A:EftP - Robin Hood: Avernites in Tights (a.k.a. an Archery-based Torment Playthrough)

[The Reverend]

As I was working my way through my Anama rules torment playthrough (no mage spells, everyone must train at least a little priest spells - see link in my sig for the full details), I got the idea that an archer-heavy playthrough might be interesting. Archers have often gotten a bad rap in some of the A:EFTP analysis, but on my first playthrough (admittedly on hard, not torment), I found my archer to be a very useful member of the party.

 

High dexterity gives very good evasion to most attacks, and also allows you to act early, which can be advantageous. The big weakness is cold and acid, but I plan to put some points into endurance as well, and also to look for items that boost those resistances. Also, when you have characters that have a decent starting evasion, the evasion bonus of various armors starts to come in to play. Once you get the hardest enemies' to-hit chances below the 95% maximum threshold (which high DEX easily does), the evasion bonuses from items (and gymnastics) can lower it further. With Torment's 30% off the top penalty to resistances (which effectively limits you to 60% resistance), I'm think evasion might be a reasonable defensive strategy.

 

Without further ado, here's the rules and build plan I'm thinking of. Comments/suggestions are welcome.

 

Proposed rules:

 

1) Every character is at least somewhat proficient in archery (based on the Anama priest rule). They must start with at least one point of bows, and train at least one additional point every 10 levels (i.e., they must have bows at 2 by level 10, 3 by level 20, 4 by level 30, etc.). They must also put at least 1 stat point into DEX every N levels (I'm leaning towards N=6, but I'm not sure yet).

 

2) Every character's primary physical weapon should be a bow (spells are allowed, of course). I'm not going to limit melee/pole skills training, because you need them for hardiness. But, melee attacks should only be used either ( a ) in the tutorial dungeon (there's only one bow there, and you don't get it until part way through), ( b ) if it's impossible to use a bow (e.g., all enemies are adjacent to you and you can't move), or ( c ) as part of a DEX-based battle discipline (you gotta let archers use Blade Sweep, because they are the ones who can make the best use of it).

 

2) No 100% min-maxing (hat tip to RBD): At most 2/3 of each characters stat points may be allocated to any single stat. This is based on RBD's rule, but loosened a bit (his rule was at most 1/2). I like being able to have a major stat and a minor stat, as long as they don't get too out of balance. By level 35, this ends up being at most 22 (out of 33) points in your primary stat, which is not far off from what I did in my Anama playthrough (Brutus allocated 24 to his primary stat, and the rest allocated 25).

 

Basic build plan (these are subject to change as I get a feel for how these guys play, of course):

 

Robin Hood: The leader of our band of merry men (and one woman). Robin's a pure archer, and focuses his training on maximizing all of the skills that improve his bow use. His defense will mainly come via the evasion he gets from dexterity (plus some endurance and items with cold bonuses). Skill points: Max out sharpshooter, lethal blows, gymnastics, and, yes, sniper. It's been argued that sniper may be the weakest of these, but I still feel it is useful for a pure archer. Excess points either to additional Bows, or Hardiness via Melee. 2/3 stat points to DEX, 1/3 to END. Traits: 5 x DEX, 3 x Sure aim, 3 x Health, Negotiatior, 4 x END

 

Little John (who is not so little): Little John is Robin's right hand man, and the group's defensive specialist. He also has recently become fascinated with the art of healing, and is taking lessons from Friar Tuck. This will be an Archer-Priest-Tank (via Evasion and Resistances) build. The skill and stat point focus will be on avoiding (DEX, gym), reducing (hardiness, resistance), and survivng (END) damage, and also healing the party since his damage output will be the lowest of the group (similar to Brother Brutus in my Anama playthrough). Max out Hardiness (via 8 + 2 bought to melee) and Resistance (via 8 to priest spells, 8 + 2 bought to spellcraft). This should require 44 points, out of the 65 you get by level 35. For the remaining 21 points: 8 bows (plus 2 bought), 3 sharpshooter, 10 gymnastics (buying 2 more brings it to 12, which gives +24% evasion to stack on top of DEX- and END-based evasion). 2/3 stat points to DEX, 1/3 to END. Traits: 5 x DEX, 5 x END, 3 x Health, Negotiator, 2 more (maybe parry mastery or sure aim??)

