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Death Knight Death Knight

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:39 AM #36 Five Factor Personality Model

The D and D personalities are very much flawed. The reasoning is that chaotic-neutral makes no sense. Jarlaxle is chaotic-neutral yet he makes the right choice to save Drizzt because Drizzt is a good guy. He does this out of altruism so he would be considered chaotic/good. Yet he is made neutral just because he kills a few people. Here's a news flash-killing bad people isn't going to make you indirectly bad. If anything it should be considered a good thing.

The problem with this is that as soon as a neutral good character kills an unarmed/noncombative evil guy without giving him a chance he is considered evil/neutral which is wrong. If the guy was evil it is a good thing. Im not talking laws, they only get in the way. Laws are a way of making people stay in line and evil not so bad.

If the world was to turn to anarchy tomorrow, everyone that was good would be neutral eventually as they would have to kill a bit. They would have to steal, etc. Laws make people more civilized and in my eyes are a good thing. If all the laws went away, we'd have a major problem. People that cant get their food, medicine, etc. would get desperate. If you've seen some of the MILD behavior we had in Hurricane Sandy (NJ) you'd catch the drift right away. People were nuts.

Im not saying the people in the world are naturally bad, but you need a strong law system to combat evil even if it doesn't cure all of it.

Although it doesn't matter, my personality has always come up Chaotic/Neutral but in many ways is more True/Neutral, Lawful/Neutral. I don't bother people so long as they don't bother me or do something mean, sadistic. I can be terribly mean/sadistic to people that bully others or myself. I dislike any form of bullying and thus that is my one traits.
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The Hero The Hero

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:01 PM #37 Five Factor Personality Model

Quote

Are we talking about D&D right now?

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Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.  (Rom 12:17)


Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.  (Rom 12:19)


Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.  (Rom 12:21)


Death Knight Death Knight

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 07:02 PM #38 Five Factor Personality Model

D and D is always cool especially Baldurs Gate. I really think the alignments even though some weren't completely correct, were best done in that game series. The only thing that is lame is that Montaron wasn't a playable character in BG 2. He was my favorite character until Dorn came around.
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Arancaytar Arancaytar

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 11:41 PM #39 Five Factor Personality Model

View PostDeath Knight, on 01 August 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

The D and D personalities are very much flawed. The reasoning is that chaotic-neutral makes no sense. Jarlaxle is chaotic-neutral yet he makes the right choice to save Drizzt because Drizzt is a good guy. He does this out of altruism so he would be considered chaotic/good. Yet he is made neutral just because he kills a few people. Here's a news flash-killing bad people isn't going to make you indirectly bad. If anything it should be considered a good thing.

I really don't follow your argument at all. An alignment does not simply describe your ultimate goal but the way you choose to pursue that goal. If you showed compassion to a bad person, should that be an act of Evil? If it isn't, then neither should killing someone evil (in itself) be considered an act of Good. It would be a Neutral act at best, and only if it were immediately necessary to defend someone. (I'd give paladins some leeway there because they essentially have a divine license to fight evil, but note that even a paladin couldn't get away with killing a defenseless Evil-aligned person.)

That means the alignment system isn't some scoring system of moral worth, because it can be argued in most situations that there is no such system. Being Chaotic-Neutral ("I did what I had to do") doesn't make you a worse person than being Chaotic-Good.

Death Knight Death Knight

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:46 AM #40 Five Factor Personality Model

Whether its D and D or not D and D-I still wouldn't find anything wrong with offing an evil person. If I had a chance and could prevent world war 2, I would take Hitler down a notch and hope for the best. I could care less whether its evil, neutral or good-its preventing a future tragedy which is what matters. I don't think you can get away with being nicey nice. Evil people like that have no rules and therefore neither should the person that takes them down.

How is killing a defenseless evil person bad?
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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:04 AM #41 Five Factor Personality Model

How can you definitively declare that someone is "evil"? It's hard enough to define evil, let alone use it as a concrete factor in determining someone's right to live.

