Features You'd Want In Geneforge Remakes

[ThricebornPhoenix]

I think it would be interesting if we had a way of monetarily investing in our creations, and using some of that spare loot we acquire to outfit them.

One problem with this is that you don't have enough spare loot to monetarily invest in your own character in the current series. I don't think there's a single Geneforge game in which you can afford half of the potential training (except the first, which doesn't have trainers), and with cash so tight I never even considered buying anything from a shop unless I was really low on living tools.

 

Another (somewhat situational) problem is that fresh creations in the field would be particularly weak and vulnerable, unless you decide to lug around a bunch of creation-useable gear just in case. After all, if creations can use equipment, game balance must include that factor.

 

One thing that I really like about Geneforge compared to Avernum is the lower mental overhead - I don't need to juggle a thousand variables, only a few hundred, and that makes them much easier to remember. Creations being very low maintenance compared to full fledged party members is a large part of that.

[Hyena of Ice]

^^True. The monetary adjustment, esp, in G3 with Alwan and Greta as full characters, would have to be there so that instead you can only afford half the training for the combined three plus creations. This also means that for that reason and having two more characters, G3 would also need to have more equipment lying around-- granted, one can make due with the amount of mundane equipment already in the game, but more magical equipment and forge materials (minus artifact components which IMO should remain the same) would be needed.

Then if you consider the possibility of having battle techniques/disciplines like Avernum and Avadon for non-creation characters, in the Geneforge series those would likely have levels and be trainable, as well, just like spells (or that's the way I would prefer it anyhow)

Though if we wanted to keep the stats simple, then a skill tree would be out of the question-- even though the ones I came up with were much more limited and combat/Guardian-oriented (granted, some I came up with were also fic-specific, as in they'd have no actual in-game use, such as the crafting skill (which in my fic is used primarily for repair work or replacing regular leather armor straps with like-- fyoraskin ones-- which doesn't actually confer any protection to the wearer, it just makes the straps more resistant to damage.)

 

Otherwise, these are the ones I came up with:

--Riposte: obvious

--Energy Preservation: (unless the remakes implemented the G4/5 EP characteristic from equipment) Uses 2.5% (rounded down) less SP per level, simple as that, no advanced math involved. Unlike the item mod, the percentage would be 50 or 100%, I would hope at least. So at 10 maxed out ranks, it would use 1/4th less SP-- so a 40 sp spell would instead cost 30 sp. Most won't get it to 10 ranks since the base cost FOR AN AGENT is the same as Spellcraft (3) Would require something like 6 of all magic skills + 4 or 6 healing craft (not too steep for most games since there are books and trainers abound)

--Essence Preservation (needs a different name) (reduces EP cost of creations-- 3% reduction per rank of Essense Preservation. requirements would have to be incredibly steep so that it's only obtainable late in the game or even at all unless you optimize the character (thus making it only available to Shapers and Lifecrafters)-- like, it would require 6 spellcraft + 7 or 8 Fire shaping, + 7 or 8 Battle shaping + 6 or 8 INT, and 10 magic shaping.)

--Mirror Shield (chance to reflect ranged fire/cold/energy/poison/acid attacks back on the attacker-- of limited usefulness, obviously and probably not worth putting in the game)

--Deflect: parry attack against an ally within 2 spaces (or maybe 3?)

--Dual Wielding: obvious

--then I could also see Anatomy being one.

Then again, with the exception of Anatomy (and Dual Wielding, sorta), all of these have unique effects rather than adding an additional modifier to basic stats, so it would still keep the modifiers simple.

 

 

Another (somewhat situational) problem is that fresh creations in the field would be particularly weak and vulnerable, unless you decide to lug around a bunch of creation-useable gear just in case. After all, if creations can use equipment, game balance must include that factor.

Indeed. Though to be fair, my idea is that they can only equip accessories-- with only 1 or two equipment slots (so no armor of any kind). Excepting late into the game (well, in G2 and G3 anyway), accessories don't boost stats by all that much. The most useful items for them until you can get the Infiltrator's or Avenger's ring would be mind-resistance boosting collars, and none of the gear would be creation-only equipment (e.g. your character can equip collars into the ring slot like creations, though it would be pointless to do so) So lugging around extra accessories is less of an issue when you can use them, too, and up until I get the infiltrator's ring, I always lug the resistance-boosting rings (which I always augment with a crystal of the same element, thus boosting resistance by 5) with me (minus ivory band-- Mica band is superior in every way)

[Forget it]

Geneforge is perfect. Improve GUI and tileset. Nothing else.

[dse6223]

I know I wouldn't want the skill tree system like in Avadon and the new Avernum. I like the customization possibilities of the "old" skill system and frankly few games offer that these days.

 

What I would like to see is some more skills added, perhaps a general "shaping" skill, or "anatomy", "riposte", or "bartering". I guess either an expanded general skills category or a new one entirely.

 

That brings me to the next point; guardian specific abilities. The agent has her magic and the shaper his creations, but the guardian doesn't have his own cool thing. There are no disciplines like in Avernum, and that feels lacking.

 

Another thing I'd love to see is some way to get extra inventory space. Whether that be a junk bag, pack ornks or creation inventory, this would be a wonderful thing. Trudging back and forth five times to sell all that loot is not a pleasant part of an otherwise wonderful game.

 

The second last feature I'll mention is for the NPCs who join the party to have armor and weapons, and maybe/i basic skills trainable (like giving Greta + 1 to spellcasting).

 

And for the end; for creations to earn xp based on the level of the creation, not the PC. This is somewhat of an irritant midway through playing, especially in G3 (for me at least).

 

To sum it up: no skill tree, more skills, battle disciplines or similar stuff, extra inventory, more customizable party NPCs and creations getting xp separately from the player.

 

I know these things can be difficult and ultimately Jeff decides on what to add so I really don't expect all of that. Any one thing would be nice.

[Dear Potato]

What I would love to see, as in any other hypothetical new spiderweb game, is a real OST. That would be just awesome.

