I hate towns

[Rya.Reisender]

I wanted to express something that I've felt quite for a while and it is especially strong in Spiderweb games: I hate towns in RPGs.

 

I like all the others aspects of RPGs. Exploring the world, exploring all the dungeons, feeling of adventure, the strategical combat, the feeling that you are doing something meaningful. But whenever I reach the next town I feel like quitting the game.

 

The reason for that is: Towns have NPCs, lots of them. Reaching a town basically means you won't have any adventure or dungeon exploration or combat the next 30 minutes. No, instead you feel forced to talk with every NPC in town. You might miss something if you don't after all! You want to go throw all the possible dialogue options too so that means not just talking to each NPC once and he tells you 1-2 lines and then you're done. No, you're busy several minutes clicking through different dialogues. It's so much text, so much reading, oh god no.

 

But I can't just drop it, the other aspects of an RPG are so much fun that I go through all this torture and pain every time I reach a town. But slowly I really started to hate towns. Why do towns even exist. Why can't they just all burn down, leaving only one NPC left alive. Die towns, die!!!

 

It's not that I have something against story or dialogues in general. If I met that one NPC in a hut in a forest, I actually enjoy talking with him. I'm curious how he ended up there and what he is doing there and if he needs any help. This works well because it's only one NPC and I'm done with him in 3 minutes and then can continue exploring said forest. But in towns there are so many talkative NPCs at once and it completely destroys the balance that I need to be happy. Even if there is a surprise evil rat in the cellar attack, it doesn't really balance it out, it's just too long without much adventure and exploration.

 

So... now I said it.

[Alorael at Large]

That's a reasonable opinion, and probably not a terribly unusual one. I have a friend who steadfastly refuses to read any dialogue in RPGs. She plays them, but with great trouble, because in many it's really, really hard to figure out what's going on, or even the basics of what you're doing, without receiving any input from NPCs. In any event, you're within your rights to dislike towns, and there are certainly RPGs, especially action-RPGs, that cater to minimization of town-time. But they may minimize it too much for you, so maybe you just largely can't win with the games on the market. What strikes you as having the closest to ideal balance of town to adventure?

 

—Alorael, who personally really likes towns. It's dungeons that he often finds uninteresting. Combat is fine, but he likes it separated by large swathes of exploration and talking. He'd rather talk to the people and see the sights and think about the world that has been built for a while before slaughtering things. It's all a matter of taste.

[Rya.Reisender]

Dunno, I never really liked towns except for the old Mega Drive (Genesis) RPGs (Phantasy Star I-IV, Wonder Boy In Monster World, etc.) I grew up with, because they have a very minimalistic way of writing dialogue (one that converts as much information as possible in as few lines as possible). I'd really like to see this brought back. Or just complete removal of towns (why not imagine a world that doesn't have towns? RPGs don't have to represent the real world). Dungeon crawlers (not randomized ones but those with a real story and exploration and stuff) do pretty well converting a story without much text but with a lot of exploration.

[adc.]

I felt the same way too, but in MMORPGs, the one where you have to accept all their quests and do them all at the same time. And get rewarded and stuff. Feels more like a chore than adventure itself. Still, the rewards are quite worth it.

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-Nightwatcher

[Questionably Legal]

But without towns, where would my post-game party raze, pillage and massacre?

 

 

But seriously, why are you playing a game with a deep involved story like SW's if you hate text?

[stranger]

Maybe you would like Diablo more than Baldur's Gate? This is a difference in genres for sure. Not all RPGs require much dialogue or linear plot.

[Lilith]

Dunno, I never really liked towns except for the old Mega Drive (Genesis) RPGs (Phantasy Star I-IV, Wonder Boy In Monster World, etc.) I grew up with, because they have a very minimalistic way of writing dialogue (one that converts as much information as possible in as few lines as possible). I'd really like to see this brought back. Or just complete removal of towns (why not imagine a world that doesn't have towns? RPGs don't have to represent the real world). Dungeon crawlers (not randomized ones but those with a real story and exploration and stuff) do pretty well converting a story without much text but with a lot of exploration.

 

I get where you're coming from. I have moods where I'm happy to explore every branch of every NPC's dialogue tree and then I have moods where I'd really just rather fight giant toads and drink mysterious liquids out of barrels.

