Avadon the Black Fortress on Android - a casual gamer's review

[ymoc]

Let me first bid everyone a big hello!

 

This is my first time posting here so please excuse any mistakes (English is my second laguage) or misunderstandings I might have about the game and everything surrounding it.

"Coincidentally", Avadon is also the first game from Spiderweb that I have played.

 

To be fair, I probably never would have played the game were it not for the Humble Bundle which featured Avadon The Black Fortress as one of its titles.

 

The reason why I joined this forum was to express my opinion about this game and (mostly) give some hopefully constructive criticism and review.

 

Next thing important thing to consider is: I played the game (on normal) on my tablet so my impressions are a reflection of that version and not the PC.

 

I am not a gaming journalist so my reviewing skills aren't particularly great, but I will try my best to give a good opinion from a perspective of a somewhat casual gamer that loves turn based and rpg games.

• Graphics:
  

To me, the first thing I see in a rpg are the graphics. This is one of the biggest factors by which I decide whether I want to play (but not necessarily like) a game or not.

I grew up to love the Diablo 2 and Divine Divinity-kind-of look the most over the years, with its beautiful 2d environments and characters so that kind of games always have a soft spot in my heart.

 

That being said, I have to be frank about Avadon. I immediately felt the game to be rather unpleasant to my eyes. Apart from the character portraits the game looked pretty bleak and monotone and the locations almost all the time seemed too similar to each other.

 

The character design also deserves criticism. There is little diversity and imagination that was put into the look and feel of the humanoids and monsters. Particularly disappointing were the dragons (which were described as monstrous and incredibly strong creatures) which looked nothing more than big lions with wings. The same can be said of the titans. The rest of the monsters were usually smaller wolves, spiders and lizards, which to me were all pretty unimpressive and gave me (especially the lizards and spiders) very little satisfaction when I was slaughtering them on by one. Maybe Spiderweb Soft wants you to start loathing killing all those poor spiders since they feel sorry for them on a deeper ontological level

Enough with the bad jokes!

Considering the game is predominantly a hack and slash experince (admit it!) all the graphical shortcomings make it even less satisfying.

Funny fact: Once I even encountered a female character that was used for a male speaker of the text, which made me chuckle a bit he he he.

 

The character animation is barely existent so I cannot comment a lot here, but I did not get an impression that the game lacked something fundamental with poor animation. It really wasn't such an important factor, but it would've been nicer to have more fluid animation, especially the way of walking, but I'm nitpicking here.

 

Score: 4\10

• Gameplay:
  

This is the core of the game and unlike the graphics is actually important when deciding wether this is a good, mediocre or bad game.

 

The first thing that really deserves criticism is the movement.

 

Playing on a tablet can sometimes be a pain in the ass.

Moving through the map is basically moving screen to screen. This means when you move to the edge of a screen, the view "jumps" to the next visible area. Moving forward is therefore achieved through constant tapping the edge of the screen. The whole thing is very jagged and annoying. You cannot hold your finger at the edge of the screen and let your main character keep running in that direction. Nope, you gotta keep tapping, keep tapping it. I think the easiest way to solve this problem would be to implement autoscrolling. Yeah, there is no autoscrolling in Avadon (as far as I noticed).

The most effective way to move forward that I managed to find was to make (oxymoron) a manual autoscroll by tapping on the destination I wanted my party to go and then quickly pressing my finger on the screen and pulling the view in the said direction before the main character reached the edge of the screen (to prevent the extremely annoying screen jump). When I did this fast enough it made the moving was actually relatively smooth. Of course this routine gets tiring since you're working your fingers way too much just to get from one side of the map to the other.

When you've actually explored the map you are able to tap the destination on your minimap and your party finds the way automatically, so at least this makes backtracing a little less discomforting (your fingers and wrist will thank you).

 

Another thing that would need a better solution would also be the minimap.

The button to expand the mini map into the complete map is too small and it is actually put on top of the mini map.

Half the time I wanted to expand the mini map by tapping the "Expand" button, but I ended up failing, because I would miss it by a hair and the screen would move to the minimap's location I tapped by accident (that would be to the lower left corner).

The whole problem could be handled better by either moving the expand button next to the minimap or making the button a bit bigger.

Also I wouldn't mind if the map had a few extra functions, like similar with minimap to be able to move to the the tapped location on the map. Another thing that would've been nice is having the option of making notes on the map, which would help a lot with those numerous FedEx quests.

 

Another thing I ended up being annoyed with was switching from melee to ranged during and after combat. The buttons are small and put in the lower left corner which makes it discomforting to keep pressing. (I'm stretching this a bit, but I think there could've been a more dynamic solution for tablet users)

 

Abot the character system, while not being a fan of D&D, I found it to be ok. You have the basic classes with their own specialities which I think I don't need to point out. Although I would say that the level cap could've been pointed out eariler in the game, so that as a casual gamer I would be able to invest into the skill tree with a bit more tact. Because I was spending points liberally, since I didn't expect a level 30 cap, I ended up not getting the top skill I was striving for since the middle of the game. And another thing that was a bit unclear were the bonus points to skills that you receive through special items. It took me a while to figure out that the bonus wasn't calculated into the number on the skill tree, but there was a little +1 on top of the number (that was me being silly).

Another thing I missed was the ability to save points for later. The game forced you to spend all your upgrade points immediately when you leveled up. This was a bit problematic for me at the start, because I was completely unfamiliar with the game's design and I couldn't wait upgrading until I learned more about it (like most other rgps allow).