 

As for specific Geneforge things... let me see:

 

- More agile battles that do not rely on high HP bosses/enemies.

- I'd love to see leadership and mechanics still present, I really liked them, but adding a general skill that complements the "infiltrator" role; I've always longed for a "walk in the shadows" or stealth skill.

- One creation, unique, attached to every particular class. That way, the general idea behind shapers would fit better in the class division; Shapers, agents and guardians could have a particular creation, cheap to them, that benefits from their role, apart from the usual cast of creations avalaible for everyone.

[Hyena of Ice]

I really don't want to see a full OST, and I hope Jeff would not be deluded enough to consider it (no offense intended to Jeff-- I highly doubt he would consider it in the first place)

Problem with OSTs is that you can't please everyone, plus from what we've seen of the games using the newer engine/tech (A6, Avadons, and the A1/2 remakes), the music in there is all too similar-- choir music with some bells and other instrumentals-- the only one that greatly impresses me is the A2 remake's opening, I love it and it inspires G3 fanfic scenes in my head (mainly when Alwan is healed and later when the group gears up to take down the syndicate that tried to kill them).

To be sure, I don't want to see G3's opening theme redone this way-- I think it's perfect all 16-bit techno-ish as it is save that I wish it was a full tune and not just a short jingle

 

A full OST-- I have not seen anyone or too many here suggest it and I think it would be a bad idea in general. First off, I think it would be a lot of work for Jeff or whoever makes those opening themes in the newer games.

Second, they'd have to come up with songs that are most likely to appeal to almost everyone. Third, they'd have to figure out how to balance music and sound in a way that the music does not interfere with crucial sound effects. Finally, they'd have to be careful not to pick an unfitting song for the scene-- unless Jeff can script songs to change during certain cut scenes or dialogues, this is not going to work. Imagine in G3 the music not changing from the field music when you meet Litalia at the South End or at the Spire Docks. Then of course there are times when silence really is more fitting for the scene with some ambient drips really is more fitting for the scene than music. (Themesongs that play when you talk to certain characters would be pretty cool, I have to admit, but I'd rather not see it.)

 

Anyhow, so far, this is what I've seen almost everyone request or agree upon:

--Auto-remove failed or closed quests from quest list

--Treat Alwan and Greta as full characters rather than creations in G3

--Allow the use of disciplines similar to Avernum-- either for Guardians alone or for everyone, but using the same rules as magic and shaping (in this case, disciplines being trainable techniques like spells, requiring points of combat skills to use/make more powerful)

--NPCs and creations gain XP based on their own level rather than the player's (e.g. let's say your Fyora is lv 12 and you're lv 18-- the Fyora should gain XP as a level 12 character rather than a lv 18 character)

--Either a junk bag or pack-mule creations which can be sent back to town to sell or store loot, and do not require high-levels of shaping.

 

Not mentioned by many, but presumably supported by nearly everyone

--Gender options for every class (e.g. choose to make your guardian/Agent/etc. either male or female rather than being stuck with male guardians, female infiltrators, etc.)

 

Up to debate, probably supported by most but not high on the list for those who have not mentioned it

--Fully optional romance options in G3, which you choose to either enable or disable at the start of the game, along with ability to enable or disable possible same sex romance options (possibly even allowing a difficult-to-achieve love-triangle outcome that some torment-level-players might covet for the challenge >_>)

--Optional augmentation bonuses for creations after they gain/reach x number of levels, possibly via special items similar to forging

--Stealth skill of some type

--Creations with non-combat and/or non-attack purposes. (d'ornkies as pack mules you can send back to town to sell or store your loot, a small bat-like, firefly-like, or moth-like creation that sheds light, a creation that auto-buffs anyone friendly characters standing within x number of spaces near it, etc.)

 

Controversial

--Newer "non-equipped items are weightless" rules vs everything has weight as per the original series (personally I don't like the idea of Geneforge remakes implementing the newer "only equippables have weight" system)

--Equippable items for creations with limits (e.g. humanoid creations may be able to equip weapons and armor, non-humanoid creations only have one or two accessory slots)

 

And, ones I want to see that nobody else has mentioned:

--Monster and item encyclopedias as per a lot of the JRPGs out there like Castlevania-- entry becomes unlocked once you put the item in your inventory for the first time, or once you kill x number of the monster. Monster encyclopedia includes item drops (unlocked on list once at least one of your kills has dropped that particular item) and weakness/strengths.

 

--Ability to talk in a non-intrusive way to party members (even creations). (e.g. right click a character to see their HP/friendliness, with text saying "right click again to talk". Creations are just for fun, while Alwan and Greta engage in dialogue-- secret dialogues possible in certain regions or certain rooms of said regions, before or after certain events-- e.g. after killing the drayk with worms in the Crumbling Lab) Creations would get responses like grunts or growls most of the time, with possible stuff like "Fyora snaps at a crossing butterfly" or "Thahd drools blankly at you"

 

--Something that I cannot imagine that most of you here would not want as well--

ABILITY TO MARK PLACES ON THE MAP. Preferably by using the cursor as a stylus, but if that it impossible, then with little icon/sprite stamps (like-- you get to choose from a tiny treasure chest, speech bubble, crossed swords, pouch, etc. You can go back and erase/remove the mark later). Most useful for remembering where the locked chests are. Sure, I should probably just write it down on scrap paper, but I never remember to. We all want this, right?

[Lilith]

--NPCs and creations gain XP based on their own level rather than the player's (e.g. let's say your Fyora is lv 12 and you're lv 18-- the Fyora should gain XP as a level 12 character rather than a lv 18 character)

 

Would this really be a good thing? In practice, creations usually heavily outlevel the player character, so this would make them all level much more slowly: It seems like it'd mean players have no reason to keep creations alive instead of treating them as disposable.