 

You might enjoy some of the more old-school dungeon-crawler-esque RPG series from the 80s and early 90s like Wizardry, Might and Magic, and Bard's Tale, where "towns" were often really just dungeon levels that happened to contain a few shops and quest-givers. (The one big outlier is the Ultima series, which had dialogue-heavy, action-light towns ever since Ultima IV back in 1985.) Normally I'd be wary about recommending some of those games on account of their potentially frustrating difficulty, but if you've played and finished the first two Phantasy Star games then I think you can handle them.

 

speaking of which, eeeee you grew up on the same console rpgs i did

[Jerakeen]

I get where you're coming from. I have moods where I'm happy to explore every branch of every NPC's dialogue tree and then I have moods where I'd really just rather fight giant toads and drink mysterious liquids out of barrels.

That is so weird because every Saturday I fight giant barrels and drink mysterious liquids out of toads.*

Edited February 1, 2014 by Jerakeen
*not necessarily in that order

[Student of Trinity]

drink mysterious liquids out of barrels.

Mmmm, liquids.

[Slawbug]

I'll second Lilith's suggestions. But if you want something even closer to the games you grew up with, there's a HUGE trove of RPG's on other old consoles (especially the SNES) that are now easy to play on a computer. It's likely that you've already gone through those, but if you haven't, that's the first place I'd look. That's where you're going to find the style of town, of single-message dialogue, you're looking for.

[Prince of Kitties]

I happen to love towns, and interacting with NPCs. Especially when they're done well. It makes me feel like I'm exploring a world, not just playing a game. This is one of the things I loved about Alcritas' and Stareye's BoE scenarios, they felt *immersive*.

 

Also there's a certain high-contrast thrill to being an "adventurer" doing adventurish things, and then going back to town and doing something completely normal.

 

("Yeah, I was in a cave all day massacring cultists. Work's been tough lately. I'll take the chili and a Bud Lite, thanks.")

[Rya.Reisender]

But seriously, why are you playing a game with a deep involved story like SW's if you hate text?

As stated in the opening post, I love the feeling of exploration and adventure and both are pretty amazing in Spiderweb games.

 

 

Also I'm not really looking for game suggestions, you can be sure that I've played basically all of them already. I really just wanted to express that feeling that everytime I reach a town I feel bad (and maybe see if anyone else understands that feeling).

[Goldengirl]

Well, isn't hating towns one of the major themes of the Avernum games? The sharp contrast between the attempts to create security and order in the towns of Avernum and the fundamental chaos and wild magic of Exile is the source of many of the problems in the games. The philosophy of civilization, trying to establish a home and stability, is incompatible with the caves of Exile and with the figure of the exile, the wandering one with no home. This is highlighted by the juxtaposition between the Avernites, who try to establish a permanent and stable kingdom, and the Vahnatai, who allow the caves to have their discord and danger. And it is not the powers of order and civilization that conquer Exile and save it for the Kingdom of Avernum; the best resources of Avernum are often flummoxed, leaving the wandering adventurers who survey the frontier to save the civilization. These adventurers are helped buoyed by the hermits and those that reject the fundamental thesis of order and stability offered by towns, figures like Erike Redmark who were spurned multiple times by the politics of civilization as esoteric and eccentric and therefore dangerous. But these solutions are always temporary, and in the end always unsustainable as the hermits and adventurers who save Avernum themselves are destroyed or assimilated into its civilizing project. For instance, Solberg loses his edge and grittiness by the last game as he lives complacently in the Great Cave, and Starrus ascends to the throne not the warrior king his father was but a politician from birth. Even the towns themselves become the direct symbol of this process for a time, as the Council takes over the Kingdom for a time and creates a functional republic, miring Avernum in bitter politics that is not practical in the rough context of the imminent threats that loomed. In the end, the civilization and towns are shown to be unsustainable as the Kingdom cannot defend itself against the wild threats that always brimmed at the periphery (e.g. the Slithzerikai) and the danger of the Caves themselves, the Blight. The destruction of the towns as the fundamental thesis of Avernum, and the restoration of the philosophy of the exile who has no home, who has no stability, and who accepts chaos as the ordering of life, then, is the resolution of this conflict of forces at the end of the Avernum saga. The Surface may be civilized, but chaos reigns supreme in Exile. There may be true citizens on the Surface, but in the Caves there can only be exiles.

