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Some Random Thoughts(Gameplay/Story Improvements)


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Just finished my second replay of G5(Got all endings the first time, but decided to replay the whole series for the lols), and had some ideas on how to improve either gameplay or story, just in case the games ever get a remake(And games 1 and 2 are dying for one, especially their inventories), or even another game in the set. Both are things I would like to see, and as such, figured I'd get some of these ideas out there.

 

First, some gameplay enhancements. The PC in game 5, especially compared to his fore-bearers is rather weak gameplay wise. I mean, I remember eventually being able to steam roll certain maps in games 1-4, but here, I can barely beat even mid game challenges with an end game character, and some of those end game challenges are darn near impossible on the hardest difficulty.

 

Now, to counter some of these challenges, I think the PC should get some boosts as well. For instance, melee and missile attacks. Right now, the multi attack ability of melee is tied with Quick Action, which makes some sense, but it means that Melee is never quite as good as it should be, IMO. In G5 they 'fixed' this mostly by nerfing Shaping and Spells enough to bring them down to its level, rather than making it strong, which would actually be easy.

 

How would it be easy? Well, just take that multi hit from QA, and instead tie it into the Melee Skill, and give Missile attacks a bit of a boost to their Crit rating(For instance, give the Crit of a missile attack the ability to ignore all defenses and do max damage regardless of everything else). Oh, and make it so Multi attack isn't just once and done, instead have it be a chance of happening that halves every time it does, allowing you to do it theoretically until the target is dead(In reality, probably maxed out at 5 times, if that).

 

Of course, speaking of buffing, something else I noted while replaying is the Spell Levels. Those...don't matter nearly as much as I remember, even in earlier games. For Battle Spells, it's about 1-5 damage boost per level, not exactly big time. For Status(Both Buff and Debuff), the effect is, I think, a few seconds longer for the effect, and for Healing magic, it's the same thing, 1-5 boost to your healing power.

 

Now, I would keep that effect, since it's minor, but add another to it. Any level over the first has the effect of making the spell cost one less Essence point per casting. This would necessitate the raising of Training cost for the spell skills by an order of magnitude(X10), but I think it would give me a reason to go after them. Ability to Poison enemies without taking away from my creations, yes please. Heck, it wouldn't even be that unbalanced, considering the highest cost spells tend to be 10 essence points, and I think the most I ever raised a single spell skill was 6, for Firebolt in G1, it would just give the early-mid game spells a way to stay relevant the entire game.

 

And now we come to my favorite part of the game, and what makes it one of the most unique, Shaping. This is already pretty well balanced, and it shows off both good design, and some real thought put into it. However, there is nothing that can't be improved, at least as long as it isn't Portal, so let's take a look at Shaping.

 

In this, I think the only way that it can be made better is to give it one more level. The Creation's stats are limited by a lot, since you can't just say, make a maxed out strength creation using all your essence. I wouldn't change that, BTW, as that could cause errors in the game. Instead I would suggest something else. All those bulbs/lights on the creation menu for these things. They have a serious diminishing return in the last few, so how's about we enhance those. Namely by allowing better creations if they're all filled in.

 

The way I see this working, if you're making a First Tier creation, it turns into a Second Tier if you give it all the juice(Stated to be an ability only you have, BTW, to make you out to be special). Now, this would be expensive, even with some stat boosts, and you could only make one or two of these at a time, even in the end game. Still, it would allow you to make the Second Tier's without scouring the entire world for trainers/canisters.

 

Of course, if you are willing to go that far, you do get one more enhancement. Namely, a new Third Tier. First were the Basic Creations, Second are the Optimized Creations, and then Third comes the Perfected Creations, all of which have some form of enhancement onto them to make them worth having only a party of one. I see them going like this.(I'm gonna use Tier 1 names for them, since I can't think of stuff to call them otherwise.)

 

Fyora: Faster than normal, having 15 AP at start of combat, and thus, can move twice. Not a big enhancement, but with them having maxed out stats as well, these things are a battering ram.

 

Roamer: Has that Poison Rain Ability as it's base attack.

 

Drayk: Uses an energy attack now, and can 'Surround with lightning' as Energy is less resisted that fire or ice.

 

Kyshakk: I don't use these enough to suggest anything. Any ideas?

 

Drakon: An innate Terror Ability. At the start of every round, anything that is in sight of the Drakon(meaing they can see it) has a chance of being terrified, and running off. This is independent of its own action that round.

 

Thahd: Has a chance to Daze anything it hits.

 

Clawbug: Anything killed by one of these becomes another Clawbug that's AI controlled friendly, for the remainder of the current map.

 

Battle Alpha: Battle Zetta(So Zetta Fast, World Ends With You reference), these things benefit from the whole, multi strike ability, hitting at least twice every time, maybe more if their dex is higher/lady luck is kind.

 

Rotghroth: Anything suffering poison or acid status nearby gives these guys it's HP, implied to be them literally absorbing the rot.

 

War Trall: Also don't use them enough to think of anything. Ideas?

 

Artila: Essence Absorb. Damage done by these creations is given back to you at a 1/10 rating as essence.

 

Vlish: Submission Vlish. These would trade the poison/curse for a Charm to their attack, which flips an enemy to your side, for a set amount of time.