Death Knight Death Knight

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 12:16 PM #42 Five Factor Personality Model

I always thought that acting outside the norms of common good/altruistic behavior would be considered evil. Someone killing another person without a reason or to kill a mass amount of people for no reason. Those are strong indicators that the person is not playing with a full deck and is evil. Anything that is pointless murder or stuff like that. Rapists and child sexual abusers should be executed without a trial. The problem is the justice system in America awards the bad guys with life imprisonments/temporary insanity. Its a disgrace.
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Arancaytar Arancaytar

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 12:52 PM #43 Five Factor Personality Model

Q:

Quote

How is killing a defenseless evil person bad?
A:

Quote

acting outside the norms of common good/altruistic behavior would be considered evil.

And there we go.

Anyway, I just brought up the alignment system as a brief aside, not to derail the original topic.

Iffy Iffy

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 12:55 PM #44 Five Factor Personality Model

Evil is an arbitrary thing, or, at best, purely semantics. Debating it is "fun", but in reality it is a concept that holds no bearing.

Edit: Point is, probably should stay on topic
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Dikiyoba Dikiyoba

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 01:16 PM #45 Five Factor Personality Model

View PostDeath Knight, on 03 August 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Rapists and child sexual abusers should be executed without a trial. The problem is the justice system in America awards the bad guys with life imprisonments/temporary insanity. Its a disgrace.

1. There is no way to determine whether people are guilty or "evil". Evidence can be and is misleading or faked. Confessions can be and are coerced. People don't carry little flashing alignment signs. There's simply no way to tell.

2. The USA has and continues to execute or give life sentences to thousands of demonstrably innocent people, even with trials. Moving to executions without trials would magnify that problem and result in the murder of tens of thousands of people.

3. Killing people, except to defend yourself or another person from a clear and immediate danger, is wrong. You can't kill someone who is defenseless. You can't kill someone who is minding their own business. You can't kill anyone who isn't currently attempting to harm anyone. To do otherwise is wrong.

4. To paraphrase Sam Vimes, you can't be a good guy and do bad guy things. If you kill people, you are the bad guy, no matter what the intent behind the killing was.

5. Killing people makes you evil.

6. KILLING PEOPLE MAKES YOU EVIL.

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Randomizer Randomizer

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 06:28 PM #46 Five Factor Personality Model

An example of chaotic good character.  Or at least justifying behavior as due to alignment.
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Dintiradan Dintiradan

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:49 PM #47 Five Factor Personality Model

Arguments about the D&D alignment grid have been going on for decades, and will continue on for decades more. My two cents' worth:

- Personally, I'd consider killing a defenceless Evil person to be a Chaotic (or at the very least a non-Lawful) act, and not (necessarily) an Evil act. Killing someone in the heat of battle is one thing, executing them when they could be bound and brought to trial is another. You're taking the law into your own hands, not a very Lawful thing to do. That said, this can be setting-dependant: perhaps Paladins are officially sanctioned to act as judge, jury, and executioner. Think Spectres from the Mass Effect universe.

- Again personally, where I draw the line between Good and Neutral is how much you're willing to sacrifice. Most Neutral people hate to see Evil acts done, and help others out when they can. But they wouldn't destroy themselves financially -- or literally -- to save someone else. Likewise, the difference between a Neutral and a Lawful character is that the Neutral character follows the law, but the Lawful character upholds it.

- Ultimately, this is all subject to DM fiat, because spells like Detect Evil, Chaos Hammer, Protection from Good, etc., are things that exist. To pick an example, I once made a Dwarven Cleric of Tiamat (draconic goddess of greed, essentially). Completely amoral, utterly avaricious, a social Darwinian... think an over-the-top Gordon Gekko and you've got a good start. But. He stayed on the good sides of the powers that be, didn't do anything that could possibly be tracked back to him? Why would he? Adventuring paid much better than crime did. I put him down as Unaligned (this was 4e), but my DM had me change it to Evil. I base alignment on actions, he bases it on motives. *shrugs*