 

Another thing that could've been introduced a bit more were the basic stats. I still don't how exactly does +1 of, let's say, Dexterity affect my character. I did not feel it to be rather significant (or maybe it makes more difference on Hard and Torment) on Normal. This meant that the items I received usually didn't feel much different with one another. Be it +5% resistance, or +1 strength, etc. Even in the last parts of the game the items didn't become much stronger or unique. More than half the game I "struggled" with mediocre equipment which I ended up using almost to the end since there were really few items that topped them. Most of the time the item would just have a different "buff".

Why did I use " " there? Because I really don't consider "-10% to ability respawn" something worthy of a top item. What does this even do? That instead in 8 turns my ability would return in 7.5 or 7 if I'm lucky? By that time the fight would've either been long over or I would've used one of the (quite numerous) items to recharge my abilities. This made items like these useless to me (maybe I'm playing it wrong, but this was my experience). The same goes for many other blessings and curses.

Never in the game did I feel like I obtained any extraordinary item (im wondering if this is a D&D thing, since I remember feeling similarly when I played the Baldur's Gate series.... nope, Chronicles of Aethra did it perfectly and the game is a closer relative to Avadon than BG, so maybe not!).

 

The thing that was annoying to me as a casual gamer was that I had no idea how resistant my character was against mind effects or magical, melee or other attacks. I could equip an armor that gave me let's say 5% resistance to hostile effects and then I would cross my fingers and hope that nothing hit me. I still have no idea what "hostile effects" even are and how much those 5% would even matter in the end (the game chronically needs better descriptions).

I believe that these things should've been made much clearer in the character window (with a comulative statistics for each character, e.g. 20% resistance to melee, 30 % resistance to magic attack, etc.).

 

I also felt that the Shaman and partly the Wizard had much less dedicated weapons compared to the Blademaster. Blademaster could effectivly use swords, bows, spears (+ armor) and also have a similar number of attack abilities and chants as the other classes. I think the balance here could've been a bit better (strictly speaking about items, not the total damage dealt by each class).

I'm glad I chose the Blademaster

 

The combat is mostly done well, though I wonder about the choice to make a character "stopped" after moving around enemies. This on one hand is a logical thing and helps to keep your casters on a safe distance and force you to make use of special abilities and strategy more, but on the other hand it makes fights slower and less dynamic. In the end it is a design desicion that I don't want to mark as good or bad.

 

 

Score: 6\10

• Story and quests
  

A good point for Avadon is that it is never afraid to show you a wall of text. This is good since it is able to tell a lot more than your avarage hack&slash rpg.

Personally, I quite liked the basic concepts: e.g. Avadon, the great keeper of peace, then the outer provinces, dragons, treason, etc.

There is however something I did not like. As much as I would like to love all the shades of morality in this game, it just didn't convince me entirely. No matter what you did in this game, it was (almost) never truly good or truly evil. You could never go out to do something heroic just for the sake of it and ask nothing in return (ok, a few quests gave you that option, but they were few and insignificant), or on the other hand even when you chose to kill someone it did not really qualify strictly as evil when you look at it from the geopolitical point of view that the game is trying to show. Who is actually the bad guy here? Who is the good guy ? I didn't find that answer and to be honest, nobody was particularly positive. Not the farlanders with their deceptions, murders, trickery, but also not Avadon led by Redbeard, who is nothing more than a power-hungry megalomaniac, who kills everyone who oppose him, tortures and enslaves his enemies, sentences whole villages to death because of the errors their leaders have made, supports murder when it suits his needs all in the name of peace.

 

The quality of writing was fluctuating during the whole game.

The game starts quite strong but soon runs out of breath, especially with side quests.

The main quests were usually solid, but many times stretched out a bit.

 

As mentioned, the side quests are the one I have the biggest gripe with. There are some of the souless and most boring quests I've ever played.

Quests such as "Kill the Rats in the cellar", "Find the recipies of the wizard", "Find the Titan's Club", "Kill the wolves", "Kill the dire wolves", "Kill the xy", "Find the xy" are nothing more than a content filler, full of fetch and carry tasks and mob bashing. A real borefest for me. The saddest thing of all was that there are simply too many quests like this in the game.

I would dare to say the game would've been better off if these quests were cut, or if they at least differed from each other.

As it stands you've got the same maze style map with the same set of monsters in these quests, and the only thing that changes are the statistics and a "scarier" name of the creature. Instead of wolves you've now got dire wolves. Instead of spiders you've now got forest spiders...

 

The companion stories were sometimes interesting, but lots of times they ended up being redundant (especially Shima's was particularly weak, since after a quite long and rather interesting prelude to his great journey for revenge we ended up with the most generic and anticlimax map and conclusion possible. I quite liked Natalie's hunt though, apart from the completely unnecessary puzzle elements).

 

Even the main quests had the same illness. "Go kill the Wretches that are bothering the dragon", and then the biggest faux pas "Go kill the Titans that are bothering the dragon" just to reuse the same assets of the game and provide an extra few hours of playtime. At that point I was about to give up on this game, but my stubbornes to finish a game that I've started was just strong enough to not give up.

 

I have to say I'm glad I finished it, because the last part of the game was actually great! The story finally moved somewhere and things got really interesting. I enjoyed everything after the castle chase and return to Avadon and I'm actually thinking of buying the sequel when it gets out!

 

Moving on.

One thing that bothers me the more I think of it: I never felt like a "hero" of Avadon, in terms of the legendary soldier I was supposed to be by the Avadon folklore. Let me explain more before you call me some rude names

 

In the beginning I was lucky to kill little beasties like rats and spiders, but as the game progressed and I leveled up I never noticed any change. I was still killing the same beasties.The fights were pretty much on the same difficulty level as before, because the game always anticipates your level and strength and puts a matching opponent on your path. Even the little spiders get ridiculus stats later on and there is never really a point where you feel like one of the strongest people in the land. This feeling is increased even more with the few insane fights in the game, where you barely get away with your life, not to mention the absurdity of fighting Redbeard or the second dragon (forgot the name, something on Z). Even the stone guardians are stronger than Avadon's top soldier, with its constant double heal ability and stuns.