 

Glaahk: Also don't use these enough. And again, ideas?

 

Wingbolt: If they kill something in the round, they get a bonus move.

 

Gazer: Add a charm effect to their Aura attack, making them an enhanced Summoned Vlish

 

Ornk: Two ways to go here, the Ultimate Scout, or the Vaporal Rat.

The first is basically, take away their ability to attack, but give them infinite AP, so they can literally go anywhere on the map at any time.

The second is a take on something from an early 2000s game called the Bard's Tale. In this, the Ornk's gain a massive boost to attack, something that is either a non-element or otherwise powerful, but are no sturdier than before, meaning they're glass cannons.

Since the Ornk canisters are always hard to find(Still haven't found the one in G5 myself, got the ones in all the others, though took a while to figure out how to make one in G4) these aren't going to be too overpowered, especially since those canisters tend to be found near end game anyway.

 

 

 

Those are my gameplay enhancement ideas, how's about storyline? Well, for games 1-4 I would just say, make things connect better than they do right now, as some examples.

 

G1: Make it so doing something like resuscitating Mind 4 causes you to sometimes spawn in areas with Friendly Creations nearby. Other ones like that include if you join with a faction you can sometimes get its warriors to help you, and the like.

 

G2: Can't think of a good way to make this one work....hmm....nope, it already connects pretty well. Maybe have something like, if you take both Conduit Shards when you leave the valley while unaligned, you get a special ending where the valley descends into chaos, since no one can finish their project, and the Shapers eventually sweep in and kill them all, at massive cost so you're not as celebrated as if you'd done it yourself.

 

G3: Add some interactions, like on Island 2, if the leader chooses to ignore the fact that Litalia is the one who caused their whole rogue problem, you can then bring it up with someone else in his camp, turning them against him, and driving them away. Also, if named characters leave a map(Like the scouts on Island 3), they should show up at the main bases or camps later. This applies to G4 as well as G3.

 

G4: Have the ability to argue a bit more, or at least call the Drakon's out on their tactic. Heck, offer to lead a charge instead of using the Unbound, and if you helped the Rebels the whole way, give you a better ending, like instead of becoming literal scorched earth terrorists, you turn them into a fortified nation instead, forcing peace.

 

Now, as for G5, the biggest enhancement I can think of storywise is the endings. Namely that the endings are a bit too...general for my taste. Oh, they start off unique and interesting, but most of the endings descend into the same thing. Heck, for the Shaper/Councilor endings, there is no change in them, not really. And with most endings, they say Terrestira returns to normal, or words to that effect, which is literally impossible in two of the five endings, and quite difficult in two of the others.

 

Mind, I understand why this is. Jeff was probably overworking himself just to get this game out as quick as he did, among all the other projects, and it's still not bad, it's even pretty good, but they could have been great with just a little bit of extra effort, and I came up with some ideas on how to make them better. Namely, right now there is no perfect ending, and no bad ending, all have their points. I would say, add 3 variations onto each ending in and of itself, one Good Ending, one Bad Endings, and one Golden Ending.

 

 

 

Rawal: For him, just go with what you have now. Add in a bit of variation to it though. Instead of holing up in his mountains, when it seems the Shapers are losing, he offers his Tooled agents as the next step in defending themselves, and for a while, these people who will die if they don't fight to their hardest, do actually seemingly start to win. But then, just before they assault Gazaki, the Drakon's pull a trump card.

 

In canon, they were studying the control tools, and in this case, they learned to turn them on, activating them, and killing everyone with them. It would have a few lines of difference if you yourself got your tool removed, but you'd still get overwhelmed and lose regardless. This would then result in the Shapers losing the war, as there's not a big gap in their lines that the Drakons, having prepared for it, take full advantage of, pounding their way through. BTW, this would all be text, no pictures, just to make you know this was a bad ending no matter what you do.

 

 

 

Astoria: Instead of having you go around doing seemingly random or even detrimental things that prove she's wrong, have her send you around to get blackmail material on the Shaper Leaders, and the Rebel Leaders. In doing so you learn not just what their doing wrong, but also what they want, allowing you to use a carrot or stick approach to them. After this, Astoria calls the faction leaders together, and then you get to go around a table, using the info to get what you want.

 

Bad Ending: Blackmail them. This results in them being rather upset with you, and making the peace at best, a temporary thing, as they all chaff under the bindings of their blackmail material, with you never really being safe again.

 

Good Ending: Convincing them to work together to build a better future. Rawal and Gheldring want power, together they can gain it faster than alone. Alwin wants the war to end, and you can literally get the rebels to help him clean up the rogues, while promising not to make more. Taygen is the same as Alwin, the Trakovites would be a non-issue, and Astoria would want the whole thing over and done with. In this ending, you become a major ambassador and are able to power play well in the new world order, but everything is held together in that precarious balance of power, a single major innovation on either side could upset the balance, but for this lifetime at least, there is peace.

 

Golden Ending: The leadership has failed, this war has dragged on far too long, and none of the sides really know what right is anymore. In this ending, with the guards all gone, and just you alone with the leaders, you kill them. This results in you becoming the new leaders, ushering in a new age of peace as the Drakon's respect your power, and the outsiders and Shapers see no real way to dispute that the leadership was corrupt. You slowly build a new order, forcing drastic changes down everyone's throat, sometimes at the point of a blade, but you know the people, having lived among the normal people, the creations, and the Shapers, and know how to get the best results, creating a lasting peace, even after your death.