[Edgwyn]

Towns are necessary to the stories, which are the strengths of Spiderweb's games. Part of the way that I choose to enjoy the Spiderweb games are with the Randomizer/Synegizer lists and hint guides. It is pretty easy to figure out who I need to talk to that way and especially, who I need to return to. I find the first visit to any town enjoyable from an exploration aspect (mostly finding out what stores there are plus any secret rooms), but I do not want to have to click on every NPC in the town to figure out which ones are worth talking to. Color coding would work well I suppose. I realize that having a bunch of inhabitants with nothing useful to the PC adds to the realism, but I find it more fun if I don't have to talk to them all.

 

The early wizardry games were great because the only town dialogue was purchasing supplies. That said, the rest of the plot was really simplistic. I enjoy the story building and quests from the Spiderweb games more than "kill werdna he is bad" or "find super cool suit of armor" being the entire detailed plot of the game.

[Rya.Reisender]

I don't think towns are necessary to tell a great story at all. In theory Jeff could make use of his amazing writing styles even in a world that didn't have any. No towns doesn't mean no dialogues after all, it just means no spot with a lot of dialogues focused on one spot.

 

Part of the way that I choose to enjoy the Spiderweb games are with the Randomizer/Synegizer lists and hint guides. It is pretty easy to figure out who I need to talk to that way and especially, who I need to return to.

Okay but if you say you enjoy the games most by using a guide, doesn't that mean it's a flaw within the game itself?

[Khoth]

RPGs need towns, because they're by far the best place to set NPCs on fire

[Alorael at Large]

I don't think towns are necessary to tell a great story at all. In theory Jeff could make use of his amazing writing styles even in a world that didn't have any. No towns doesn't mean no dialogues after all, it just means no spot with a lot of dialogues focused on one spot.

This is somewhat true. As I say endlessly, I think two of the best sequences in Spiderweb games are A2's Dark Waters and A5's Howling Depths, which are all about moving through hostile environments and not at all about people. But I do think that that sort of game is very different. For the kinds of plots Jeff likes, particularly now, when he's been working on heavily faction-driven games, you need people. And the easiest way to have lots of people is towns.

 

Okay but if you say you enjoy the games most by using a guide, doesn't that mean it's a flaw within the game itself?

No. People enjoy games different ways. Some people want walkthroughs and play for completionism. Or they just hate puzzles or wandering. Some people like the plot but don't really enjoy the challenge and are happy to use cheats; that doesn't mean the game's balance is off. And some people love a challenge, crank the difficulty all the way up, and decide to do a singleton, no magic, only red items playthrough. We all enjoy games differently and there's no judgment inherent in that.

 

—Alorael, who hasn't had to give his pro-cheating manifesto in a long time. But cheating is great. Definitely cheat if it helps you enjoy the game more. Games are for fun and do whatever makes them most fun for you! There are no game wrongfun police.

[Kelandon]

As I say endlessly, I think two of the best sequences in Spiderweb games are A2's Dark Waters and A5's Howling Depths, which are all about moving through hostile environments and not at all about people.

Now that you've said this, it occurs to me that I can't recall a single moment of plot that had the kind of impact that elaborately scripted combat/hostile territory sequences had for me. A6's Solberg sequence. Avadon 1's endgame (in Avadon). A2's Ornotha Ziggurat. Maybe using the Geneforge in GF1. Maybe taking down the three drakons at the end of GF2. Maybe the final battle in GF5.

 

I suppose there's a difference between hostile territory sequences (A2's Dark Waters, GF1's opening) and pure combat sequences (A2's Ornotha Ziggurat), in that the latter are about the coolness of the combat per se, whereas the former are more about the atmosphere, which ultimately is the writing more than anything else.

 

But I can't recall a particular twist, or joke, or snippet of really intense writing — at least outside of combat — that really got me. I was all set for Avadon 2's kiss to be that moment, and it wasn't. I suspect that Avadon 1's Miranda betrayal was supposed to be that moment, too, or A5's Cienna betrayal, but — for some reason — neither was.

 

So none of the most exciting stuff happened in friendly towns. Maybe the most memorable friendly towns were at the end of Dark Waters in A2, in vahnatai lands, because the vahnatai were so cool.

[Student of Trinity]

What would it take to make a more memorable town?