Im not saying the game should get easier as you progress, on the contrary it must be even more challenging, but it would've been nice to once in a while kick some major ass and claim the rank of Avadon's top dog between the common folk.

As it stands, you never stop feeling like a little piece of [censored], since everywhere you go there's gonna be a spidey or a rat that's will be on par with Avadon's finest.

You know what, I wouldn't even mind feeling like a little piece of [censored] had all the people not crapped their pants when they noticed that I'M FROM AVADOOOON. All the time. Everyone was saying how awesome I was...If they only knew the little peace of [censored] I really was... :sigh:

 

And speaking of the general game balance, I don't know if this is on purpose, but I see no reason why a dragon with it's stone guardians could not take over or at least kill nearly all of Avadon's soldiers. On top of that, there's just no way Avadon could ever fight 2 dragons combined. The game balance is sometimes a bit ridiculous and it really destroys the image of the world and its "superpowers". If I were a dragon I wouldn't take this [censored] from Avadon, I'd just team up with a dragon mate and burned down all the puny little pieces of [censored]

 

As much as I quite enjoyed the combat, coupled with the bad quest structure and writing, the substandard graphics and level design, the game felt boring way too often. I'm not criticizing that it's linear. I love linear games. I don't however love tedious quests with no purpose other than stretching the game time.

I really wish the developer decided to rather make a 10 hour game instead of 50, but packed it with more quality! Improved character models, textures, quests (especially considering that there is clearly talent for writing, which is sadly wasted on absurd side quests) and added transparency to the character build would go A LONG WAY in making this a really great game.

 

 

Score: 5.5\10

• Sound:
  

The game featured no music besides the title music. I feel the developer made a mistake here.

Over the years I've come to realize just how much music affects games and how much atmosphere it can bestow. This was really a missed opportunity IMHO that should be acknowledged.

Had the game feature and exceptional sound design I might have changed my opinion, but the sound design was dry and minimalistic at best.

I decided to give no score in this category.

 

Score: N\A

• Conclusion:
  

What is there left to say about this game. Here comes some final criticism: I didn't like the essence of this game. When trying to play as a positive (or pure evil) character in Avadon that has been thrown between two moderate evils, the only possible way would've been to not join either side, but the game doesn't give you that option. The game tries to show you that a lesser evil must be made for the greater good, but it tackles it in a bit awkward way which ultimately left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. I hope that this interesting concept will be further developed and upgraded in the future title!

 

What do I see when I look at Avadon. With many flaws I can still see a rough gem in the center. Turn based rpgs today are rare. Very rare. It is most encouraging to see the genre being supported by indie developers and I must admit that Avadon has many positive qualities that should be expanded and built upon.

I see a great potential in the world of Avadon. The game has set up an interesting stage for many more tales and adventures. I sincerely wish that some of my points from this rather ruthless review will be taken into consideration with the future titles. My only wish when writing this review was to do my part as a gamer to help the developer see some of the things that bothered a casual gamer like me.

 

Despite the harsh score, Avadon The Black Fortress is a solid piece of the classic rpg genre and I am looking forward to the sequel. I hope the developer can find even greater inspiration in the future and tries on improving the overall quality of the game and not focuses solely on the length. I think this was the cruical design decision that in my opinion damaged the game more than it benefitied it.

 

 

Final score: 5\10

[*i]

Just a reminder that Jeff is one guy writing the game with a small company. He doesn't have a lot of capital to work with, and graphics and music are expensive. Because of limited assets, the company has been literally one game away from going out of business. The rest of your criticisms are certainly fair though.

[Randomizer]

This was the first game ported to a tablet so most of the faults are from using a screen layout designed for regular computers. Later tablet games, Avernum 6 and Avernum: Escape from the Pit, are better designed, but only available for iPads.

[ymoc]

Just a reminder that Jeff is one guy writing the game with a small company. He doesn't have a lot of capital to work with, and graphics and music are expensive. Because of limited assets, the company has been literally one game away from going out of business. The rest of your criticisms are certainly fair though.

 

Oh that's really commendable, I did not know that. It is a monumental task for a single (!) person to create a game as complex and huge as Avadon.

Maybe I should've been more precise about graphics in correlation to the game. Now that I know it's basically a one man team making the game this stands even more: why focus on making a HUGE game with poorer assets instead of making a shorter game with better assets?

Please try to understand the point I'm trying to make with the graphics. Gamers are many times what we call "graphic-whores". We normally judge the books by its covers (unfortunaly). This is more a curse than a blessing for small developers, but I don't think it is the ruin. I don't know if it's actually possible for a small time developer to greatly increase the quality of sound and image, but thinking of this strictly from an economic point of view of production factors, I imagine it would be possible (?) to divert resources from the quantity over to quality.

Even a short but exceptional game would probably attract a wider audience.

What do you think ?

 

Edit: glad to hear about the improvement of tablet support! I think there is a really great potential market for TurnBased RPGs !

[Alorael at Large]

Jeff is highly risk-averse, in large part because a single flop puts his livelihood and his family at risk. I think he's concerned that he can't afford to try branching out into short games because it might alienate his niche demographic without bringing in new people. I'd also be concerned that there's not great scaling: a shorter game still requires the engine work, balance, and plot. There's less game and therefore less time spent on writing and designing, but that's likely not the biggest time sink and couldn't free up enough money to get better art and sound. Or rather he could improve, but only slightly, and he would still (fairly) be the target of complaints about ugly and unappealing games.