 

 

 

Trakovites: Instead of the rather insane things that Litalia has you do in G5, this time they use the setting a bit better. Namely, you hear throughout the game that the Woods People of the Mera, and the Nomads of the Desert fought the Shapers. In so doing, they designed devices to undo creations, and using their plans and materials, Litalia is going to build a massive version of their device, with you going around to get the stuff needed to make it. This would tail into the Bennhold quest, as he would have the last material, which would be a Resonance Stone, the secret of his success over the Shapers. Taking that from him by force or thought would lead to the end game where you are given the ability to set the power level of the device, which would determine your ending.

 

Bad Ending: In contrast to G4 where you wanted High Power to the Unbound creation facility, this time setting the Disruptor Device to high power causes problems. Namely it causes those with Essence in their bodies to combust. That includes creations, Shapers, and more importantly anything that has been Shaped, including those healed by Shapers, which since that would have been a common request back in the day, means just about everyone. And for those who don't just burn to ash, all standing pools of Essence explode like small scale suns, devastating civilization. Heck, with most of the ecosystem having been designed, like trees and crops, Terrestria itself is now dying.

 

Good Ending: The medium setting on the Device makes it so Essence can't exist in raw state, which kills all Shaping, but it doesn't kill those with Essence in them, so the Shapers and the Drakon's war is forcibly stopped as the normal people whom both sides had ignored, are suddenly thrust into the fore of civilization. With Shaping ended, the people of the continent have to learn whole new ways of doing things, and it results in many deaths, as even the healing magic of the Shapers is taken away. Millions die for their ideals, but there is peace, and in the end, the Trakovites consider that their victory.

 

Golden Ending: The Disruption Device on Low Power causes one of the more interesting endings, as Shaping doesn't die, but it changes forever. In effect, Essence is now hard to control, as using it causes something akin to a buzzing sound in your head. Those who can't focus, or are easily enraged(Shapers like Rawal or Taygen, and basically anyone who used canisters or the Geneforges, which includes you and Litalia), can no longer use their arts. Those who can pierce through the disruption need such focus and skill to do so that they are the type who never act without thought, and those who think through their actions are less likely to be focused on their own personal power, and more on stability and order. This results in a golden age, as the Shaping Arts are taken farther than ever before by those who truly earn the right to use them.

 

 

 

Alwin: His mission change from what they are, disrupting the other Councilors or otherwise making his the most visible solution, to just doing what he says he will. You are sent to defend the three forts, which you can do by either raw force, or by repairing defenses, or talking down the attackers. Once all three are secured, Alwin himself, wearing a special suit of armor, leads the assault, finally starting to die just as they reach Gazaki. You are then put in charge for your accomplishments with the forts and with the advancing Shaper forces. With that, you attack the Drakon's citadel, and then have to choose how to deal with the rebellion's core. Kill them all, focus on killing Gheldring, or kill all Drakons.

 

Bad Ending: Killing them all results in the largest melee the series has to offer. Literally as many units involved as can be fit onto the map, with you in the middle of it all, able to turn the tide of battle with Blessings, inspirational speeches, or just plain killing the other guys. Of course, now the rebels know that no quarter will be given, as the Shaper forces advance. This causes them to go even farther in their scorched earth policy. As you move east, you find the lands devastated, and whole areas salted, with nothing growing on them. Finally, when the last rebel falls, all you can do is look around at the burnt husk of a world around you, and ask if it was all worth it.

 

Good Ending: Alwin of course says that if you kill Gheldring, you can end the rebellion. And he's right, this will end the rebellion's ambitions. This leads to a medium sized brawl between you with a few Shaper allies, and Gheldring and a few Drakons. Win and you are treated to an ending where the Rebellion slowly begins to collapse, the Drakons carving their own little kingdoms out of the lands of the Rebellion, each with their own horrors to unleash. However lacking the resources that each had, these kingdoms are overcome one at a time, finally bringing about peace as you subjugated those who had refused to surrender.

 

Golden Ending: You kill all Drakons, leading to a fight between just you and Gheldring, implied that the others are busy elsewhere in the complex hunting down the other drakon, who otherwise would have run when their leader fell. With their downfall, the other rebels realize that its over, and surrender. Thanks to Alwin giving you command, you not only take their surrender, but also force terms on both them and the Shapers, something that Alwin wanted to do for the longest time, showing his morals from G3(Wherein he pointed out that he knew Shaper law wasn't always absolutely right, but that war wasn't the time for moral dilemmas). You basically take Alwin's position as Councilor using the fact that the Rebellion surrendered to you, not the other Shapers, and make the treatment of intelligent creations(Mostly Serviles), much better. This leads to a new golden age for Shapers as they don't have to worry as much about Rogues, and thus have the ability to focus more on their art.