[Meri20098]

I want to be able to use the arrow keys to move around instead of point and click. It's one of my biggest irritations

[priumcyaes]

Gotta agree with the whole "no full OST, please". Regarding old memories I have of playing the earlier games (a while back, really), one of the things I remembered was how the minimal sound did a good job setting the mood. Take, for example, the almost eerie background noise in the marshes of Harmony Island (GF3). The sound there did a good job of indicating the desolation of the marsh, the abandon to rogues, and the fact that something was very wrong with the island itself. Then again, people seem to be divided on the "music or no music" thing.

 

Pretty much agree with Hyena of Ice's list.

[Dear Potato]

It amazes me how many people seems completely opposed to music in Spiderweb games in this forum ._. It always has been a big issue for me.

 

One thing to note, though, it's that in the very unlikely case an OST is released, it would be completely optional. It would be weird not to include an option to mute it. That way everyone would be happy.

[Slawbug]

The music that came with Exile II was amazingly fitting, despite being a single looping MOD file. I think it contributed a lot to my love of the game, even though I didn't always keep it on.

 

I found out a year or two ago, to my surprise, that it was originally from an Amiga Dune game. Best track in the game though, like most Amiga games, it had great music all the way through.

[Hyena of Ice]

I want to be able to use the arrow keys to move around instead of point and click. It's one of my biggest irritations

Yeah, let's have an option in the settings menu to choose specific settings for panning and walking, like in some of the newer gqames.

 

It amazes me how many people seems completely opposed to music in Spiderweb games in this forum ._. It always has been a big issue for me.

One thing to note, though, it's that in the very unlikely case an OST is released, it would be completely optional. It would be weird not to include an option to mute it. That way everyone would be happy.

If you want music during the game, then just fire up your music playing software with your choice instrumental. I've done it before. Or do like me and hum your choice of videogame tunes while playing. Unless you can't sing worth a broken chitrach husk piece, that is.

I think making an OST might be an awful lot of work for Jeff for something that only a minority of fans want-- a lot of the background sounds you hear are public domain sounds just like the death screams in earlier games. (seriously, I hear the monster screeches/etc. track in all sorts of low-budget shows) AFAIK, the opening themes for his games are the only sounds he makes himself.

 

Also, let's be honest about the ONE shortcoming of the current background tracks-- they sometimes fit poorly once you've cleared a place out (mainly the monster howling that I mentioned above, and hostile towns. The rest fit just fine.). It's not a significant issue, however, just being upfront and honest. Which brings up another point-- whatever negative effect this has on the games now, it will only be far worse with an OST. The OST would also interfere with the atmosphere of certain special encounters. Or let's take Dhonal Inner Keep for example-- the theme that would be appropriate for Lord Rahul and his throneroom would not be appropriate when you're sneaking around their personal quarters. Then, of course, what about battle music? Would Jeff be able to script the game to change themes when you're in and out of battle?

[Dear Potato]

If you want music during the game, then just fire up your music playing software with your choice instrumental. I've done it before. Or do like me and hum your choice of videogame tunes while playing. Unless you can't sing worth a broken chitrach husk piece, that is.

I think making an OST might be an awful lot of work for Jeff for something that only a minority of fans want-- a lot of the background sounds you hear are public domain sounds just like the death screams in earlier games. (seriously, I hear the monster screeches/etc. track in all sorts of low-budget shows) AFAIK, the opening themes for his games are the only sounds he makes himself.

 

I already use music outside the game. It does not work. It's just a poor alternative.

I'm perfectly aware that an OST would be a resource demanding feature. I know it's very unlikely that something like that happens. Nonetheless, it's a big issue for me, something that I really miss out from SPDW games. It was not the point of this thread to talk about things we would want to see in future Geneforge games? Jeff doesn't even read this forums. I just shout a particular wish from me, not expecting to be fulfilled or something. Just to add to the conversation.

 

Also, let's be honest about the ONE shortcoming of the current background tracks-- they sometimes fit poorly once you've cleared a place out (mainly the monster howling that I mentioned above, and hostile towns. The rest fit just fine.). It's not a significant issue, however, just being upfront and honest. Which brings up another point-- whatever negative effect this has on the games now, it will only be far worse with an OST. The OST would also interfere with the atmosphere of certain special encounters. Or let's take Dhonal Inner Keep for example-- the theme that would be appropriate for Lord Rahul and his throneroom would not be appropriate when you're sneaking around their personal quarters. Then, of course, what about battle music? Would Jeff be able to script the game to change themes when you're in and out of battle?

 

As I said before, in the unlikely case that Jeff adds an OST in the future, it would not be mandatory. As the background, you would be able to deactivate it. The contrary would be weird. So, if that's the case, none of these concerns matter.

 

I don't know for sure if he would be able to code battle music. I believe he could, if he wanted to. I always thought the OST absence is just a personal decision. I must say, by the way, if there is a moment in the game I really miss music, is in battle. Personally, I think good battle music brings rpg games to another level.

[Spukrian]

- I'd love to see leadership and mechanics still present, I really liked them, but adding a general skill that complements the "infiltrator" role; I've always longed for a "walk in the shadows" or stealth skill.

There is a Stealth skill in GF4 and GF5, however you can't raise it with skillpoints, only through wearing infiltrator items.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

I want a money cheat. I hated the early games where I had to actually save money for things

[Hyena of Ice]

Question: Do you guys think I should make a separate thread where we brainstorm disciplines/Guardian moves? What I mean is, do you guys think it warrants its own separate topic? (which by extension would keep such clutter from me out of my posts in this thread)

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Why not? There's no charge for a new topic

[priumcyaes]

Just post it in here. Maybe write something like "Discipline Brainstorming" at the top(s) of the post(s) and bold/underline it? I mean, it'd all go under features we'd want in the remakes anyways.

 

Edit: very super nitpicky/wish-y, but I'd love to see more stealth and diplomacy options. Granted, I also liked fighting my way through stuff, so in the end it's not too high a priority for me, but it'd be nice to have leadership/luck/stealth/whatnot pay off more than it already does.