 

 

What he's said, and what I think I can accept, is that his games are not for everyone. They're for a niche: players who forgive old, simple graphics because they like long, often complex games. (It's worth noting that Avadon is probably the shortest Spiderweb game, and by a fair margin. Nethergate might be similar in length, but it's really two short games in one.) You don't like the kind of game he makes very much, and that's fine. Spiderweb's offerings aren't geared to appeal to a mass market because Spiderweb doesn't have the resources to compete in the big leagues. Jeff has carved out his little corner of a market that doesn't get a lot of love (long-form, old-school-eque RPGs) and he's happy with it.

 

—Alorael, who thinks your position is clear. You don't like the graphics and sound. You don't like the lack of transparency (and that's a common complaint with Spiderweb games). You don't like the plot, although the moral ambiguity is used as something of a selling point and has become a hallmark of Spiderweb games. You don't like the writing, which is definitely a selling point of Spiderweb games. Jeff's games have been in this vein for years and he's unlikely to change. It's too bad that they're not for you, but now you know what they are, and this is why Jeff has large demos available and a money-back guarantee for games purchased directly from Spiderweb.

[Lilith]

Jeff is highly risk-averse, in large part because a single flop puts his livelihood and his family at risk. I think he's concerned that he can't afford to try branching out into short games because it might alienate his niche demographic without bringing in new people. I'd also be concerned that there's not great scaling: a shorter game still requires the engine work, balance, and plot. There's less game and therefore less time spent on writing and designing, but that's likely not the biggest time sink and couldn't free up enough money to get better art and sound. Or rather he could improve, but only slightly, and he would still (fairly) be the target of complaints about ugly and unappealing games.

 

Plus, he founded Spiderweb Software because he likes big sprawling RPGs. If making bite-sized games were the only way to keep his business afloat that'd be one thing, but his current model is working out okay for him and lets him make the games he wants to make.

[Alorael at Large]

He's also quick to point out that it's all about the money and that making games is work, not fun. But secretly I think he'd throw in the towel and get a real job if he didn't get any enjoyment or satisfaction at all out of doing this. Being your own boss isn't that great in itself.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the world is full of small games and short on 40 hour chunks of game, much less the immense epics of yesteryear. That's also a tough market. Jeff can compete against Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition because it's just one game. He can't compete in the casual market and he doesn't need or want to.

[Kelandon]

I hope the developer can find even greater inspiration in the future and tries on improving the overall quality of the game and not focuses solely on the length.

I think it's sort of hilarious (and shows how far you are removed from the Spiderweb fanbase) that you say this about Avadon, of all of Spiderweb's games. Avernum 3 might be more vulnerable to this criticism, but Avadon is one of Spiderweb's shorter (and relatively plot-heavy) games. As Alo said, these games may not be the games for you, if you think this.

 

I doubt that more expensive graphics would boost Spiderweb's sales enough to justify the cost. The crowd that Jeff sells to doesn't care. We liked Exile, back in the day.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

If Avadon was any shorter then it wouldn't feel like an SW game at all, and honestly there are enough games out there with better graphics and such, but the main point of SW games is their writing and any cut in length that compromised on the writing will probably alienate a far larger section of his customers then he would gain with any modest improvement in the graphics.

(though I will admit to personal bias, I like his games to be as lengthy as possible, A3 is one of my favorites for that very reason.)

[Alorael at Large]

A3 is long and large, but it could still be improved by removing the interchangeable towns with interchangeable incarnations of Merry.

 

—Alorael, who even thinks that larger wildernesses with fewer towns would capture the spirit of Valorim as frontier better. It doesn't seem very unsettled with cookie-cutter towns dotting the landscape.

[Sudanna]

I didn't care for Avadon either, for many reasons. I don't like the move to skill trees, I feel like the world is barren and generic with nothing enchanting or interesting like Avernum (Completely underground Australia!), Geneforge (the oft-thrown-about magical ability to create and design life, taken to its logical extreme, moral stuff), or Nethergate(Roman invasion, druids, two different sides to play), the main plot is honestly very dry and bloodless, there are few choices to make and they are very dry and bloodless, the graphics and sounds are meh (which is par for the course, but still worth pointing out), the writing is. . . alright(Which is not par for the course), the level design is functional at best, there's only a few characters with any characterization(mostly the companions), the combat is tedious more than fun or challenging. . . I could go on, but it's mostly just more subjective stuff. I didn't play the game much past Kellemderiel, and overall I was obviously disappointed with it. I love SW's games, even the later installments of Avernum, but not this one.

[ymoc]

Jeff is highly risk-averse, in large part because a single flop puts his livelihood and his family at risk. I think he's concerned that he can't afford to try branching out into short games because it might alienate his niche demographic without bringing in new people. I'd also be concerned that there's not great scaling: a shorter game still requires the engine work, balance, and plot. There's less game and therefore less time spent on writing and designing, but that's likely not the biggest time sink and couldn't free up enough money to get better art and sound. Or rather he could improve, but only slightly, and he would still (fairly) be the target of complaints about ugly and unappealing games.

 

 

What he's said, and what I think I can accept, is that his games are not for everyone. They're for a niche: players who forgive old, simple graphics because they like long, often complex games. (It's worth noting that Avadon is probably the shortest Spiderweb game, and by a fair margin. Nethergate might be similar in length, but it's really two short games in one.) You don't like the kind of game he makes very much, and that's fine. Spiderweb's offerings aren't geared to appeal to a mass market because Spiderweb doesn't have the resources to compete in the big leagues. Jeff has carved out his little corner of a market that doesn't get a lot of love (long-form, old-school-eque RPGs) and he's happy with it.