 

 

 

Rebels: This would play out very similarly to what it does in canon, except you'd have more help with the assaults as the Rebels wouldn't just send you out to die, especially after that first victory against a Councilor. The big difference would be the Rebellion would have three leaders, Gheldring, Greta, and Mehken, representing the Drakons, the Humans, and the Serviles respectively. Upon getting to the Shaper Citadel in the ending, you get to help one of the three with their plan to end the tyranny of the Council once and for all.

 

Bad Ending: Helping Gheldring would cause the end battle to proceed exactly as it does normally, and once you win a new order is established, with Drakons at the top, and everyone else at the bottom. Not that there are no power struggles, with you becoming a top lieutenant under Gheldring, a position that puts you over even most Drakons. However, the lizards are crueler even than the Shapers in their victory, restricting even breeding among the 'lesser' races, and soon establishing a dynasty that would last until they are toppled, something that, thanks to their ReShaping, will not happen for a long, long time.

 

Good Ending: Helping Greta gets you an ending wherein you basically debate the Councilors to death, meaning you get them to surrender peacefully. This ending would result in the Shapers and the Rebellion splitting the continent in three. The drakons take the center, the Shapers the west, and everyone else the east. The Drakons serve as the so called Wind Guards, keeping the two sides separate, and maintaining their own power base, while the Shapers try to just ignore the loss of more than half their lands. The others build a society without Shaping, based of hard work and mutual trust. Slowly though, the average humans become disenfranchised in all lands, as they aren't Shapers, can't stand up to the Drakons,and are not as strong as the Serviles, who grow smarter with every generation. Greta's morality for the creations dooms humanity itself to a subservient role, but at least there is peace.

 

Golden Ending: Mehkan wants to do something about everyone, and instead of going into the Citadel to fight or to demand surrender, you go back to the town, and rally everyone, Servile, human, and Shaper, to yourself. This cause, the cause of the Rebellion has always been about freedom, but in the end, something corrupted it. Mehkan wants what they wanted even in the beginning, and rallying everyone behind her, with your help, they achieve it, forcing the militants on both sides to lay down their arms when its revealed that she, through her network of fellow spies, controls the food stores of the whole continent, and that all the farmers and other growers stand with them. Together, these normal people and serviles force a truce between the two sides, and create an elected leadership in place of the military ones that had been dominate for ages. And it works, the leaders, driven to help the people, not for personal power, actually start to improve things for everyone, and you and she descend into the shadows, to enjoy this peace you have made.

 

 

 

Taygen: His missions work, as does the Purity Agent, so I say leave those alone, but add something to the end, where instead of just pushing the button and getting the ending he wants, you are allowed to alter the Agent, as you are tasked with getting one final ingredient, that you then add. This final part is blood, either from you, from a sample Taygen prepared, or from a Drakon.

 

Bad Ending: Your blood added to the Agent causes it too be a bit less specific in its target. This means that everything that has ever been Shaped, be it through canisters, the art itself, or even just healing, is now dying. You alone are spared as the plague spreads(Your blood as base means the plague is literally part of you now). You are forced to wander the continent as everywhere around you things just fall over dead, sometimes melting before your eyes, and leaving you alone in a blasted wasteland(As stated above, even the ecosystem is Shaped to some degree).

 

Good Ending: Taygen's sample causes all creations to start dying, and only them. The plants stay, something he mentions as one of the goals of his study to make it so they don't devastate the biosphere. And it works. The Agent kills the creations, allowing the Shapers to just make a new generation of them after the plague has died down, and when only the humans of the Rebellion remain, they surrender themselves to the Shaper's mercy. Still, it is remembered that now one of their own has a weapon that can literally reset the board, and as everyone slowly recovers, that knowledge causes them all to sleep a little less well at night.

 

Golden Ending: Using the Drakon sample makes the Plague effect only them, something that kills the Rebellion almost overnight, as their heavy hitters literally drop dead. Taygen, pleased enough with the results, makes sure everyone knows it was your efforts that led to this victory, and you become a celebrated hero, enough that you can get the Rebellion's lands to be more peacefully reintegrated with Shaper society, allowing a more natural union to take place rather than a forced one, and slowly changing the way both sides see each other. You are celebrated as a hero, and life slowly goes back to the way it was before the Rebellion with a few improvements.

 

 

 

Those are just some random musings on the subject of the series and how to improve it. Hope you enjoyed reading them.

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  • 4 weeks later...

First, the difficulty of any Geneforge game is usually dependent on your build or your tactics, with each game of course becoming more difficult than the previous. With that said, I think Genforge 5 was actually a step back in difficulty, I found it to be easier than GF4 and GF3.

 

I do agree that Melee/Missile combat is weaker than Magic and Shaping, I too would like to see it boosted somehow. My suggestion is that a Guardian has an ability list, just like the Agent has spells and the Shaper has creations. These abilities would work the same way, e.g. the Guardian has a chance to riposte attacks that is equal to Dexterity + Parry + Riposte. Of course, this Riposte ability can't be raised with skill points, only with training or canisters (and maybe as a quest reward).

 

I also like your idea about creations you keep for a long time evolving into better forms. Though I would prefer it if these forms would be a type of creation that you can't get otherwise (e.g Fyora evolves to Warped Fyora, Cryoa evolves to Pit-Bred Cryoa). With that said, I think your ideas for "Perected Creations" would probably make the games too easy.

 

I'm not going to comment on your storyline changes.