 

Friar Tuck: Tuck is the jolly old clergyman of the band. When he's not telling a joke or swilling back some ale, he's pretty competent with the priest spells. He'll be primary a priest, with the archery minor required by the rule set. Standard priest build, except for the required DEX and BOW points. Not sure if I'll do 2/3 INT, 1/3 DEX or 2/3 INT, 1/6 DEX, 1/6 END.

 

Maid Marian: Maid Marian is the party's mage (she recently developed on interest in magic, and being thrown into Avernum will force her to study it more thoroughly - I'm still work out the full back story for the party...). Primary mage, with the required archery minor. Just like Tuck's build, except focused on mage spells. It sure will be nice to have someone who can cast dispel barrier - that's the biggest thing I missed in my Anama playthrough. Having to run all over the place trying to scrounge up one more piercing crystal, and having to ignore all level 3 barriers, was no fun.

 

Difficulty: Torment, to make it interesting (and since I've already seen that archery is effective at lower levels).

 

Edit: Adding another rule (primary weapon must be bow). Also, did y'all know that b followed by ) gets converted to the emoticon? And c surrounded by () without any spaces gets converted to © ?

Edited January 17, 2013 by The Reverend

[Randomizer]

The main problems with this build are:

 

1) There are plenty of places where you can get swarmed into melee only, although with a party of 4 there should be at least one target that isn't in melee with that player character.

 

2) Physical damage doesn't work as well later in the game versus boss monsters. However there are a few special bows that at least do some damage that isn't physical.

 

Good luck

[RaustBlackDragon]

This sounds awesome! I can't wait to see how this turns out

 

Also, may I recommend a spellslinger like my Lucille? She was utterly DEADLY, one of my favorite characters I've ever made And see if you can get Lethal Blow for a magic user or two

[The Reverend]

For issue 1, as you say it hopefully won't happen too often - but when it does it's a great time for a blade sweep! But yes, after that you're stuck until the fatigue wears off. John can still act as a healer then, but Robin won't be able to do much.

 

For issue 2, the same problem arises with sword fighters - although they do have more options for swords that do some non-physical damage. But even then, their damage is typically reduced.

 

In general, the thing that I think may make this build workable is that magic users are the main damage dealers once you get into the mid-game (and forcing them to train in bows doesn't hurt at all - it just gets them closer to battle disciplines). Your physical attack characters mostly do mop up work and protect the spell casters. The archers will do less damage than the sword users, but I think their high dexterity will make them survive longer and thus be more effective at protecting the mages and priests.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

I think the party will do well, enemies can't really surround more than one character of the party, and even then killing one of them will be easy, the only point is the lesser damage dealing of archers but that as you mentioned is balanced by their higher survivability.

[The Reverend]

Also, may I recommend a spellslinger like my Lucille? She was utterly DEADLY, one of my favorite characters I've ever made And see if you can get Lethal Blow for a magic user or two

Lucille was the one who had high gymnastics (via bows) to go with her mage spells, which allowed her to sometimes cast as many as 5 spells in a round (with haste, battle frenzy, and adrenaline rush)? That does sound like an intriguing build for Marian. I just started my playthrough (Lagran just ran away - little does he know I'll get my revenge later!) I'll try to do an update over the weekend.

[RaustBlackDragon]

Lucille was the one who had high gymnastics (via bows) to go with her mage spells, which allowed her to sometimes cast as many as 5 spells in a round (with haste, battle frenzy, and adrenaline rush)?

 

Yep, that's the one

[RaustBlackDragon]

Again, I should stress that one of your spellcasters should try to get lethal blow, it's a VERY rare opportunity for mages that you should seize and test out now that the opportunity has presented itself

[The Reverend]

Again, I should stress that one of your spellcasters should try to get lethal blow, it's a VERY rare opportunity for mages that you should seize and test out now that the opportunity has presented itself

I usually buy a couple points of it for each of my main spellcasters, and often give them items that boost it as well. But I hadn't thought of maxing it out before, since it has so many prereqs. But, since I already have to put some points into bows, that does make it easier (just put some points into sharpshooter). If the path went bows-gymnastics-lethal blow, it would be even better, alas. I have to think through my final skill point allocations, but perhaps it'd be possible to have one of my spellcasters max out gymnastics and the other lethal blow. That'd mean less points for magical efficiency, though, which I do like on priests especially because of the high costs of their attack spells.

