys damage so mage is needed due that and what randomizer said, 3 fighters and priest can't kill big groups as quickly as 2 fighters and 2 casters (at least not until priest has access to div fire (useless against fire resistant monsters) and then priest needs tons of energy potions).

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 07:48 PM #8 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Thanks everyone: I decided to add one mage in my party. I'm going to have two casters in my party: one with max priest spells and 3 mage speels (for haste), and one with max mage spells and 6 priest spells (mass healing, unshackle mind). How do you think about this mix? Maybe 6 priest spells for the mage is just a waste, I'm not sure.

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 08:01 PM #9 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

There are times when you need to remove mental effects from your max priest, however I find that is also the time where the max mage needs it too.  :(

That time of mix usually works well in the game.
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Posted 22 December 2014 - 08:24 PM #10 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Thanks for the answer! Then what do you think about giving 3 mage spells or 1 priest spell for warriors? I was thinking putting 3 mage spells is a bit of waste but perhaps 1 priest spell would be useful. And according to silver's annotated map, putting some mage skills and spells to warriors help mung demons to cast dumbfounding to warriors instead, so I was wondering if 1 point in priest spell and maxing out the basic 4 priest spells is enough to do the trick.

[Edited] Misunderstood the answer first, so edited it.

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 08:58 PM #11 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Mage spells are a waste with fighters because their armor encumbrance means they usually can't cast them, however you don't have the same problem with priest spells.  Having extra casters of healing helps especially in the long dungeon encounters after the fights.

I never tried out the mung demon trick because there are only a few places where it will work.
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Posted 22 December 2014 - 10:50 PM #12 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

You're right, indeed. Now I think the party problem is all solved :)

A few questions about the shops: is there any information which shops give you which price for your selling? The buying price is listed in the game, but the selling price seems to vary not depending on the information (slightly expensive, etc). Also, do the stocks refill? IIRC they do refill but may be refilled at the start of the month or exactly after a month but I'm not sure.

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 08:45 PM #13 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

View PostTaxxiDriver, on 22 December 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

Hm, but even considering that I remember that I always got 95% chance to hit anyone. Maybe this time I should try to find the minimum possible stats required to achieve the 95% hit rate.
This is going to depend on what enemy you attack, since different enemies have different dodge rates.
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Posted 23 December 2014 - 09:00 PM #14 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Also monsters with the same name may be set at different levels in the game.  Rats get tougher the further into the game.
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"Oh, I'm sure we can think of something .... How much gold do you have?" - "Hero"

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Ishad Nha Ishad Nha

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Posted 25 December 2014 - 05:50 PM #15 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Back to post #10, I give fighters one level in Mage spells at creation. Then I later increase it to three levels because they can cast level 3 Haste soon enough.
During a combat, fighters usually won't achieve much in their first move but they can haste the whole party.

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 05:29 AM #16 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Phew, thanks to everyone. I made a different party this time and it was very satisfactory to me. First three start with 6 priest skill levels, one start with 8 mage skill levels. The first three end up with 18 priest skill levels, the last ends up with 13 mage/10 or 12 priest skill levels. All starting with toughness/natural mage. 8 hardiness, around 6~8 luck, putting around 8 points into melee weapons etc. This party is so versatile and tough that it never died except those early dealy traps. The game was even felt so easy with this party. Finished the surface mission at around 30 at the hardest difficulty and now resting a bit. Many thanks to those who answered my questions and to the author of annotated map(Silver), damage stat/magic equipment research(Thoukydides). Without those, it would have been no better than the first play in the normal difficulty.

Here are some of my experience:

1. Thoukydides says he hasn't seen War Charm and Warmth Charm but I've bought both of them. IIRC War Charm from the hermit near the Tower of Magi and Warmth Charm from Dexter in Almaria.

2. There's a post about complaining that the invisible gaurdians near Sulfras cannot be attacked(http://spiderwebforu...ge__hl__sulfras). And so did I. They just block the way and cannot be even attacked. Very annoying. Though I taught some lessons to Sulfras due to its arrogance, ha!

3. Surprised that I forgot so many humorous parts in the game. I laughed hard after I had talked with the small lizard in Spire.



Since everyone says Avernum 2 is also really great, maybe I have to try it as well now. Had so much fun.

Thoukydides Thoukydides

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 05:51 PM #17 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

I've updated my magic items post to show the effects of those two charms. Since Avernum doesn't have a give item command in the editor, I tested them in Avernum 2. I wasn't able to confirm an effect for the War Charm, so it's either bugged in A2 or it's an obscure effect. Thanks for finding those two items though.