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  • 5 weeks later...

I kind of like these suggestions, in a perfect world, maybe Jeff could implement these and other suggestions and GeneForge would be world famous.

 

Yeah, melee sucks, everyone knows that. The first three GeneForge games were made roughly around the time of the first three Avernum games, and borrowed on the combat. So it's to be expected that the melee is kind of boring. I would say the laziest solution is to implement the melee abilities from Avernum and call it a day. I like where your going by making multi-attack dependent on melee and improving crit on missiles. Melee builds are usually durable and they can survive long enough for multi-attack procs to whittle enemies down. Whereas Ranged builds tend to be fragile and the crit will help them burst enemies before they can touch them.

 

The idea of a third "perfected" tier is kind of interesting, though it doesn't really follow with GeneForge's story, I can see it being implemented in the game. It's been explained that new creation models are found by bombarding pre-existing organisms with magical radiation, in hopes of finding something useful. Even the rebels do this, despite knowing how genes work. So finding a "perfect" model of a creation is really unlikely.

 

The Bad, Good, and Golden were pretty cool to read. The strongest point of each ending, is that they feel like sub-factions within the factions themselves. The rebel endings are the most obvious examples, where the rebels have broken into three different branches: Drakons, Humans and Serviles, but each have their own take on the rebel ideology.

 

Some of the endings sound weak or completely boring. Take for example, Alwan's bad ending, where you have this massive melee fight that...

Literally as many units involved as can be fit onto the map, with you in the middle of it all

With GeneForge's combat engine, that would be unbearable. I suspect that you're familiar with the area south of Perikalia in GeneForge 5, where rogues invade the city. That was the WORST area for me. I'd rather grind through the entire game on Torment with nothing but ornks, because there were so many NPCs and enemies on that map that I had to wait 1 minute between each turn. I got so bored that I just hid from the rogues, until the guards or rogues were slaughtered.

 

Nevertheless, if GeneForge had this elaborate of a story, I would have no doubt that it would be compared to something like PlaneScape: Torment.

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  • 2 weeks later...

First, the difficulty of any Geneforge game is usually dependent on your build or your tactics, with each game of course becoming more difficult than the previous. With that said, I think Genforge 5 was actually a step back in difficulty, I found it to be easier than GF4 and GF3.

 

I do agree that Melee/Missile combat is weaker than Magic and Shaping, I too would like to see it boosted somehow. My suggestion is that a Guardian has an ability list, just like the Agent has spells and the Shaper has creations. These abilities would work the same way, e.g. the Guardian has a chance to riposte attacks that is equal to Dexterity + Parry + Riposte. Of course, this Riposte ability can't be raised with skill points, only with training or canisters (and maybe as a quest reward).

 

I also like your idea about creations you keep for a long time evolving into better forms. Though I would prefer it if these forms would be a type of creation that you can't get otherwise (e.g Fyora evolves to Warped Fyora, Cryoa evolves to Pit-Bred Cryoa). With that said, I think your ideas for "Perected Creations" would probably make the games too easy.

 

I'm not going to comment on your storyline changes.

 

That might work too, adding some 'Special' attack sort of things(Like say, give the Abilities of a Guardian to regenerate HP naturally, or a Legend of Zelda style sword beam every time you swing your blade). Still, I was trying to think of how to make the mundane guardians and others better, rather than just the magical upgrades of the others.

 

As for the third level creations, remember, they require a maxed out second level creation, so they would balance out mostly by the fact that the player would need to invest more points in EP raising stats and abilities than otherwise, leaving the player themself as a load for their powerful, and very much singular, creation. This would be the balance as I see it, with you, the shaper themself, basically being the single point of failure, and having to run away from basically every combat threat.

 

 

 

 

I kind of like these suggestions, in a perfect world, maybe Jeff could implement these and other suggestions and GeneForge would be world famous.

 

Yeah, melee sucks, everyone knows that. The first three GeneForge games were made roughly around the time of the first three Avernum games, and borrowed on the combat. So it's to be expected that the melee is kind of boring. I would say the laziest solution is to implement the melee abilities from Avernum and call it a day. I like where your going by making multi-attack dependent on melee and improving crit on missiles. Melee builds are usually durable and they can survive long enough for multi-attack procs to whittle enemies down. Whereas Ranged builds tend to be fragile and the crit will help them burst enemies before they can touch them.

 

The idea of a third "perfected" tier is kind of interesting, though it doesn't really follow with GeneForge's story, I can see it being implemented in the game. It's been explained that new creation models are found by bombarding pre-existing organisms with magical radiation, in hopes of finding something useful. Even the rebels do this, despite knowing how genes work. So finding a "perfect" model of a creation is really unlikely.

 

The Bad, Good, and Golden were pretty cool to read. The strongest point of each ending, is that they feel like sub-factions within the factions themselves. The rebel endings are the most obvious examples, where the rebels have broken into three different branches: Drakons, Humans and Serviles, but each have their own take on the rebel ideology.

 

Some of the endings sound weak or completely boring. Take for example, Alwan's bad ending, where you have this massive melee fight that...