 

—Alorael, who thinks your position is clear. You don't like the graphics and sound. You don't like the lack of transparency (and that's a common complaint with Spiderweb games). You don't like the plot, although the moral ambiguity is used as something of a selling point and has become a hallmark of Spiderweb games. You don't like the writing, which is definitely a selling point of Spiderweb games. Jeff's games have been in this vein for years and he's unlikely to change. It's too bad that they're not for you, but now you know what they are, and this is why Jeff has large demos available and a money-back guarantee for games purchased directly from Spiderweb.

 

Mmmhm I can understand where you're coming from. Basically the niche market that his games have established is on one side a means of survival but on the other hand a cage.

 

I want to explain my criticisms again a bit more. When I say I dislike the graphics I was mostly trying to convey that from a casual gamer's perspective (honestly, I never cared too much about it and even so they werent that bad) and the fact that way too many gamers will de facto not touch a game because of the mentioned reasons.

 

Clearly I've demonstrated to be a newcomer to the spiderweb scene and I've made no illusion I was not. My intention from the very start has be rather naive it seems, that is try to be a little piece in the puzzle to make these games more popular by giving a tiny bit of "casual" (I actually hate this term) imput into the debate

(Changes that I mentioned ideally wouldn't necessarily mean a simplified or changed game in any significat way that would completely alienate the fanbase).

 

 

 

I think it's sort of hilarious (and shows how far you are removed from the Spiderweb fanbase) that you say this about Avadon, of all of Spiderweb's games. Avernum 3 might be more vulnerable to this criticism, but Avadon is one of Spiderweb's shorter (and relatively plot-heavy) games. As Alo said, these games may not be the games for you, if you think this.

 

I doubt that more expensive graphics would boost Spiderweb's sales enough to justify the cost. The crowd that Jeff sells to doesn't care. We liked Exile, back in the day.

 

I made no claim I'm anywhere near the established Spiderweb fanbase, but your argument is rather shortsighted. I might just as well call myself a fan of the game(s), just not an oldschool fan like yourself. I see no need to dismiss any fan based on their points of view or the time they've been a "true" fan.

About the length surely you cannot say that Avadon is a short title. The fact that other Spiderweb games are much greater in length doesn't change the fact that a 50 hour game is still a long game, but in the context that you mentioned I can completely understand where you're coming from. I can understand how for someone as yourself the game can seem rather short and there is nothing wrong with that. It just shows how people with different background see things completely differently. Without this the gaming world would truly be empty and dry. Cheers to you!

 

If Avadon was any shorter then it wouldn't feel like an SW game at all, and honestly there are enough games out there with better graphics and such, but the main point of SW games is their writing and any cut in length that compromised on the writing will probably alienate a far larger section of his customers then he would gain with any modest improvement in the graphics.

(though I will admit to personal bias, I like his games to be as lengthy as possible, A3 is one of my favorites for that very reason.)

 

Perhaps yes, perhaps not... I still believe that a more focused game would have a much better chance of expanding its market. If that meant that the core of the game was kept (turn based, character system, quality of writing) I don't see how a fan of the games would feel alienated so much that he\she would abandon it (but im sure you guys will crush my naive assumptions:P).

 

Of course I could be completely wrong, so the more people discuss, the better the opinions can get! Please free to criticise my ideas as much as you can : )

 

PS: When I play a really good game, I also want it to be as long as possible too But the thing I can never forgive is content fillers, no matter how great the game is in general. I had the same gripe with Risen a few months ago when I played it. An excellent game with unfortunate content fillers towards the end. In those moments I really wonder if those extra few hours of gameplay are really worth it....

[Lilith]

About the length surely you cannot say that Avadon is a short title. The fact that other Spiderweb games are much greater in length doesn't change the fact that a 50 hour game is still a long game, but in the context that you mentioned I can completely understand where you're coming from. I can understand how for someone as yourself the game can seem rather short and there is nothing wrong with that. It just shows how people with different background see things completely differently. Without this the gaming world would truly be empty and dry. Cheers to you!

 

People certainly can call Avadon a short title, and fans did complain about how short it was after it came out. I'd say 50 hours is an overestimate: a lot of players finished it completely in 20-30 hours, which is short for an RPG and certainly short for the subgenre of RPG that Avadon falls in.

[Sudanna]

However long it takes to complete Avadon, it sure feels like it drags.

[Lilith]

Well, I mean, if you don't like the experience of playing the game in the first place then offering more of that experience won't make you more likely to buy it, but neither will offering less of it.

[titan357]

maybe these kind of games are just not for you?

As far as length, 50 hours is literately nothing. More so for a game of this type. I have well over 2000 hours in morrowind, and about 1000 in Oblivion.

 

Of all the games I played last year and this year Avernum escape from the pit and Avadon has been above and beyond.

Dragon age 2, mass effect 3, farycry 3. All of those games gave me less play time and less enjoyment. All of those games are "the next best thing" to ever happen.

 

I grew up on these types of games, not everyone did. I remember when Wing commander Privateer came out on cd rom, I remember crusader remorse and regret.

I remember fallout 1 and 2.

 

These types of games are not for everyone,but for me to have found them is a breath of fresh air in such a stale market. Voice acting is destroying games, it costs too much and you get too little content. Graphics<story. Text>Voice.

 

Its so great to have a honest rpg that is focused on the story and your character/party in these days.

[ymoc]

maybe these kind of games are just not for you?

As far as length, 50 hours is literately nothing. More so for a game of this type. I have well over 2000 hours in morrowind, and about 1000 in Oblivion.

 

Of all the games I played last year and this year Avernum escape from the pit and Avadon has been above and beyond.

Dragon age 2, mass effect 3, farycry 3. All of those games gave me less play time and less enjoyment. All of those games are "the next best thing" to ever happen.

 

I grew up on these types of games, not everyone did. I remember when Wing commander Privateer came out on cd rom, I remember crusader remorse and regret.