[Earth]

I think the party will do well, enemies can't really surround more than one character of the party, and even then killing one of them will be easy, the only point is the lesser damage dealing of archers but that as you mentioned is balanced by their higher survivability.

 

against large groups 2 chars can be surrounded and in outdoor battles its not possible to make it so that only 1 gets hit.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

against large groups 2 chars can be surrounded and in outdoor battles its not possible to make it so that only 1 gets hit.

If you space your characters well, it takes 16 enemies to surround 2 party members, that's an awful lot, It's lesser if you are up against a wall or something, but really such situations would be rare.

[The Reverend]

against large groups 2 chars can be surrounded and in outdoor battles its not possible to make it so that only 1 gets hit.

You can usually set it up so that 1 or 2 of your characters take most (but not all) of the hits. If those two are the two primary archers Robin and John (2/3 points to DEX, 1/3 to END), you should be able to evade a good percentage of those hits.

 

It's not perfect, certainly, but my goal here with this playthrough is to learn more about how archers and archer variants play, and what their best strategies are. And also to rescue them from the bad rep that they've gotten, by showing that they can be a good (even if not ideal) build that is perfectly viable even on the highest difficulty.

[stranger]

My archer for a torment playthrough:.............................skills to increase -> dexterity, endurance

At level 30

8 melee.............................** buy 2 trained levels

8 bows..............................** buy 2 trained levels

10 hardiness.....................- train only after 10

10 sharpshooter................- train only after 10

10 gymnastics...................- train only after 10

10 lethal blows..................- train only after 10

1 priest

0 spellcraft........................** buy 2 trained levels

2 resistance.......................- train only after 2

4 sniper or parry..........................................................+2 at level 35 (but I never get to level 35)

*** dexterity 5, sure aim 3, negotiator, nimble fingers 2, fortune 2, health, parry mastery

 

I don't really see the point in setting arbitrary limits on character planning.

Why take away points that your mage needs and put it into bows?

It's not like the mage is going to hit anything with their bow.

 

Well I guess you will have your fun anyway.

 

(wow formatting sucks here)

[The Reverend]

I don't really see the point in setting arbitrary limits on character planning.

Why take away points that your mage needs and put it into bows?

It's not like the mage is going to hit anything with their bow.

Well I guess you will have your fun anyway.

This (doing it because its fun). More specifically, setting rules for character building can be fun from a role playing perspective (e.g., my Anama/no mage spells playthrough), or from the perspective of creating an additional challenge (everybody must at least minor in archery/dexterity). Having already beat the game on Torment, if I want a replay to be fun I need to create some extra challenge (and I've never really enjoyed playing singletons).

 

I'm also genuinely curious to see how a party of all archers and archery minors will fare. Some of the previous analyses on these boards made archers sound like a poor build choice, but I think they aren't as bad as they were made out to be.

[stranger]

I think archery is poorly balanced versus dual-wield melee and mage spells for damage.

Have you tried Avernum Remix©?

[The Reverend]

I've managed to fit in a few hours towards this playthrough over the past week. An update, if anyone is interested ....

 

TL;DR version: Party is level 6, completed silvar sewers, bandit fort, goblin/nephil fort, and rescued prisoners from underground fort. Plus a number of minor quests. About to head to Formello. Build proceeding as planned - looking to try RBD's suggestion, and give my mage-archer maxed out Gymnastics and Lethal Blow (since the Bows allocation requirements of this playthrough mean I'll already get part of the prereqs done).

 

Long version

 

Backstory: Robin Hood was the leader of a small band of rebels based out of the woods of Midori province, in the continent of Valorim. Nominally, their stated goals were to disrupt Empire troop movements and raid Empire supplies throughout the Midori forests as part of larger efforts by a number of loosely affiliated rebel groups to gain independence for Valorim. In reality, Robin Hood and his compatriots mostly spent their time drinking ale and carousing around the campfire. They would occasionally break into Empire supply depots or ambush and rob small bands of soldiers when they needed more ale. Through this they developed modest skills in archery and lockpicking.