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With GeneForge's combat engine, that would be unbearable. I suspect that you're familiar with the area south of Perikalia in GeneForge 5, where rogues invade the city. That was the WORST area for me. I'd rather grind through the entire game on Torment with nothing but ornks, because there were so many NPCs and enemies on that map that I had to wait 1 minute between each turn. I got so bored that I just hid from the rogues, until the guards or rogues were slaughtered.

 

Nevertheless, if GeneForge had this elaborate of a story, I would have no doubt that it would be compared to something like PlaneScape: Torment.

 

Had to reload the game to find out what you were talking about, but once I saw what map it was, I did remember. I must comment, I enjoyed that one for the most part, only getting frustrated because the baddies kept running around the map, rather than coming at me, which these would do, as this is the final battle, and they'd be on the defensive, rather than attacking. Still, my build focused more on AoE attacks(Eyebeasts for the win), and I can see why others would prefer not to. Though remember, that was the Bad end for that story, and hopefully one you'd realize is not the proper way to do things.

 

As for the Perfected creation level, I see that as something only the PC could do. It would explain in the later 3 titles why you're so special compared to everyone else. Heck, you could even have some people comment on how it's a special skill, to enhance what you make, that is rare for any shaper. It would explain why Lord whatshisface from the 3rd island in 3 is so willing to send a barely trained apprentice on a dangerous mission, and why the rebellion is so willing to make you their champion, when they have other lifecrafters. And in 5 it would explain why Rhawl was so focused on you, as this ability is quite powerful.

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Well in terms of games G1 and G2 have a descent storyline until, wait for it... It goes mid-late game. In G2 there is little motivation whatsoever to take on the Takers, and the taker ending isn't creative. In G1 there is little motivation and impetus given to search areas such as Freeplace or westgate, other than finding canisters or as an alternative root to trajkov although they have great story plot value. Trajkov loyal Sholai have little development at time, as if we only scratched the surface. Details of Geottsch's collaboration would have also been a nice.

 

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I had problems staying motivated in G2, I'll admit. Up until the point Shanti disappears I really didn't feel much reason to be anything other than a loyal shaper, so I obviously wanted to get my mentor back as soon as possible. The Loyalists lie to you, setting up the mess with Shanti, the Awakened lie to you, trying to get you to go in the opposite direction that Shanti was taken, and the Barzites....well we know what they are responsible for...

 

By the time I finally caught up with Shanti and confronted the Barzites, I really wasn't left with much left for a pro-shaper to do. I was far too under-leveled to take revenge, and it seemed evident that he game wanted me to join a faction to level up and progress. But the non-aligned shaper camp doesn't offer faction or quests, so I was left with the option to join a faction I had no reason to join, or leaving (and get the bad ending). Loved the game up until that point though.

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Well in terms of games G1 and G2 have a descent storyline until, wait for it... It goes mid-late game. In G2 there is little motivation whatsoever to take on the Takers, and the taker ending isn't creative. In G1 there is little motivation and impetus given to search areas such as Freeplace or westgate, other than finding canisters or as an alternative root to trajkov although they have great story plot value. Trajkov loyal Sholai have little development at time, as if we only scratched the surface. Details of Geottsch's collaboration would have also been a nice.

 

I will simply say here, I forgive game one it's world building being a bit less than perfect. While Jeff probably spent a long time on it, along with the rest, it would have been a heck of an undertaking, and most of the game still worked well. For the rest of those question, most got some explanations down the line, and while Geottsch was just insane by that point, considering some of his own lines and his ending.

 

 

I had problems staying motivated in G2, I'll admit. Up until the point Shanti disappears I really didn't feel much reason to be anything other than a loyal shaper, so I obviously wanted to get my mentor back as soon as possible. The Loyalists lie to you, setting up the mess with Shanti, the Awakened lie to you, trying to get you to go in the opposite direction that Shanti was taken, and the Barzites....well we know what they are responsible for...

 

By the time I finally caught up with Shanti and confronted the Barzites, I really wasn't left with much left for a pro-shaper to do. I was far too under-leveled to take revenge, and it seemed evident that he game wanted me to join a faction to level up and progress. But the non-aligned shaper camp doesn't offer faction or quests, so I was left with the option to join a faction I had no reason to join, or leaving (and get the bad ending). Loved the game up until that point though.

 

As for game 2....I never found this to be true. Remember, as I said above, I tended to focus on combat powers and then usually on Shaping. My standard tactic was go in, make 7 of my then best Creation, and send them in to cause havoc. If they died in battle, make more, if I ran out of Essence, or the enemies grew too close to me, run away, go to town to recover, then return and repeat. This strategy saw me through games 1-4 with little to no trouble even on Torment. Game 5 rebalanced a lot of things, especially magic and shaping, which forced me to lower the difficulty to easy.

 

Anyway, because of this, I tend to plow through maps at a fairly good clip, never risking death too much. With that in mind, I was always interested in the little things in Game 2, the touches to the world, and all the people I could talk to, as well as places to explore. Heck, the story even made my important make sense, as there were very few shapers(I counted 10+ total real shapers in the valley besides you. The three in the shaper camp, the two guys you came to meet, one or two in the wasteland settlement's keep(One might be, or might be an outsider who takes care of creations), that lady living alone in the early woods, and the botanist with her seeds, and the two working with the awakened(One in their main town, one in the research facility). Any others seem to be Canister heads instead of real shapers.)