I remember fallout 1 and 2.

 

These types of games are not for everyone,but for me to have found them is a breath of fresh air in such a stale market. Voice acting is destroying games, it costs too much and you get too little content. Graphics<story. Text>Voice.

 

Its so great to have a honest rpg that is focused on the story and your character/party in these days.

 

Haha I think we honestly can't take you as a valid benchmark concerning game length... Let's be realistic for a moment. Anyone who plays games for a hobby and entertainment doesn't and CAN'T spend anywhere near triple digit number of hours playing games. You must realize you've spent at least 125 DAYS playing just the Elder Scrolls titles. Usually people do have other things in their lives besides games and therefore I think the concept of what constitutes a long game can't be made by extremists on either side.

The same way I can't claim that an hour long song is a short one, just because I normally listen to atmospheric songs that stretch into hours. It just doesn't work like that.

 

Going to the next issue: I F**** LOVE Crusader too hahaha. One of the best classics for me.

 

I don't think voice acting is destroying games. Look at the adventure games: Curse of the Monkey Island is probably the best in the series and in my opinion the best adventure game ever made. It's not the voice acting, it's the game design that ruins games. Though I agree that RPGs can do well and sometimes even better without it, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a game destroyer.

 

And about the graphics....I don't think we can honestly compare Spiderweb games to titles such as Fallout 1 and Fallout 2....The thing that Avadons is really missing in this department IMHO is not so much the shiny graphics, but the character design and level design. It is way too bland and artistically lacking to be able to compare to the mentioned classics. That is my biggest complaint. Not FX, not hi-res textures, not 3D\2D... Spiderweb would benefit so much from a character designer or artist...not necessarily even a full timer, maybe even a senior undergraduate student who'd be willing to make some designs for dirt cheap.

 

You say graphics are not important. I can agree to a point, but I would say that games are primarily a visual media. You perceive it with your eyes first. If you are only interested in stories you can read a book and I'm not even joking. Books are wonderful ! When you're reading a book you are the master of the illusion. You create the images in your mind. When you play a game that is no longer in your command. You only get what the developer was able to create. It is much more limiting and therefore subject to harsher standards. It just comes with the territory.

 

PS: I wonder if you've played STALKER yet...it's a FPS\RPG mix with atmosphere so thick you could cut it with a knife.

[Ohsky]

I always wondered how people count the hours they spend playing a game in question. Some games come with a counter, like the Awesome Eschalon series.

 

First Spiderweb game i played, was Avadon, didn´t felt short at all. The level cap was quite a . I accepted it as a different kind of Rpg. With it´s limitations, it was still fun to play with.

[Lilith]

I always wondered how people count the hours they spend playing a game in question. Some games come with a counter, like the Awesome Eschalon series.

 

Most Spiderweb games are available on Steam now, and Steam will tell you how long you've played a particular game, so if you've bought them through Steam that's one way to know. Otherwise, well, you figure out how many days you've been playing and for how many hours a day and you estimate based on that.

[Ohsky]

No way to make a proper estimation on my case, as it´s quite irregular.

[titan357]

PS: I wonder if you've played STALKER yet...it's a FPS\RPG mix with atmosphere so thick you could cut it with a knife.

I didn't care much for stalker.

Not sure if I just wasnt "in the mood" for it or what. Metro 2033 is ok though.

 

I always wondered how people count the hours they spend playing a game in question. Some games come with a counter, like the Awesome Eschalon series.

 

First Spiderweb game i played, was Avadon, didn´t felt short at all. The level cap was quite a . I accepted it as a different kind of Rpg. With it´s limitations, it was still fun to play with.

Morrowind has a handy dandy hour counter on the save.

I have had many seprate plays with over 600 hours on each one.

 

Most Spiderweb games are available on Steam now, and Steam will tell you how long you've played a particular game, so if you've bought them through Steam that's one way to know. Otherwise, well, you figure out how many days you've been playing and for how many hours a day and you estimate based on that.

Yesp, I finsihed Avernum at 37 hours and Avadon yesterday with 33.

 

No way to make a proper estimation on my case, as it´s quite irregular.

[Death Knight]

You see this is where I not only disagree but I dont understand any of this at all. The graphics on Eschalon 1 and 2, Avadon 1 and likely 2 are great because they mimic the best of graphics from that era of gaming. The baldurs gate 1 and 2, Icewind Dale 1 and 2 and Planescape all (like Avadon) have great and fluid graphics. Compare that to today and what is out there. Dragon Age and Mass Effect only have graphics as their pluses. Other than that, Dragon Age and Mass Effect have a crappy story, no originality compared to the other games, and really nothing that their older games do better.

[Alorael at Large]

The Infinity Engine games have two huge edges over Spiderweb games: many more sprites and hand-painted backgrounds rather than tilling. It makes the scenery far more attractive. The spell effects are more varied and more detailed too. Spiderweb games are retro, but they're more retro than Baldur's Gate. As for recent Bioware games, you don't have to like them but they've got more going for them than just pretty pictures. It's a matter of opinion, of course, but I'd rate Dragon Age combat over Spiderweb's, its story was fine, and its characters far deeper than any who show up in any Spiderweb game (characterization is a chronic weakness). Mass Effect is harder to compare as a shooter hybrid, but again, the story and characters hold up well, gameplay is fun, and while you don't get Geneforge-level choices in story direction you do get more input than most games give you.

 

—Alorael, who won't say any one game is better than the others. It's a matter of preference, and he's not sure he enjoyed Spiderweb games any more or less than Bioware's. But he does find it funny that you think Spiderweb's graphics compare to even Baldur's Gate, because they really don't. Jeff just cannot afford painting.