[Edgwyn]

I believe that the answer is going to be different for each person. I want a relatively simple town with few inhabitants that provides memories by advancing the plot. One way to make a town memorable would be an emotional reward for the player that has completed multiple quests (What if in Avadon 1 when you really wanted to be a hand, you were rewarded partway through the game with your promotion to hand instead of it happening for showing up). Another way would be to build an emotional bond between the player and a NPC in the town through repeated visits and then have the NPC have a significant emotional event (positive or negative) (I am hoping for such in Avadon 3 with Polus).

[Kelandon]

What would it take to make a more memorable town?

Well, like I said, I was expecting Avadon 2's kiss to be a really intense moment in a then-friendly town, but it fell flat. As I've discussed elsewhere, I think the reason for that was that the writing was overly timid. So I think the first thing to make towns memorable is strong writing.

 

Generally I think the idea would be to make towns not just the standing places for Bobs, but places where interesting things actually happen. Less exposition, more action. This could take any of a million forms that don't involve combat: romance, an election (as in the BoE scenario The Election, one of my favorites), a trial, a court intrigue of some sort, etc.

[Cairo Jim]

I quite liked towns, I found they were useful, and memorable if there were interesting characters. The most memorable for me though was clearing out dungeons in E3 to the point when there were no more monster spawns. Then I got a whole entire dungeon to myself, and it was mine.

[shoopypit]

i think the perfect amount of npc's in towns is in demons souls. sure its not really a "town", but its easier for me to remember them, and since you go back to the nexus whenever you want you can talk with them at your lesuire. leisure. however you spell it. i grammar good. anyways, like in Avadon 2 i have to keep looking at my quest list to remember where to go to talk to people when i finish said quest. and like the OP said ill spend like a gd hour talking to everyone there. (personally i think the maps are too large in the avadon series overall, but thats a different discussion)

[Kelandon]

(personally i think the maps are too large in the avadon series overall, but thats a different discussion)

This bothered me a lot in Avadon 1. I spent a lot of time wandering through towns trying to figure who to talk to and who didn't matter, because the towns were enormous. It made the towns less effective for me. It didn't bother me in Avadon 2, though, maybe because Jeff did a better job with the map markings this time.

[Slawbug]

Yeah, I think that was one of the biggest improvements in Avadon 2, actually -- the maps felt less full of dead, empty space.

[Gerry Quinn]

For me it's the annoyance of having to remember where everybody is. I think I would actually like the game to record everyone I met in a town, and give me a menu option of "Visit Joe (Captain of the Guards)", "Visit Sam (Armour Shop)" etc. The game would then auto-zoom me to that person.

 

Not very atmospheric... but darned convenient, I'd say!

[Valdain the King]

I hate puzzles in Rpgs. I really do. They are the bane of my existence or something like that. When they put a puzzle into a combat situation that is cool and might even make sense. When they put puzzles in a rpg outside of combat-Hello! Does not make sense. It not only holds the gamer up but it detracts from the game. On top of that if you liked one or even two of them, they get old after that-and real fast.

[Balladeer]

Some people want walkthroughs and play for completionism.

 

*Raises hand*

 

I used to like the challenge and I used to like figuring out puzzles, but I don't have all day to spend playing anymore. If a section of a game starts taking too long I feel like I'm wasting time that could be better spent. If Nethergate hadn't had a way to cheat through the character editor I wouldn't have played it. The faster I can get through the story of an RPG the better I like it now. Mmmmmm... Minimalism.

[Jerakeen]

When they put puzzles in a rpg outside of combat-Hello! Does not make sense.

I get that you don't like puzzles -- hey, some people do, some don't, it's a matter of taste (for those who don't there's always Google). But what do you mean when you say it doesn't make sense? How does it make less sense than killing mythical monsters with a magic mace? Or whatever.

[Level 1 Hermit]

Wow personally I love the towns. There's so many nooks and crannies you can explore. Maybe you find a secret passage or there's a way you can sneak into the enemy base. Even the NPCs are sometimes hilarious. Each has their own thing to add so you can learn more about the area or just what kind of alignment the person is with. But then there are SO many quest givers I just go crazy. Esp since some quests CAN'T be completed. Geneforge mainly has the ups tho

[adc.]

If a section of a game starts taking too long I feel like I'm wasting time that could be better spent.

 

I completely agree. And I play games for completionism, because that's the whole point of the game, not only the main quests, but also the side quests, so I can grind out every juice of it.

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-Nightwatcher