 

I was also still motivated by hatred of the Takers from game one, and the knowledge that they seemed to be the aggressors here as well, even the Barzites were just sending probing attacks, whereas the Takers were sending full raiding parties, and in some cases they were just breaking stuff to do so, with no real thought given to it. Because of this I had plenty of reasons to want to go kill their leaders, even more when I talked to them, and found them more arrogant than any shaper I had yet met.

 

Though I will agree, probably the weakest true Ending in the series. Even endings where you'd heavily modded yourself but joined the Shapers tended to be more upbeat and less about how these jerks had lied to your face about what they were promising you.

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  • 1 month later...

Let's start with Geneforge 3 (I know, we could write a whole book about the dialogue)

 

One thing that stands out as really bad, is that Rahul will have you killed right then and there if you lie or admit to your crimes to his face. Yet, when you go to assassinate him, he merely imprisons you. The hell? He also reacts inconsistently when you lie vs. admit. When you admit your crimes, he is completely floored by this information. Yet, if you lie to him, he tells you that he knows exactly what you did via his spies.

 

I also would have liked an option to tell Litalia that she is no different than the jerk supervising her when she was an apprentice-- that her murder of the students was no different than the murder of the servilles, and that she used the exact same justification as the shapers do when killing intelligent/rebellious servilles. Then, when she becomes angered and insists that it's different because the students were all shaper monsters-in-the-making, retort with "Isn't that what you were at one point? How do you know that none of them would have joined your side if given a chance?"

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  • 3 weeks later...

My major beef with Geneforge 3, after some thought, is that it doesn't really achieve what it tries to do. In G4 and G5 the major themes of the beginning of the rebellion (which should therefore be explored in G3), according to the characters, are:

 

1. The Shapers initially lost a lot of ground due to their arrogance/inflexibility in fighting an organised enemy that could Shape (this is objectively true - the rebels are shown to be losing ground in G4, which they had to have taken from the Shapers initially)

2. The Shapers didn't care about outsiders, at least from the outsiders' point of view (G4's Zakary's anecdote about the famine in his village, G5's narrator commenting on the Hall of Appeals)

3. Creations were oppressed

 

#3 is explored in G1 and G2, and to some extent in G4 and G5, so it doesn't matter as much if it's downplayed in G3. However, while G3 tries to explore #1 and #2, it mainly does so by telling the player about them, instead of allowing you to play through them. The story suffers as a result. To break it down island by island:

 

 

Greenwood Isle starts off with someone attacking your school, which would fill most players with righteous indignation and the desire to have every rogue on the island mounted on a pike. However, later on you find that agreeing to kill rogues for a guard actually decreases reputation, and Hevvig apparently thinks the only way to get you to kill the Creator is to force you to do it. This is supposed to hint at #2, but I find this strange because Shapers' official policy is to rain death upon any abuse of Shaping, and rogues running everywhere falls straight into that. It's as if a "true Shaper" would refuse to do something that they would normally do just because outsiders asked them to do it.

 

Harmony Isle is meant to focus on #2 but is a complete railroaded mess. You cannot propose Diwaniya's solution to Lankan, even though there is no hint in Lankan's dialogue of any ulterior motive or unresolvable issue that would preclude that solution. My suggestion would be to give Lankan a plausible reason for rejecting Diwaniya's solution, or to change the conflict to one where the Shapers and rebels would logically propose different solutions, e.g. protests about the quarantine destroying the economy, or a plague that doesn't affect those who can store essence.

 

Dhonal's Island is better but still has issues. When Greiner is freed, he says that his overconfidence allowed the shade to take over before he realised what was happening. This is point #1, but it happens entirely offscreen. Also, there is nothing for a pro-rebel player to do at that point that differs from what a pro-Shaper player would do, even though the shade thing was clearly the rebels' idea. I would suggest a conflict that emphasises #1, where a pro-Shaper player would try to mitigate it (or play it up and run roughshod over everybody), while a pro-rebel player would help the rebels take advantage of it to seize ground. What you do with the Creator also doesn't feel like a major decision, compared to decisions like escort/betray the caravan or kill/repair Moseh in G4, because of the lack of investment in the island's plot in general.

 

Gull Island shows #1 in how the rebels took Stonespire, but that is, again, not something the player is involved in. It does introduce a new aspect to the Shapers vs. rebels conflict: given that people like Khyryk have been isolated from the wider Shaper community because of their beliefs, is it really possible to reform the Shapers from within? But as this island's plot is divided between that and Agatha's offscreen idiocy and the fall of Stonespire, nothing really comes of either thread.

 

Isle of Spears is a straightforward slugfest.

 

 

To me, the conflicts of G3 should feel like things that could be turned into soundbites by the Shapers and the rebels (e.g. "Remember Greenwood Academy!" "When I was on Harmony Isle the Shapers left us to die!") but for that to work the conflicts have to be engaging and tie into their issues with each other, which... they don't.

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Hevvig has every reason to force you to fix the rogue problem. Remember, your objective is to speak to Lord Rahul ASAP. A true shaper would not bother to clean up the rogues until receiving orders from Lord Rahul. Especially not for a bunch of outsiders. This is pretty obvious when the most shaper-worthy responses is to demand immediate access to the boat. And as an outsider, Hevvig has zero right to order you to stop the rogues.