[Death Knight]

Maybe I'm bias due to the other excellent features of Spiderweb, but I just can't for the life of me get into the view and everything and way the looks of Mass Effect and Dragon Age. At least Infinity Engine had the isometric top down view. I haven't played Dragon Age much because of view, but Ive played Mass Effect and owned it at least twice. I eventually sold it as I just found the game to be boring and did not like the view at all. I think the reason I like jeff's games is because I find his graphics to be awesome due to the awesome roleplaying the game has to offer. Its the same reason I like Doom The Roguelike.

 

Im an EXTREMELY picky gamer and usually my first thought when playing a game where I've seen something similar is "Oh jeff did this better in that game", or something like that. In most cases, jeff usually does do a lot of things better

[Sudanna]

. . . Doom the Roguelike has 'awesome roleplaying'?

[Death Knight]

Yeah it does because you can choose any way to make your character regardless of class. So very much like jeff's old system of leveling. Marines, scouts and technicians can use any weapon, melee or ranged regardless. Each class has a specialization trait that is unique to that class and each class has a unique specialization towards every weapon. I was surprised when I read online that technicians get some awesome traits for melee combat as I figured the marine would be king of melee. Of course you don't have to go that route. You can just activate low end to mid end traits.

 

Its one of those games where you either love it or ya hate it. Maybe I'm partial to it, but its a lot of fun

[Sudanna]

That's. . . not roleplaying. That's leveling/character building mechanics. I sometimes play DOOMRL, and it's decent as far as roguelikes go, but the entire genre is kind of characterized by a distinct lack of roleplaying. The roleplaying in A:EftP, for example, is not how you build your characters, it's how you interact with the world. What quests you do, what dialogue options you pick, etc. While RPGs as a genre are (these days) characterized by a progression of avatar power, that's not what roleplaying is.

[Alorael at Large]

And yet it's the core of the RPG genre, which is usually defined far more by mechanics than by any actual roleplaying you might do. I agree that roleplaying is the wrong term, but there's not a better verb for RPGing.

 

—Alorael, who isn't sure what he'd call a game that best excels at roleplaying. Planescape certainly gives you the widest range in being plausibly saintly to diabolical. Geneforge and The Witcher 2 substantially change where you go and what you do based on the choices you make. Mass Effect gives you the same overall plot but by the third game changes an immense number of occurrences on the way based on the previous decisions you've made, so while you can't play anyone but fairly close variations on a theme of Shepard you can accomplish very different things. And these are, in order, a game that's mechanically pretty lousy, a series that's fine, a game that's more action RPG than straight RPG, and a game that's at least as much shooter mechanically as RPG.

[Death Knight]

That's. . . not roleplaying. That's leveling/character building mechanics. I sometimes play DOOMRL, and it's decent as far as roguelikes go, but the entire genre is kind of characterized by a distinct lack of roleplaying. The roleplaying in A:EftP, for example, is not how you build your characters, it's how you interact with the world. What quests you do, what dialogue options you pick, etc. While RPGs as a genre are (these days) characterized by a progression of avatar power, that's not what roleplaying is.

 

Im not really sure about this as I've just been getting into rogue likes. Last time I went to indiedb.com I checked under rpg the following columns-Roleplaying, Hack and Slash, and Roguelike.

 

Its confusing but if its fun than I like it. What genre would Doom RL be under- strategy/ turn based tactics? I'd like to know as rogue likes have been very fun for me lately. Thanks.

[Lilith]

 

 

Im not really sure about this as I've just been getting into rogue likes. Last time I went to indiedb.com I checked under rpg the following columns-Roleplaying, Hack and Slash, and Roguelike.

 

Its confusing but if its fun than I like it. What genre would Doom RL be under- strategy/ turn based tactics? I'd like to know as rogue likes have been very fun for me lately. Thanks.

 

it's a roleplaying game that features little to no roleplaying

 

welcome to the wonderful world of the english language

[Alorael at Large]

Marain is made for poets, pedants, engineers, and programmers. English is made by and for the lowest bidder.

 

—Alorael, who would call it a hallmark of the roguelike genre that they involve no actual playing of roles, just mass slaughter. There are some exceptions, of course, but that's not the root of the genre. Kill monster, take stuff, go down and do it again.

[Lilith]

Marain is made for poets, pedants, engineers, and programmers. English is made by and for the lowest bidder.

 

—Alorael, who would call it a hallmark of the roguelike genre that they involve no actual playing of roles, just mass slaughter. There are some exceptions, of course, but that's not the root of the genre. Kill monster, take stuff, go down and do it again.

 

basically "roleplaying game" is a term that only makes sense at all if you look at the early-1970s wargaming community it emerged from. within that community the idea of treating the constructs through which you interact with the game as anything other than disposable pawns really was revolutionary, and it even surprised and confused gary gygax when people first started doing it

[Valdain the King]

That's. . . not roleplaying. That's leveling/character building mechanics. I sometimes play DOOMRL, and it's decent as far as roguelikes go, but the entire genre is kind of characterized by a distinct lack of roleplaying. The roleplaying in A:EftP, for example, is not how you build your characters, it's how you interact with the world. What quests you do, what dialogue options you pick, etc. While RPGs as a genre are (these days) characterized by a progression of avatar power, that's not what roleplaying is.

 

What is funny about all this talk is that sometimes games like Avernum might have some bases covered, but in other areas it completely sucks. You can interact with your world in the remake true but the leveling system is terrible. Each character that you make maxes out every area in their build by endgame. There really are so few build combinations. There is just melee, ranged, mage and priest. Any of the builds that are not optimized are just trash. Dualwielding is the only way for melee. Bows are the only way for ranged. You might as well remove polearms from the game as there is no reason to use spears or sword and board in these games.