[Hyena of Ice]

I don't know about G4/5 and I don't remember it from 1/2 all too well, but it already pays off a massive amount in 3 provided it's insanely high (for maximum benefit you need it at 14 by the time you reach the Main Army Camp, and 12 by the time you reach the Madness Mire on Harmony Isle)-- you can get extra items, special/scenario items, tons more experience, and sometimes experience points while avoiding the battle and killing the enemy for the experience/drops anyway (e.g. the Thahds on the Captured Bridge, provided you're fast enough)

 

Personally I like the stealth as-is in the first three games-- hide behind obstacles + sneak past via combat mode, esp. when hasted (always fun) Can't speak to the last two titles as I still have yet to play them.

I agree with the luck part-- I missed having special encounters/goodies in G2/3 like there was in G1.

[priumcyaes]

True about the leadership. Was trying to go for more special encounters/third options (which is GF1 luck, I suppose?). I'm kind of the opposite -- played Geneforge 3-5 to completion, 2 nearly to completion, and 1 barely a quarter through because it lagged something awful on my old computer (and gives me eye strain on the new one after a while). Don't know much about those special encounters you speak of.

 

The choice to go stealth or fight your way through is always appreciated, though.

 

And may I really emphasize playing the latter two in the series? I know you might've already been prepared to do that, but they have characters that carry over from 3 and lots of multiple ending choices/factions (well, not 4 so much as 5, but I was happy with the alternative in 4). Loved seeing Alwan and Greta again; was a nice continuity touch, imo (was it necessary? debatable. was it cool seeing your old travel companions throughout the last two games? probably, yeah).

[Hyena of Ice]

^^I do plan to. I've just been milking it with 3-- haven't played to the end yet despite being on my third playthrough. Then some of the Avernums captured my attention. Plus I'm playing around with the sprites, map screenshots (hoo, quite a project-- and I plan to make maps of some of the additional w. Fort Wilton buildings) and stuff for a G3 fic I'm doing (which I'm aware is premature considering I haven't played 4. 5 IMO doesn't apply to this since from what I've heard the characters have been through so much that their personalities have likely changes a lot.) And, off topic, I do have the screenshots (taken straight from the data files) of Greta in G4 and Alwan in G5 in case I ever want to draw them or render them in Daz Studio. (Daz is a 3D hobbyist program very similar to Poser, which, BTW, is the source of many of Jeff's character/furniture sprites, some items from A5 onward, and the ending screenshots from G5. Poser renders were also used as the base or as a reference for much of the game art in later titles, such as the character full body status portraits in the Avadon series. I actually recognize quite a few objects and some clothing/hair/etc. from the Daz 3D store.) Though unlike the games, there's a lot of humor in my fic. Anyhow, sorry about the off-topic yammering.

 

Leadership applies in G1 as well, but luck is needed (a max of 10, I believe) in order to unlock the Ancient Sucian quest tree as well as finding some nice Ancient Sucian goodies inside/near the ancient pillars. I am less familiar with the leadership needed in the first two games because I paid less attention and haven't played them as much (one playthrough for G1, two for G2)

 

Anyhow, I'm going to wait on deciding where to post future brainstorming of the disciplines until I get votes from more people on this thread. Though what I've come up with is that there are 8 disciplines each for Melee weapons, missile weapons, and Quick Action, plus a third "Other" group which includes a couple spell-related abilities, two leadership-related ones (mainly for Guardians), and a mechanics one (using a living tool and jumping on a golem's back to deactivate it a la G2-- interestingly there's unused code in the Purification Plant script to do that to the golems there.)

[Faerie Storm]

If we are talking geneforge remakes, one really annoying balance issue in gene forge 5 is acid/poison and the largely nerfed cure spell. This was seriously very annoying.... /rant

 

Ok, now for stuff I'd love to see in remakes:

- updated engine for all the games, so they are all the same engine.

- More books to learn skills in geneforge , specifically in the old school it would make sense if a few spell books got left behind/left intact. -- Add the stealth mechanic to G1-3.

- Alwan and Greta as real characters with inventory/able to use gear (non-sellable/non-droppable Alwan's sword though I'd think because he would not abandon it XD).

- Ability to pick which of the spells greta knows for her to use.

- Different text if you play as a servile from the shaper side at least in G4-5.

- More different endings for G3, this game is so very binary.

- Battle disciplines for guardians and later the rebel weapon type users (based on your level in the weapon skills)

-Oh and the ability to shape in combat even if you can only shape unstable variants in combat.

 

Geneforge 5 mini rant:

- Geneforge 5 acid damage, and weak cure spell. plus everything dealing acid damage.... even when it didn't seem to make sense for them to do so. Lightning projectile but applying acid? (and acid damage being higher then earlier games?)

- Aslo in geneforge 5, why are we never able to do the dangerous act of telling other shapers that Rawl has a geneforge.... even if you join their factions. I mean you could make this have someone try and assassinate you for it but I think we should be able to throw it in his face. He's so mean that you just want to give him a good punch in the face.

/rant

 

ok the last 2 were geneforge 5 specific but I think I covered the main points of the series that I'd like to see in a remake.

[Hyena of Ice]

Ok, now for stuff I'd love to see in remakes:

- updated engine for all the games, so they are all the same engine.

There's several things in the new engine that I absolutely don't want to see though.

--The pricing/sale system which is a product of the no-weight system. It's redundant and not fun (lack of variety) when only a few useless objects can be sold in the game.

--Not being able to equip armor or close doors in combat/when an enemy is near.

--Not being able to move after performing one attack-- it nerfs the entire point of Agents as hit-and-run characters, which was still possible in G3 when hasted.

--Being slowed down by the adjacent enemy-- again makes Agents less useful, and I hate it in general in the games-- I vastly prefer the Nethergate system where the enemy hits you when you move past them.