 

Harmony Isle is not a railroaded mess. Diwaniya orders you to deal with the rogues and not to get involved with the rebels. He basically comes across as "this is between me and the rebels, so stay out of it!" I am in the minority in that I see zero problem with the Lankan subplot-- both sides have every right to be pissed off here, and there's no solution for either. The gatherers are obligated to gather herbs that fuel essence which Shaper civilization depends on. At the same time, the shapers are obligated to protect the gatherers. Unfortunately, neither party is able to fulfill their obligations here. Thankfully, unlike Dhonal and Gull islands, you can stay neutral here by heeding the warning of your hot-headed superior.

 

 

Your point about Kryryk-- he is not isolated. He is constantly spied upon by Rahul and probably Agatha as well, we know this from Sharon in G2.

 

I think the main flaw of G3 is that it fails in depicting its primary theme-- that you're forced to choose a side in a war. It doesn't feel like a war. Not even on Dhonal Isle, since 1. the number of soldiers and rogues in any region is very small (increasing the size would be a pain in the ass of course, akin to the cryoa in the Besieged Camp) 2. They're not necessary in order to clear the area (and frankly, why would you even want to? Less experience for you) Outside of that, you do everything yourself aside from when you're forced to perform fetch quests in order to reach the next island.

 

It would also feel more realistic if there were more human highwaymen on Dhonal Isle, often teamed up with the rebel servilles. We only see that one mage in the pass. We see colonies of human outlaws on both Greenwood and Harmony Isles-- we even see a human rebel or two on Gull Island. Yet we only see two on the entirety of Dhonal Isle? That environment if ripe for the stereotypical highwaymen lurking in the untamed wilderness-- of course there are plenty of thieves and soldiers of fortune who would leap at the opportunity to exploit the lawless situation to make a buck. Instead they're almost universally dead by the time you find them. Seems that plenty of these types could be bribed by rebel servilles, right? Instead all we see are mages and rogue shapers being bribed by Litalia directly.

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The third island, Dhonal Island, has a high concentration of Shapers even if they are mostly in the towns. All the other islands have lower numbers after the massacre at the Academy. This leads to abandonment of most of the islands to lawlessness.

 

You still have choices in helping one side or the other, but the Rebel choices are less clear and mostly involve getting items or sabotage until you reach the final choice for Dhonal Island.

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Hevvig has every reason to force you to fix the rogue problem. Remember, your objective is to speak to Lord Rahul ASAP. A true shaper would not bother to clean up the rogues until receiving orders from Lord Rahul. Especially not for a bunch of outsiders.

 

Really?

 

South End merchants: You could use your mighty Shaper powers to clear the area.

Player: Money + XP? RAWR PLAYER SMASH PUNY ROGUES

PC: I've cleared out those rogues for you.

 

Fort Kentia merchant: You could use your mighty Shaper powers to clear my basement.

Player: Money + XP? RAWR PLAYER SMASH PUNY ROGUES

PC: I've cleared out those rogues for you.

 

Hevvig: You should use your mighty Shaper powers to help us clear the island.

PC: How dare you tell a Shaper what to do!

 

Story-wise, why is it okay for a Shaper to bother with rogues in the first two cases, but not the third? Meta-wise, did anybody actually think this way when they played the game?

 

Diwaniya orders you to deal with the rogues and not to get involved with the rebels.

 

This is not a good reason for the game to keep you from telling the rebels his plan, as Norrell asks you to convince them to surrender. A die-hard Shaper player might not want to do it, but since the game asks you, through Norrell, to try negotiation, it should be an option.

 

 

 

Your point about Kryryk-- he is not isolated. He is constantly spied upon by Rahul and probably Agatha as well, we know this from Sharon in G2.

That is isolation - they can spy on him but he doesn't have any connections to the wider Shaper society that could be infected with his ungoodthink.

 

You still have choices in helping one side or the other, but the Rebel choices are less clear and mostly involve getting items or sabotage until you reach the final choice for Dhonal Island.

The choices also don't occur in the places you expect them to. Using Greiner's quest as an example, I'd expect the rebels to ask you to press their advantage, but they don't say anything and you end up always doing what the Shapers want, for that quest.

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Using Greiner's quest as an example, I'd expect the rebels to ask you to press their advantage, but they don't say anything and you end up always doing what the Shapers want, for that quest.

Actually, the rebel servile that approaches you on Dhonal's Isle explicitly tells you to do whatever it takes, even helping the Shapers, to reach and repair the Creator. Everything else isn't as important.
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Fair enough. I'd still prefer an explicitly opposing option, like how Shaper/rebel conflicts tended to be in G4, but that becomes a matter of personal taste more than illogic.

 

(Although I'm not sure how the rebels got themselves into this situation where you have to undo their efforts on other fronts to do what they want you to do...)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Is it ever mentioned how/why exactly Agents and Guardians acquire the appearance that they do? The Guardian PC shown on the item menu has glowing green eyes (despite that this is not normal for shapers?) and the agents, of course, have always had oddly tinged skin (which I seriously doubt is just camo makeup or something like that)

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