- Another important point is that alignment is a description, not a guideline. Think of it as an average of your previous actions, a shorthand way of giving new players an idea of what your character's like -- and not a straitjacket that compels you to take certain actions. I've only read one book with Jarlaxle in it, and he seemed pretty much CN. Maybe he does save one dude out of the goodness of his heart, but one Good act does not make someone good. To pick another example from another campaign, I once played a LG Dwarf Fighter. Devoted to restoring his homeland under rightful rule, risked his life again and again (and gave it again and again -- this was D&D) for the good of his homeland (and ultimately the multiverse -- this was Planescape). He also tortured his captives for information, and then summarily executed them (suffice to say it's interesting playing a Lawful character when you're literally the last legitimate authority in the land).
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Student of Trinity Student of Trinity

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:05 AM #48 Five Factor Personality Model

View PostIffy, on 03 August 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Evil is an arbitrary thing, or, at best, purely semantics.

No.
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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:21 AM #49 Five Factor Personality Model

View PostStudent of Trinity, on 04 August 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:


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Iffy Iffy

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 05:53 AM #50 Five Factor Personality Model

View PostStudent of Trinity, on 04 August 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Truly awful things have happened and continue to happen. Not saying it doesn't happen. People reach a point to where they can't return from doing truly awful things and they can't be (realistically) helped. Not saying it doesn't happen. What I'm saying is that the concept of evil is thrown around, but I've never seen a solid definition on it. Sometimes it's tagged onto anything awful, sometimes it's described as an ultimatum, that something or something is purely evil or not (which I don't think is correct, since there's a lot of factors going into what someone does). From what I've observed, debating the concept of evil would be like debating perfection—it's hard to do since no one defines it the same way.

(Though then, I made the comment since I thought the thread was going in a completely different direction than it is now. D&D is a bit different since it's more defined, plus it's fantasy.)
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Posted 04 August 2013 - 03:12 PM #51 Five Factor Personality Model

Defining evil rigorously is very difficult. Determining whether a particular person or act is evil is also difficult and heavily argued. It's a continuum, and whether things are far enough along to be unambiguously evil isn't cut and dried. But the existence of evil is hard to argue. Few would call genocide, be it Nazi or Rwanda, or even just wholesale slaughter like the killing fields of Cambodia or the protracted mess of Darfur, anything but evil.

—Alorael, who dislikes D&D alignment applied to anything but D&D, most notably because it takes a very particular take on good and evil without really acknowledging that it's quite deontological and, well, odd. For the most part it's not possible to be a consequentialist good in D&D. You can't slaughter a helpless child even if you know with the certainty that only the magic present in D&D can bring that not slaughtering the child will allow a chain of events leading to unimaginable suffering for multitudes. Ditching binary (or nonary) alignment for shades of gray and real moral quandaries is a good thing in gaming. And, to its credit, something Spiderweb embraced early and fervently.

Lilith Lilith

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 03:59 PM #52 Five Factor Personality Model

alignment in D&D is arguably more about your allegiance to certain supernatural forces that happen to have particular moral outlooks than your moral outlook per se. as a result it works even worse than usual in contexts where those supernatural forces aren't taken as a given

Goldengirl Goldengirl

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:00 PM #53 Five Factor Personality Model

The debate on the definition of evil has been something that has been a sore topic in philosophy for a long time. Are some things always evil, as Kant suggests, no matter what their circumstances? Is evil in the eye of the beholder, as Nietzsche posits? Are actions evil because of their intent, as the deontologists believe, or their consequence, as the (consequential) utilitarians believe?

Let's imagine an adventurer in D&D who does nothing wrong, per se, while doing classically good things (by the D&D definition) such as killing bandits, defeating necromancers, etc. However, this adventurer always refuses quests that involve saving slaves; we'll say it's because the adventurer is lawful. In fact, the adventurer willingly uses weaponry made by slaves, paying money to slave owners for this gear. Slavery is one of those things most people regard as evil; does the adventurer's actions make them evil, because they're helping to finance slavery?
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Little Fyora Little Fyora

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 11:21 PM #54 Five Factor Personality Model

Don't the classification of acts into evil vary between regions, cultures and with time ?