--Might be kinda cool to have more available weapons, such as polearms *spears, halberds, and staves* and axes (but they don't use a separate skill e.g. blades and polearms like Avernum. The fact that you can't equip a shield with them should be enough of a tradeoff in Geneforge, IMO-- but instead of more damage *staves would actually do less*, the tradeoff of equipping a staff should be a small bonus to parry and most items beyond like-- iron or steel quarterstaff giving stat boosts. Obviously this would make polearms slightly more available/cost slightly fewer skill points for Shapers, Lifecrafters, and Sorceresses than other battle skills) It would be nice, but only low-priority on my wishlist.

--Log hollows, like in Ultima 5 and Serpent Isle-- but either make it difficult to see the holes *bark is dark* or make most tree hollows either be empty and/or result in special encounters like "it's full of bugs, but there's nothing interesting inside" or "you reach inside and something bites your hand!" (with subsequent searches saying "You decide you don't want your hand to be bitten again". as well as the rare "You flash a light into the gaping hole of this huge, ancient tree. You see several pairs of glowing eyes staring back at you. To your horror, several huge rats crawl out, looking for fresh meat" Not high on my list, but it would be cool for all future games.

 

As for your comments:

--I absolutely do not want to see the ability to shape during combat-- it violates the atmosphere/fluff of the series where shaping requires great concentration, and probably too much time.

--Absolutely need different text if you play as a servile. I'm shocked to hear that is not possible in G5 when A4 has different text if it identifies one of your party members as the Slith or Nephil creature types (In the Geneforge series, there are human and creation creature types, so it's mind-boggling why there is no difference whatsoever-- obviously the differences can't be entirely in-character *e.g. Alwan* or else you'd have a major gamebreaker)

On a similar note, I want to see class-based differences-- in G3 for instance, there is a dialogue with Alwan in... the Roamer Marsh I think, which might be dummied out as I've never gotten it in the game. He complains about having nobody to take orders from, takes some of it out on Greta, and makes a comment about Agents as if your player is not an agent (which, if this convo is dummied out, is probably why. A shame if it is, it's a good convo)

--I don't want to see Avadon or Avernum-style disciplines where you get fatigued-- as mentioned, I want to see them be the same as shaping and spells, where you need training in the discipline, and the disciplines cost SP to use *but generally lower-cost than spells, since the Guardian doesn't get much SP). I also seriously hope Jeff doesn't change the shaping skill system at all in that its rules become different from magic.

Make differences when playing a Servile a little more significant-- require a certain amount of leadership skill in order to join the shapers (not incredibly high-- maybe around 7~8.)

[Lilith]

--The pricing/sale system which is a product of the no-weight system. It's redundant and not fun (lack of variety) when only a few useless objects can be sold in the game.

 

I kind of feel the opposite way: I don't feel like doing a bunch of busywork collecting unusable junk out of everyone's desk just so I can sell it for a few coins really adds to the game. I'd be happy enough for unusable-but-sellable loot to be abstracted into gold and for flavour items to be kept as flavour and nothing more.

 

--Not being able to equip armor or close doors in combat/when an enemy is near.

 

Being unable to equip armour in combat is something that dates all the way back to the Exile series, so I wouldn't count on getting your wish on that one: it seems to be something that appeals to Jeff's sense of realism. As for the door thing, either monsters can reopen doors that you close, in which case closing them is mostly pointless, or they can't, in which case closing doors is kind of gamebreaking.

 

--Not being able to move after performing one attack-- it nerfs the entire point of Agents as hit-and-run characters, which was still possible in G3 when hasted.

 

You are probably not going to get your wish here, either. Judging by his repeated, deliberate and increasingly intense attempts to nerf it in response to betatesters' reports during testing of each game, it seems that Jeff never actually liked the hit-and-run playstyle or intended for it to be as viable as it was. On the bright side, Agents still do pretty well for themselves by disabling groups of enemies with mental magic and picking them off one at a time.

 

--Absolutely need different text if you play as a servile. I'm shocked to hear that is not possible in G5 when A4 has different text if it identifies one of your party members as the Slith or Nephil creature types (In the Geneforge series, there are human and creation creature types, so it's mind-boggling why there is no difference whatsoever-- obviously the differences can't be entirely in-character *e.g. Alwan* or else you'd have a major gamebreaker)

 

I don't know who told you it wasn't possible. There are in fact some differences in dialogue in G4 and G5 based on whether your character is a servile, although they're generally minor.

[Faerie Storm]

As for your comments:

--I absolutely do not want to see the ability to shape during combat-- it violates the atmosphere/fluff of the series where shaping requires great concentration, and probably too much time.

 

We see NPC shapers shaping in combat all the time, so it's definitely not unheard of in the geneforge world. There are a number of unstable creation types in geneforge which typically decay out of combat and every turn of combat. NPC shapers shape stable creations in combat, at least let us shape the unstable charged varieties in combat because that's the only time they are really useful.

[Hyena of Ice]

^^Oh, yeah, I forgot about that... >_< Sorry.

 

Agents still do pretty well for themselves by disabling groups of enemies with mental magic and picking them off one at a time.

Yeah, but Daze is SERIOUSLY nerfed in the new games as well since it only disables the enemies for a single round. This creates a serious problem for Agents as you'd basically be casting Daze every other round-- it's basically nerfed for a solo character.

 

As for the door thing, either monsters can reopen doors that you close, in which case closing them is mostly pointless, or they can't, in which case closing doors is kind of gamebreaking.

Problem is that you can't close the door even if the monster is more than 3-4 spaces away-- which is unrealistic. We're supposed to believe that the character can't shut the door it in the time it takes for a monster to move 5 or more spaces, and can't close + barricade it when the monster is 8 or more spaces away? (i.e. said enemy has no action points left to "use" the door. In comparison, a character can use two items in a round.)

 

I wish the armor thing could at least be met half way-- take a full action to change armor, like in Ultima 5.