To answer Fire Blast vs Divine Fire, according to the manual:
Fire Blast targets more enemies and gets a higher bonus from stats. In practice though, the damage is not much of a difference. The low number of targets on Divine Fire is pretty bad though.
Fire Blast Level 3: 3 + B/5 targets, 9-90 + B fire damage.
Divine Fire Level 3: 1 + B/12 targets, 8-96 + B/2 fire damage.

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 08:10 PM #18 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Thanks for the useful information! I also tested the War Charm in Avernum 1 roughly against Knoth, and my result is the same: it does nothing. If somebody wants to test it rigorously, I have my save file so just tell me.

By the way, is there a manual for Avernum 1? I've been playing with the GOG version, and it only has manuals starting from Avernum 3(I don't know why...). I even installed the Demo version just to get the manual but to no avail.

For the Divine Fire, my priest had 18 priest skill levels with 2 intelligence, so B=18+(2/2)=19 I guess. But it can cast it to as many as 8 enemies now. The mage had 13 mage skill levels with 2 intelligence, so B=13+(2/2)=14 but was able to cast Fireblast to as many as the same 8 enemies. Maybe I haven't understood the formula for B correctly, but still the gap seems to be quite huge: for the priest, B should be 84~95 and for the mage, B should be 25~29.

Lastly, the manual of Avernum 3 asserts that B=priest/mage skill levels+intelligence. So was the formula for B priest/mage skill levels+(intelligence/2) only in Avernum 1 and 2?

I seem to have a lot of questions :whistle:

Thoukydides Thoukydides

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 10:29 AM #19 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

There is a help file for Avernum. You should be able to get it from the demo version on the Spiderweb Software downloads page. My version is an old Windows help file that required a patch to open.
The spell equations I listed were taken from the manual, however your experience with Divine Fire seems to show the manual is incorrect. Oddly enough, most of the stat and trait effects listed in the manual are correct in a way.

Spell bonus according to the manual for Avernum 1:
"Here are lists of all of the mage and priest spells in Avernum. With many of the spells are descriptions of their effects at each level (1 to 3). In these descriptions, B is the spells bonus. Your bonus for casting mage spells is your mage spells skill plus half of your intelligence. Your bonus for casting priest spells is your priest spells skill plus half of your intelligence."
My own testing agrees with this, my equation is B=(Int/2)+Spell Skill+Magery.
Did your casters have any Magery or items that might boost spells like the Robe of Magery or the magic bracelets?
I don't understand this -

Quote

Maybe I haven't understood the formula for B correctly, but still the gap seems to be quite huge: for the priest, B should be 84~95 and for the mage, B should be 25~29.
Is this the damage you're seeing? Are the two spells both at level 3? I don't recall Fire Blast being so bad.

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 03:29 PM #20 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

Ah, you're right. I forgot (1) magery (2) natural mage and (3) magery/priest bracelet. But still, the gap seems to be too huge. The range of B I listed above is for the number of targets each spell can be casted to. For example, for LV3 Divine Fire 1 + B/12 = 8 (rounded down), so B/12 = 7, B=84~95. Now my priest has the priest bracelet with 10 magery (5+2+3: 2 from the Crypt of Drath and 3 from the crystal), but still it's not enough to cover the minimum 84 even considering the natural mage bonus(priest: LV33, mage: LV34). I think at least Fireblast seems to be correct(or at least near correct) considering 7 magery+2 magery bracelet+natural mage bonus, though.

I'll also check the help file from the demo. Thanks :)

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 07:22 PM #21 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

After more testing, the Divine Fire equation is 2+B/5 targets.
I'm still confused about this

Quote

so B/12 = 7, B=84~95
and this

Quote

but still it's not enough to cover the minimum 84 even considering the natural mage bonus(priest: LV33, mage: LV34).

I'm not sure what you mean by it. There are two different equations listed for Divine Fire, one is the target, which is 1+B/12, or 2+B/5. The other is the damage, 8-96+B/2, which is pretty much correct. So your priest gets a damage range of 8 to 96 plus [(2/2)+18+10+~8(the Nat. Mage bonus)+2(Priest Bracelet] for a total range of 8-96+39.
When I tested the damage 3 years ago, I got a range of 23-95, Avg. 65, with a Bonus of 50.5.

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 08:02 PM #22 Avernum 1 Hit To Chance Question

I was talking about the number of targets for each spell, so the equation I'd been mentioning was 1+B/12. As I've noticed, Divine Fire was able to target 8 enemies so 1+B/12=8 came out, resulting B/12=7 (rounded down). Sorry for the confusion: I should have clarified the original equation first. I also think the damage formula seems to work as indicated.

And most of all, thanks for your testing it :) That makes sense now.





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