Self-immolation by a recently widowed woman was common (even spoken very highly of) in a few areas some centuries ago, but is now considered by most people as a social evil.
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Dikiyoba Dikiyoba

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 08:55 AM #55 Five Factor Personality Model

View PostGoldenking, on 04 August 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Let's imagine an adventurer in D&D who does nothing wrong, per se, while doing classically good things (by the D&D definition) such as killing bandits, defeating necromancers, etc. However, this adventurer always refuses quests that involve saving slaves; we'll say it's because the adventurer is lawful. In fact, the adventurer willingly uses weaponry made by slaves, paying money to slave owners for this gear. Slavery is one of those things most people regard as evil; does the adventurer's actions make them evil, because they're helping to finance slavery?
As far as DnD alignment goes, that sounds like Lawful Neutral. Doesn't care whether the laws are good or evil, just that following them is important. A Lawful Good character probably wouldn't accept illegal slave-freeing missions, but would attempt to boycott slave-made goods and try to change the laws so that slavery is illegal. A Lawful Evil character would probably own slaves and twist or rewrite laws to the Lawful Evil character's benefit.

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Dintiradan Dintiradan

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 08:05 PM #56 Five Factor Personality Model

You know what we forgot to do this July, everyone? This thing! I saved my results from 2012 and 2013, and now here's your yearly dose of entirely too much information about me!

(Note that this is the same version of the test from when this thread started, and these complaints still apply.)

Looking at the main factors and whatever subfactors changed by more than 15 (in the format 2012-2013-2014):
- Extraversion 0-1-1. Activity level 38-4-0, to be expected.
- Agreeableness 65-70-86. Trust 42-42-79. Morality 29-75-89. Altruism 22-5-13. Not really sure why those numbers changed.
- Conscientiousness 16-22-14. Orderliness 33-63-49. Alright.
- Neuroticism 80-80-64. Anxiety 73-64-55. Anger 14-24-8. Self-Consciousness 89-84-58. Progress!
- Openness 29-19-21. Imagination 61-49-19. Artistic Interests 31-19-50. Emotionality 22-7-6. I may be dead inside, but at least art is neat!

Wheeeeeeeeee!
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Callie Callie

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 08:37 PM #57 Five Factor Personality Model

Sounds about right.  I don't think my results have changed since last time.

Spoiler

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Goldengirl Goldengirl

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 12:27 PM #58 Five Factor Personality Model

Holy necromancy!

(I want that phrase to ring properly in its rich irony, so please take a few moments to enjoy it.)

Spoiler

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sylae sylae

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 05:03 PM #59 Five Factor Personality Model

i guess i'm less neurotic now. and less open. and more jobiness? i dunno

Spoiler


Tevildo Tevildo

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 06:36 PM #60 Five Factor Personality Model

I'm going to avoid taking this test because I'll inevitably feel horrible about the results.

(Which probably says more about my personality than the test would anyway... ;) )

Edgwyn Edgwyn

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 05:39 PM #61 Five Factor Personality Model

Extraversion 19
Agreeableness 45 (should have scored higher)
Conscientiousness 46
Neuroticism 28
Openness 13

Most of the scores seem reasonable to me, except the second.

Øther Øther

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 06:57 PM #62 Five Factor Personality Model

It's been a while since I've last been on these forums, and decided to take this test.  
Extraversion-1
Spoiler

Agreeableness-18
Spoiler

Conscientiousness-29
Spoiler

Neuroticism-72
Spoiler

Openness to experience-33
Spoiler

I'm not exactly sure what this says about me, but there are a few to many extremes in certain areas for my liking.

Lowest score: Friendliness-0
Highest score: Liberalism-99 (Do I win a prize for this or something?)
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Callie Callie

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 09:12 PM #63 Five Factor Personality Model

View PostØther, on 24 September 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Highest score: Liberalism-99 (Do I win a prize for this or something?)
Goldengirl and I both got 99 on liberalism, so you'd have to share the prize with us.
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fenzil fenzil

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 12:22 PM #64 Five Factor Personality Model

Extraversion: 2
Your score on Extraversion is low, indicating you are introverted, reserved, and quiet. You enjoy solitude and solitary activities. Your socializing tends to be restricted to a few close friends.

Agreeableness: 99
Your high level of Agreeableness indicates a strong interest in others' needs and well-being. You are pleasant, sympathetic, and cooperative.