 

It's incredibly disappointing to hear that Jeff dislikes hit-and-run tactics, as that is by far my favorite-- let the players and enemy use it like in Geneforge 1 and 2, or at least while hasted in 3... (in the first two I always pictures Esther running away, then spinning around while leaping to launch a fireball at the opponent and end the round facing them as she lands on her feet.) To me it makes archers and Agents almost useless if they can't move away from the enemy in order to use their missile attack. Plus I always had a problem with the mental image of hitting someone with a fireball or searer at point-blank range-- seems like that would be self-destructive, esp. with searer since you'd get hit with acid splashback. Do G4 and G5 implement the "monster slows you down" rules? If so, then Agents and Infiltrators must be the absolute worst classes in those games.

[Lilith]

Yeah, but Daze is SERIOUSLY nerfed in the new games as well since it only disables the enemies for a single round. This creates a serious problem for Agents as you'd basically be casting Daze every other round-- it's basically nerfed for a solo character.

 

... no it doesn't? I have no idea where you're getting this information from. Even with low Mental Magic skill it usually lasts at least two or three turns, as long as you don't make it wear off by attacking.

 

Aside from Daze, Charm is also surprisingly good crowd control despite only affecting a single target. Enemies will usually prioritise the nearest target if you haven't already attacked them: one well-chosen charmed enemy can keep an entire group out of your hair as they attack each other instead of you.

 

(Also, even Agents don't necessarily have to be solo characters. People talked up the virtues of a solo Agent a lot in Geneforge 1, but in the later games pretty much any class can benefit from having a creation or two around even with minimal investment in shaping.)

 

Problem is that you can't close the door even if the monster is more than 3-4 spaces away-- which is unrealistic. We're supposed to believe that the character can't shut the door it in the time it takes for a monster to move 5 or more spaces, and can't close + barricade it when the monster is 8 or more spaces away? (i.e. said enemy has no action points left to "use" the door. In comparison, a character can use two items in a round.)

 

It's not a matter of realism, it's a matter of preventing abuses of the game mechanics; in earlier games, players were opening doors, firing missiles or spells through the doorway, and then closing the door before the enemy took its turn in order to kill bosses with no risk. Jeff never figured out a way to make closing doors tactically useful without making it into a win button, so he just cut it out of the game entirely.

 

Do G4 and G5 implement the "monster slows you down" rules? If so, then Agents and Infiltrators must be the absolute worst classes in those games.

 

Nah, the physical classes are the worst, especially the Warrior/Guardian (I mean, they're still entirely playable, but in relative terms the other classes are just better). Agents and Infiltrators are still pretty powerful, although in G5 they're overshadowed by the Sorceress (strong magic, medium shaping, weak combat, arguably the best class in the game).

[Hyena of Ice]

^^Yes, but the sorceress still has her creations to fall back on. With Agents and Infiltrators it's simply not worth investing the essence or skill points in. I found shaping to be 100% wasteful for Agents.

 

no it doesn't? I have no idea where you're getting this information from. Even with low Mental Magic skill it usually lasts at least two or three turns, as long as you don't make it wear off by attacking.

Hmm, yeah, in the Avernum remakes it's two, but in the Avadon games it only causes the loss of the creature's turn for the rest of that round + the next round. Compare this to G1-3 where it costs the creature the rest of that turn + 3 more.

[BMA]

I want to be able to use the arrow keys to move around instead of point and click. It's one of my biggest irritations

 

Makes it appear as if the whole game world is a grid (which it is) but I'm not a fan of how obviously grid-like the movement is in the Avernum's. Point and click gives you 'smoother' non-edgy movement.

[Lilith]

Hmm, yeah, in the Avernum remakes it's two, but in the Avadon games it only causes the loss of the creature's turn for the rest of that round + the next round. Compare this to G1-3 where it costs the creature the rest of that turn + 3 more.

 

It lasts multiple turns in G4 and G5 as well, which I assumed was what you meant by "the new games". But for what it's worth, Daze can last multiple turns in Avadon too, depending on your character's skill level -- however, on higher difficulty levels some enemies (mostly bosses) get bonus actions that aren't affected by Daze or other disabling effects. That doesn't happen in the new Avernum remakes, though (although bosses are usually scripted to be immune to disabling effects and receive lesser curses instead when you try to inflict them on them).

[Nim]

Leadership applies in G1 as well, but luck is needed (a max of 10, I believe) in order to unlock the Ancient Sucian quest tree as well as finding some nice Ancient Sucian goodies inside/near the ancient pillars.

This is so wrong. The most you need is 2 luck in the icy tunnels to get a spellcraft bonus. No sure what you mean by "Ancient Sucian quest tree". No luck involved there regardless.

Hmm, yeah, in the Avernum remakes it's two, but in the Avadon games it only causes the loss of the creature's turn for the rest of that round + the next round. Compare this to G1-3 where it costs the creature the rest of that turn + 3 more.

G1 has no Daze. G2 Daze can last quite long, Iirc I've had up to 15 turns or so. G3-5 has 4 turns daze.

 

Would it be so hard to actually play these games before you make long posts what should be changed about them ?

[Spukrian]

I suspect that I'm entirely alone in this, but I'd like the Servile to be replaced with a human equivalent. Say, let's call the class Paladin or Juggernaut or something else that fits.

 

Either that, or make Servile a race option for most or even all classes. But that probably won't happen, too much work with the graphics required...

[Hyena of Ice]

This is so wrong. The most you need is 2 luck in the icy tunnels to get a spellcraft bonus. No sure what you mean by "Ancient Sucian quest tree". No luck involved there regardless.

G1 has no Daze. G2 Daze can last quite long, Iirc I've had up to 15 turns or so. G3-5 has 4 turns daze.

 

Would it be so hard to actually play these games before you make long posts what should be changed about them ?

 

I was going by memory, and it's been a long time since I played G1. Also, what I said about luck in G1 is accurate-- I had mine too low at one point (4 was needed to find a special/scenario item-- a small ivory wand or something like that in one of the pillars)

[Slawbug]

Looks like you don't need Luck at all, according to this topic:

 

http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/13249-ancient-pylons-in-geneforge-original/

 

You do need a specific order, though.