 

Friar Tuck was a local clergy man that was sympathetic to Robin and his band (and liked their ale). After a particularly daring raid by the "rebels", Tuck was arrested and brought in for a bit of "forceful interrogation". Worried that Tuck would give up their location (and not wanting to have to relocate and haul around or, worse, abandon their kegs of ale), Robin decided to stage a rescue mission. His very large friend Little John volunteered to join, as did Maid Marian, the daughter of some local minor nobility. She had recently had a falling out with her family and joined Robin's group. Prior to the falling out with her family, Marian had received a small amount of magical training and was eager to test it out on the rescue mission.

 

The rescue initially went smoothly. They snuck into the prison complex via some abandoned sewers, and were able to make it to Tuck's cell without being spotted. They managed to pick the lock and were on their way out when they discovered that it had all been a trap. Two large groups of empire soldiers rushed out of the barracks ahead of them and the cell block behind them. Robin noticed a small unguarded building nearby, and urged Tuck, John, and Marian to follow him in, hoping they could hide or at least form a better defensive position. When they entered, they discovered it housed a large portal. And that it was occupied by more guards, who immediately drew their weapons. Rather than risk capture (and who knows what fate), Robin and his friends jumped through the portal. When they regained their senses at the other end of the portal, they found themselves in a small cave. Marian (who, as the daughter of nobility, had a bit more education) was the first to realize what had happened: "Oh ####, I think we just jumped through a portal to Avernum...". Robin and Tuck looked concerned, but Little John's first reaction was "Do they have any decent ale down here?"

 

Build Plan: As described in my initial post, except for Maid Marian. I will be trying to make her into a mage with maxed out Gymnastics and Lethal Blow. RaustBlackDragon had great success with his high gymnastics mage, and the bows requirements of this playthrough mean that I'll already be forced to get bows to 4, and 4 more points gets it up to 8. Two more bought points allows maxing out gymnastics. Then, since bows will already be up to 10, each point of lethal blow will require two skill points (1 sharpshooter and 1 lethal blow). Lethal blow increases damage by 2.5% (Slarty did an analysis once that showed that it actually increases the critical chance by 5% not 3%). Adding extra points to mage spells effectively gives about half of that by the end of the game, since your mage spells level will be around 80 assuming a standard allocation of points to INT and mage spells. So, spending 2 points to get a single level of lethal blow is about as effective, in terms of end-game damage, as spending 2 points to get 2 levels of mage spells (assuming you get at least 17 mage spells points first in order to get to Arcane Blow). I believe there are enough skill points to get 17 mage, and max out spellcraft, gymnastics, and lethal blow (plus their prereqs).

 

Also, I will be giving everyone the Nimble Fingers Trait to reflect their history as rebels and thieves.

 

Progress: The party is level 6, almost level 7. They've completed the Silvar sewers (Droknar), the bandit and nephil/goblin forts, and rescued the prisoners from the underground nepharim fort, as well as a number of minor quests. They are one thier way to Formello now. The going has been fairly easy so far (longbow damage is quite nice in the early game). Marian also has icy rain and Tuck has call the storm, both of which are great for enemy crowd control.

[RaustBlackDragon]

How has this been going? Any further progress? I'd love to see what you've done with this so far

[The Reverend]

Funny you should ask - I basically stopped playing A:EFTP in late January, because real life got way too hectic ... It's still fairly hectic, but has finally mellowed out a bit to the point where just yesterday I was finally able to open this up again for the first time in months. I'm trying to reacquaint myself with these builds and where I was in the playthrough. The characters are all level 9, and I think they just completed rescuing the Formello mayor's necklace and clearing out the rest of that fort. So not much further than I was in the 1/25 update ....

[Questionably Legal]

But...But... Robin Hood (the original) was supposed to be skilled at quarterstaff and sword fighting too.

 

. . . At least that's all I could think while reading your initial post.