[Sudanna]

Not so, actually! RaustBlackDragon has a chronicle of an extraordinary collection of unconventional character builds that he had great success with - on Torment, no less. Take a look at http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/18414-my-victorious-heroes/ for the builds he used and at http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/18753-raustblackdragons-guide-to-fun-party-building/ for his guide to fun party building.

[The Reverend]

Bows are the only way for ranged.

An archer character can actually use thrown weapons on occasion just fine, when they need to do a little extra damage. Their high dexterity makes thrown weapons perfectly viable, even with no points to thrown weapons. And the sharpshooter skill that an archer will likely max out also applies to thrown weapons. They just can't be the primary attack, because the supply of the "good" thrown weapons is fairly limited.

[Alorael at Large]

Any of the builds that are not optimized are just trash. Dualwielding is the only way for melee. Bows are the only way for ranged. You might as well remove polearms from the game as there is no reason to use spears or sword and board in these games.

Not optimal is not the same as trash. I don't play on torment, so I can't really speak to that high level, but on normal I've had perfectly good times without maxing anything. My mage-priests, spear-wielding archer, and dual-wielding swordsman dabbling in priest spells all did fine, thank you very much.

 

Avernum isn't perfectly balanced in that you can squeeze better numbers out of certain builds, often very extreme builds, than other options. You don't need to, though, even on torment, and you can have plenty of fun not doing so.

 

—Alorael, who vastly prefers this to games that make you think you have build options when by the end game it becomes clear that some choices are just not going to pan out. Not having any high-end magical axes, for instance, or suddenly taking away the sneaky and talky alternatives to combat. Making enemies all immune to physical damage or, alternately, magic. Having scripted ambushes that prevent ranged characters from being ranged. At least Avernum is pretty good about not springing those lovely tricks.

[The Reverend]

My mage-priests, spear-wielding archer, and dual-wielding swordsman dabbling in priest spells all did fine, thank you very much.

The latter is actually a very good build for a tank on torment. It lets you max out both hardiness and resistance. And healing spells don't depend on intelligence, so if you put priest spells up to 8 (necessary to max out resistance) your tank can also be an effective healer, freeing up your dedicated priest(s) to cast divine fire and retribution.

[stilltim]

What he's said, and what I think I can accept, is that his games are not for everyone. They're for a niche: players who forgive old, simple graphics because they like long, often complex games. (It's worth noting that Avadon is probably the shortest Spiderweb game, and by a fair margin. Nethergate might be similar in length, but it's really two short games in one.) You don't like the kind of game he makes very much, and that's fine. Spiderweb's offerings aren't geared to appeal to a mass market because Spiderweb doesn't have the resources to compete in the big leagues. Jeff has carved out his little corner of a market that doesn't get a lot of love (long-form, old-school-eque RPGs) and he's happy with it.

 

I've also been playing Avadon on an Andoid tablet... and frankly I disagree with almost everything the OP said. (Although I do agree that some game controls are OCCASIONALLY a little clumsy on even a 10-inch tablet). Spiderweb is creating games in a niche that has been neglected for a long, long time... and they're doing an excellent job of it judging by this game.

 

When I was in high school and college, I was big fan of Origin's Ultima series. I played most of the games in that series through to the finish. Avadon does a wonderful job of capturing the feel of the best of those games... in somewhat higher resolution... and frankly, with far fewer resources than Origin had for the later entries in this series. It's really great to have games in this genre again. I would hate to see Spiderweb abandon this niche to chase the flashier gaming style of more recent games.

 

I'm reminded of what actually happened to the Ultima series when Origin decided to do exactly what the OP here is suggesting. I remember seeing Richard Garriott (creator of the Ultima series) at Gencon while Ultima 7 was in development. He spoke then about the shift in paradigms that was going on from clunky, primitive sound and graphics to the flashy, multimedia affairs that have now become the rule. He felt that Origin was doomed if they didn't follow the trends and make flashier, more arcade-like games. Perhaps he was right for a company of Origin's size, but it spelled the end of the Ultima series. Ultima 7 turned out similar to previous games in the series, just a little prettier. The next iteration, however, was a disaster. The awful Ultima 8 ("Pagan") attempted to incorporate more of an arcade game feel... but it really felt like a really slow-paced, talky and frustrating platformer. Imagine a version of Super Mario brothers where you had to repeat every level 50 times because the jumps were too hard and in between, you had to run around talking to folks to find out important quest information. It was a disaster. Suitably chastised, Origin eventually released an Ultima 9 that was more like a traditional RPG, but this time using 1st person interface to try and capture the recent success of 1st person shooters. I gather this game was probably similar to the Elder Scrolls games, but the free demo they released was so buggy a lot of folks (including myself) couldn't even get it to run. So, this is the one game in the series I never played. Although Origin had one more success with the MMORPG Ultima:Online (a return to the game's tile based roots), the single player Ultimas were dead. And, I think it's for a simple reason: they forgot what made those games fun and compelling to their audience. So, they abandoned that audience to chase a different audience who were not fans of theirs... and created a disaster for themselves.

 

I hope Spiderweb has the guts to stick to their principles. They're doing a wonderful job of creating games in this genre and I look forward to many more. As someone who actually got pretty far in creating my own game in this genre (back in the day), I'm in awe of someone who can finish a creation of this magnitude on their own.

[Juan Carlo]

I liked Avadon fine as it was the first Spiderweb game I ever played. But then I played all the Geneforges and most of the Avernums and it's really not on their level at all (although it is light years better than either Avernum 4 or 5).

 

A few things it does well, though:

 

-Boss Battles (I think Avadon has the best designed boss battles of any SW game)

-Companions with fleshed out personalities and backstories

-I generally liked the mostly political focus, although I can see how some might see it as dry