[Faerie Storm]

In geneforge 2 the normal daze spell being single target was annoying, can't remember is strong daze was an AoE spell though in that game. I've been replaying it but not at the point that I could learn strong daze.

[Nim]

I was going by memory, and it's been a long time since I played G1. Also, what I said about luck in G1 is accurate-- I had mine too low at one point (4 was needed to find a special/scenario item-- a small ivory wand or something like that in one of the pillars)

You need 1 luck for the bone baton in a stone pylon in the stone circle area. 2 luck for spellcraft in the icy tunnels. That's it for G1. Prove me wrong.

 

In geneforge 2 the normal daze spell being single target was annoying, can't remember is strong daze was an AoE spell though in that game. I've been replaying it but not at the point that I could learn strong daze.

G2 strong daze is AoE and has no to-hit component unlike its little brother. And imo single target daze was plenty useful in G2, swarms were smaller than in later games, taking out one or 2 enemies with daze for a lot of turns does make an impact there.

[Hyena of Ice]

You need 1 luck for the bone baton in a stone pylon in the stone circle area. 2 luck for spellcraft in the icy tunnels. That's it for G1. Prove me wrong.

Ah, that would be it then-- precisely what I went through (I had 0 luck when I first tried to get the bone baton because I didn't understand what it did.)

 

I think I will make a separate thread for Disciplines we'd want to see/brainstorming in the remakes, because I get next to no feedback on it here, and I want to brainstorm it.

[Spukrian]

I think I will make a separate thread for Disciplines we'd want to see/brainstorming in the remakes, because I get next to no feedback on it here, and I want to brainstorm it.

Yes, make a separate thread, that's a good idea.

[Faerie Storm]

Oh does anyone else miss how living tools worked in the first game? You could use some living tools then finish opening the last bit with the unlock spell.

[Brainless Void]

A spell to resurrect your creations anyone?

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

There is one. It's called reload quick save.

[Brainless Void]

Haha. Good one. Never realized that im doin it too

[Brainless Void]

Maybe we can add a Drakon class to the rebels, haha. They can also shape right?

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Now that would be fun! They are walking around with a major chip in their shoulder the whole series and at least the last game there seems to be a place for a playable drakon.

There wouldn't be any realistic pro shaper ending though

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Sorry double post

[Meri20098]

Arrow keys to move in the world

[ThricebornPhoenix]

--Monster and item encyclopedias as per a lot of the JRPGs out there like Castlevania-- entry becomes unlocked once you put the item in your inventory for the first time, or once you kill x number of the monster. Monster encyclopedia includes item drops (unlocked on list once at least one of your kills has dropped that particular item) and weakness/strengths.

Still... comparing, say, Symphony of the Night with Final Fantasy XII, I greatly prefer the latter. SotN has stats, drops, and screenshots, all redundant in the internet age. FFXII has artwork, lengthy descriptions, and bits of lore. It feels more like a natural extension of the game (and a great way to add some depth to the world) and less like going to GameFAQs (which, if you're interested in that sort of thing, you'll probably do anyway).

 

Probably takes a great deal more work, though.

[Hyena of Ice]

^^Not redundant at all unless you're accessing the faq info on your iPhone, which not everyone uses (I don't)

Besides that, I haven't seen enemy drops or weaknesses listed on any faq for any of the games. You basically have to open the itemchars text and jot everything down, which can be confusing.

Sure, an encyclopedia might not be necessary if people actually MADE faqs/listed the stats/drops/etc, but I have never seen anyone do that with the second Avernum trilogy or any of the Geneforge games (haven't looked to see if anyone made one for one or more of the Avernum remakes or Avadons)

[Hyena of Ice]

Alright, this is some specific stuff that I'd like to see in a remake of G3. Be warned that uh... the paragraph about your teachers is a little graphic.

 

------Too few students at the academy. I mean there are what, 4.. 5.. 6 teachers? And an equal number of students? I know that some supposedly fled earlier in the morning, but that's still too few. Since there would likely be a 2nd story floor in a remake, I would hope that we would see some more students, including some who stick around but don't join you for whatever reason. Besides the fact that it seems odd that only a few outsider guards and serviles remain after you clear the place out... What's more, you really need some sort of non-filler engineer there, who knows how to SAFELY remove the rubble and stabilize parts of the building. Just having stock character soldiers and serviles clean the place up is just asking for trouble.

 

 

------The lack of details/focus on your murdered teachers makes it feel like their deaths aren't that big a deal. I think that, in a remake, Jeff should add details and cut scenes that make the reader really feel something over their deaths.

 

1. Why doesn't Alwan react to seeing their bodies up close?

2. IIRC, aren't there giant rats near the bodies? I think that Alwan would go a bit berserk upon seeing rats munching on the bodies of your teachers...

3. Give a graphic description of their bodies-- something like "The air here reeks of sulfur, and something else. The air is filled with what smells like overcooked ornk meat, but you know that it is something far worse. This collapsing room is filled with the faint smell of blood, and the stench of burnt flesh and hair."

along with something like "Their bodies are covered in burns, their flesh torn away from powerful bite attacks, and their limbs mangled by great crushing blows."

 

--Then, if you return after leaving/being visited by Litalia at the South End, their bodies are replaced by an equal number of bloody tarps. If Greta is with you, she will ask a nearby guard which is the body of her favorite teacher. Greta, being as dangerously curious as she is, lifts the tarp. "The sight absolutely horrifies her. _____ suffered such severe injuries to her face that it is no longer recognizable. Greta leaps back, screaming. She huddles against the wall, crying hysterically. While you feel her pain, this is not an acceptable reaction for a shaper to make in public. Alwan clearly wants to chide her for this, but he decides to keep his mouth shut."

--When you return to give Mind Hrrol your report, the bodies are gone, and many of the NPCs are not where they're supposed to be.