Conscientiousness: 43
Your score on Conscientiousness is average. This means you are reasonably reliable, organized, and self-controlled.

Neuroticism: 99
Your score on Neuroticism is high, indicating that you are easily upset, even by what most people consider the normal demands of living. People consider you to be sensitive and emotional.

Openness to Experience: 88
Your score on Openness to Experience is high, indicating you enjoy novelty, variety, and change. You are curious, imaginative, and creative.

Not sure about the neuroticism one but the rest of the results seem pretty accurate to me.

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Almny Almny

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 06:54 PM #65 Five Factor Personality Model

Looks like I should forego that run at the presidency....

Extraversion: 43
Nothing really surprising here; I'm not cheerful, gregarious, or friendly, but I do like to boss people around.

Agreeableness: 54
Moral, altruistic, and sympathetic... and I make sure to tell everyone.  Also, I trust no one.

Conscientiousness: 41
Achievement-striving of 91 with self discipline 0... I wonder why I haven't defended my dissertation, yet?

Neuroticism: 99
Ummm.... no comment.

Openness to Experience: 99
I wonder how this correlates with neuroticism....


According to my wife, these scores aren't totally inaccurate, but maybe a bit at the extremes.
With[{d = 50}, Image[Table[RandomReal[{0, 1 - ((2 i/d - 1)^2 + (2 j/d - 1)^2)/3}, {3}], {i, 0, d}, {j, 0, d}]]]

Iffy Iffy

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 09:44 PM #66 Five Factor Personality Model

Spoiler

The results from openness to experience was horribly innaccurate, so I did not include most of that. There is far more to art than visual representations of things, after all. Just because I wouldn't like to go to an art museum doesn't instantly make me low on artistic interests, silly psychiatrist.
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Balladeer Balladeer

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 04:42 PM #67 Five Factor Personality Model

View PostIffy, on 25 September 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

There is far more to art than visual representations of things, after all. Just because I wouldn't like to go to an art museum doesn't instantly make me low on artistic interests, silly psychiatrist.
Agreed. I am still disappointed that there were no questions regarding music or the *creation* of art. I would much rather go to a concert or paint a picture than go look at paintings in a museum that I may have seen before.

Spoiler

Well that didn't work. I'll get an image up later. Kids are whining they have to do homework.

Edited by Balladeer, 07 October 2014 - 04:44 PM.


Dintiradan Dintiradan

Eye of Argon

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 04:13 PM #68 Five Factor Personality Model

Guess what we forgot to do this July? This thing! Again! And not only do I have this year's results, I also have all my results ever graphed here, so you can more easily witness my descent into madness!

Was writing this a productive use of my time? Will anyone here enjoy me bumping a year old topic? Will I end a single sentence in this post with a period? The answer to all three of these questions are a convenient "No!"
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Lobita Lobita

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 07:37 PM #69 Five Factor Personality Model

The gist of the test tells me:

I am an introvert who seems cold to strangers. I have absolutely no desire to thrill seek. I am very easy to cooperate with and I have a lot of sympathy for others. I scrape by with the bare minimum of work needed and am easily distracted from my goals. I almost never act rashly, I think everything through beforehand several times before making a decision. I'm anxious and prone to suddenly burst into anger when frustrated. I'm self-conscious in social situations and easily overwhelmed. Very imaginative but not adventurous. I'm bored by hypothetical debates and I am very liberal.

Yeah, that's all pretty consistent with what I know about myself. Though some questions were hard to choose an answer, I tend to flip flop between extremely high self esteem and extremely low self esteem, for instance. And I tend to avoid work until the last minute but when I do the work I do a damn good job. Not quite sure how to quantify that.
When in doubt, kill it with fire.

Karan S'jet Karan S'jet

seiðmaðr

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:02 PM #70 Five Factor Personality Model

I did this too: https://c312441.ssl....tive-Report.htm
The mutilation of the self is the only path towards real personal growth.
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
I MUST KNOW WHAT YOU SEE
TELL ME. . .
WHAT AM I?
I CANNOT SEE




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