If you enter the courtyard, you'll see most of the NPCs there, along with several graves (ones with wooden markers rather than tombstones-- they are just temporary graves). You'll be treated to a small memorial ceremony for your dead teachers.

 

Even without the graphic first part (burnt flesh/etc), I would really like to see the Greta and memorial scenes, along with Alwan's reaction when he sees the bodies for the first time.

 

 

----An addition to Alwan's/Greta's parting dialogue if you used more than 6 canisters. From Alwan I picture something like "But now I see that you are lost to our kind, and maybe even humanity as well."-- as a consequence you may also be limited in possible responses you can give (wishing them well may not be an option), and if you choose the hostile response, possibly a brief warning to the other companion of the danger they are putting themselves in by following you. (e.g. from Alwan possibly something like "He turns to Greta. "Greta,", he calls out. She keeps her back turned to him. You notice that she looks shocked-- Alwan has never addressed her by name before. "If you continue to travel with him/her, then you will regret it. I say this not as a threat, but as a warning. That is not the same (your character class) who recruited us."

Not sure what Greta's warning would be like, other than maybe something along the lines of "She turns to look at Alwan. "Alwan," she calls out. "Are you sure you want to keep travelling with (your character's name) I do not think that she is the person that she used to be." and then some warning towards his safety/whether he will be sorry/something like that, though I'm drawing a blank for quotes. As for her other line, something like "But I do not feel that what they are fighting is that much better. But it is more than just that. You are different from before... You have become cold and distant, even by Shaper standards."

 

Also in the text when you enter town after using more than 6 canisters: "You notice that Alwan/ Greta/ Alwan and Greta are also staring at you with concern."

 

-----Fix the timeline inconsistencies from the beginning to end of G3.

--Up until you reach Gull Island, the timeline is consistent. However, on Gull Isle,the rebellion changes from having begun months ago to having begun weeks ago. (possibly changed when Jeff decided to have the Gull Isle shapers kidnapped and starving-- personally I still like the first timeline-- esp. since the second creates problems with the timeline for General Greiner going nutso, and that when you reach Harmony Isle, it's likely that no more than a week + few days passed since the rebellion began-- which is awfully soon for the situation with the gatherers to reach the point that it has.)

--When Agatha and the serviles first began to act strangely is contradicted several times. Macallan says months ago, Nazar says years ago as does someone else or the narration at the Icy End, and Khyryk, in separate dialogue trees, says one year, and several years (Khyryk contradicts himself? Yikes!)

 

--Fix inconsistencies/plotholes with the first two games regarding to shaper education (the first two state that you go through several years of school, then several more *the number given in G1 is 5 years* of vocational training before you can become a full shaper. When you meet Alwan in G3, we are told that he is about to be initiated as a Guardian, even though he clearly hasn't gone through vocational training. Litalia gives several ranks for students-- apprentice, then novice, then student, despite that you are repeatedly referred to as both "apprentice" or "novice" many times throughout the game. Also, by G1/2 terms, Litalia and Diwaniya could not be "not much older than you".)

 

--Okay, so we know that Diwaniya is the only shaper on Harmony Isle. We also know from the dialogue that he has spies, which would have to be outsiders rather than agents-- probably hunters and former soldiers-- and that they are skilled enough combatants that they can hold their own while stalking you throughout the rogue-infested isle. Seems like there should be a hunter or two living in the wilderness, along with a few less skilled ones stuck in town (maybe one of them will buy hides from you)

 

 

Oh, I'd also like to see a few more regions-- preferrably optional regions-- in the game (even though there are already completely optional regions on each Isle save maybe Spears-- The Training Hall, Kyra's Refuge, Sphaeron's Lab, the Darkstone Mine complex, and the Monastary Isle/Caverns)

1. There's the whole "ominous ring of land" RPG cliche going on Harmony Isle. I wanna see what's in the center of that lake. I bet it's a volcanic/magma plug!

2. There's a huge area on the southwest corner of Greenwood Isle that you can't access.

3. Couple of small islands off of Dhonal. Probably not much there, though the southern one is partially wooded.

Personally, I'd like to see some sort of brigand hideout for #1 and #3, rather than rogues. There's a serious lack of plain hostile bandits/brigands in the game.

 

More as I think of it.

[ThricebornPhoenix]

I have a crazy idea. Actually, I have nothing but crazy ideas, but there's one that may have merit here: zone descriptions.

 

That text that pops up just before you can begin to explore a new zone? That's usually several paragraphs long, and only triggers once? I'd like to see that segregated to an optional action which you can perform at any time. This would mean rewriting a lot of them, I suspect, at least partly, but as it stands they drive me batty. They really kill the pacing and I sometimes close them accidentally. I would be much happier if the zone description triggering was up to me. As a bonus, maybe the prescence of certain creations in your party could add more information than your mere human senses can discern, to expand on the non-combat side of shaping.

 

^^Not redundant at all unless you're accessing the faq info on your iPhone, which not everyone uses (I don't)

Besides that, I haven't seen enemy drops or weaknesses listed on any faq for any of the games. You basically have to open the itemchars text and jot everything down, which can be confusing.

Sure, an encyclopedia might not be necessary if people actually MADE faqs/listed the stats/drops/etc, but I have never seen anyone do that with the second Avernum trilogy or any of the Geneforge games

Alt+tab?

 

Hmm... there are some odd cases in item drops (an apparently hard-coded low-chance Girdle of Might drop from a particular Terror Vlish in G3, for example, that I found reference to only in an obscure thread here), and I suppose you're right - some in-game way to see these things could be helpful. And, actually, that sort of info could be more important if the Geneforge remake follows recent convention and doesn't show you enemy HP when you right-click them.

 

I just would rather not see only technical data.

 

inconsistencies

I think we're all hoping to see a lot of inconsistencies squashed. I seem to recall that it was complaints about them in Geneforge that led to Avadon's lore being worked out right at the start, so I think this is one hope with a good chance of happening.