Curious Artila diipadaapaa Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I played the demo for a while. And I'm mad. Just mad. I waited so long to get to play this game and was hoping that it would be more like avernum 1-3 than Avadon. I'm not complaining about the story. Just gameplay. Avernum 5 and 6 were not bad, but disappointing nevertheless. Then Avadon came and it was plain bad. Combat sucked, character development was nonexistend, world was restricted... And now Escape from the pit seems to go even farther. The skill tree for example. 2 skill points per level, and you can't even put them on the same skill. Where is the variety between characters? Why on earth you can't raise first aid to X without getting priest spells or tool use to X?! I mean it is so restricted that why even have skills in the first place? And then there is the difficulty thingy. The game had no difficulty whatsoever, just shitloads of HP for monster. No strategies and character placement. Just whack, whack whack, heal, whack, whack, whack, heal and hour later we have a dead monster. Then there is 5 other monster left in the room. Hopefully Jeff manages to change the course of his games. The last 2 have been so huge disappointments that I don't know if I even want to try the next game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slarti Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with the game. For what it's worth, these forums have given A:EFTP generally positive reviews. They have been surprisingly positive from the many people who played the previous iterations of the game (Exile and Avernum). Many aspects of gameplay are far more like A1-3 than Avadon: the open, non-linear world; tile-based movement; lack of character classes; even the skill system, while clearly influenced by Avadon, has pretty much the same skill set as A1-3, just organized in a different way. The rules for where you can place skill points are much less restrictve than Avadon's, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dintiradan Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I can understand the complaint about the skill tree. In the early Exiles/Avernums, you allot a lot of skill points, so there's a lot of variety for first level characters. This is offset by your choices not having much impact later on in the game. Jeff's current design philosophy is to make sure that choices stay relevant throughout the game. I found that, while my characters weren't diverse at all at the beginning of the demo, even by the end of the demo they were pretty customized. But yeah, I prefer the front-loading of choices in games like BoE and BoA, where you'll be making so many different level one parties that you'll want as much diversity as possible. Death Knight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 The old system gave more initial choices, but to unlock the higher hidden skills you need to plan right from the start how to get them and you could only use some for the last 5 to 10% of the game. This system lets you use the higher level skills earlier in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast *i Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 The problem with the old system is that while it gave you a lot more flexibility, this flexibility was mostly an illusion in that you really just had numerous ways to unknowingly create poor builds where you would eventually be unable to advance the game because your characters are too weak. The number of good builds really has not changed between the iterations, it's just a lot more difficult to make truly bad choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd MTrask Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Er, huh? I finished the Avernum games without relying on guides and simply put points where I felt like - I was actually role playing too, and not simply min-maxing. Sure, there were difficult situations, but are gamers nowadays so pampered they whine with every papercut? Jeez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 casual gamers (many/most of jeff's new customers) don't want to search from internet on what they need to invest to unlock this or that skill they need at later part of game or restart game at late point of game due they have made errors earlier and their party is bad, hc players like most who give advices at SW-forums know on what needs to invest and how much to unlock certain skill etc. if makes really bad party I doubt player would reach end of game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Death Knight Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Avernum had flashy graphics in this version. That wasnt what did it in to me. What got me annoyed was when all the cool skills were taken out. Assassination? Gone. Anatomy? Gone. Quick Strike from BOA and later, Gone. Quick Action? No extra attack. Those were all the things that were completely roguish in nature. Backstab you say? Thats more an avadon skill than a rogue skill. Assassination was one of the coolest skills in those games because it was so unique. Ive yet to see a game that has had such a unique and cool take on rogues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk adc. Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Yes, I also was hoping for the same thing, but the new graphics, the all-new animations, almost looking like Diablo III, you could do 3 major epic quests without the story ending. Who could say "NO" to that? But yea, the world is a bit restricted and unfortunately, smaller compared to AV3, I really love that game... --------- -Nightwatcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slarti Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Assassination is not really gone, it was just replaced with Lethal Blow, which has a very similar effect and exactly the same theme. What was so cool about Assassination anyway? Gymnastics now does more or less what Quick Strike used to do. It is not exactly the same, but it is probably more useful (in a cost-benefit analysis) than Quick Strike was anyway. Quick Action doesn't give an extra attack, no, but if you want that just dual-wield daggers or short swords -- that's an option that did not used to be available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Kestral Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 My perspective: I must say I really love this remake. My pattern with with previous AV games was always this: "start out, get a few levels, realize that the builds I'm using are crappy, start over, get a few levels again, still die a lot (on normal), change my mind about builds again, start over again, eventually go online for help about where I should put my skill points, read about all the different opinions on every skill and trait, get totally overwhelmed with it all, give up/get distracted by another game." I'd never finished an Avernum game, despite multiple attempts and really liking the idea of them...but I think I'm actually going to finish this one. I'm actually getting to go through and experience all the story!! And despite my party being sub-optimal I'm still able to use a combination of tactics, consumables, and determination to get though the game on Hard. So...I know the old skill system was much loved, but at least for me ditching it and replacing it with something less complex and punishing has made the game much, much more enjoyable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Death Knight Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Assassination is not really gone, it was just replaced with Lethal Blow, which has a very similar effect and exactly the same theme. What was so cool about Assassination anyway? Gymnastics now does more or less what Quick Strike used to do. It is not exactly the same, but it is probably more useful (in a cost-benefit analysis) than Quick Strike was anyway. Quick Action doesn't give an extra attack, no, but if you want that just dual-wield daggers or short swords -- that's an option that did not used to be available. Assassination as a skill was everything that i loved about those games. Playing blades of avernum with that in mind was so much fun. The reason i like it is because it's very unique in that you basically aim for your character to gain so much experience so that you eventually get critical hits on people and eventually (mostly all monsters) that are less talented than your character. Its got to be one of the coolest ideas for a class. Whats even cooler was the classes you can create with the older games with assassination. Use swords, assassination, and rely on bows for a backup archer or marauding type rogue. Put points into resistance, hardiness, assassination for a mage killer rogue. Put a lot of points into anatomy (another favorite skill) for an assassin rogue. The list goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Arch-Mage Solberg Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 My perspective: I must say I really love this remake. My pattern with with previous AV games was always this: "start out, get a few levels, realize that the builds I'm using are crappy, start over, get a few levels again, still die a lot (on normal), change my mind about builds again, start over again, eventually go online for help about where I should put my skill points, read about all the different opinions on every skill and trait, get totally overwhelmed with it all, give up/get distracted by another game." I'd never finished an Avernum game, despite multiple attempts and really liking the idea of them...but I think I'm actually going to finish this one. I'm actually getting to go through and experience all the story!! And despite my party being sub-optimal I'm still able to use a combination of tactics, consumables, and determination to get though the game on Hard. So...I know the old skill system was much loved, but at least for me ditching it and replacing it with something less complex and punishing has made the game much, much more enjoyable. Really!?! I'm the exact opposite. I've finished every Spiderweb game I've played. In some cases (as with Exile 1 and 2) more than 10 times each! Of course we share the common bond of changing builds. My favorite build for 4 characters is a warrior tank, an archer thief, a priest and a mage. *This combination works for me and may not have the same results for you. Post #672 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Little Fyora Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 No. This game doesn't suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt BMA Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 And then there is the difficulty thingy. The game had no difficulty whatsoever, just shitloads of HP for monster. No strategies and character placement. Just whack, whack whack, heal, whack, whack, whack, heal and hour later we have a dead monster.It looks like you wanted a higher level of enemy AI with an increased difficulty level. With the enemies attacking you with a lot more cunning and a higher level of strategic planning. I always play at the default difficulty level and I'm no expert, but I believe increasing/decreasing the difficulty only affects the statistics of play, and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Sorry, I have nothing to add to this thread, I'm just tired of seeing that topic title in the forum list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Death Knight Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I don't think this game sucks. I think that although the old game has a lot of things i like, this game is much more simplistic and easy to play/get into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slarti Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 It's only more simplistic in the sense that it eliminated a few pointlessly bad options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila CoarseDragon Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I love the game. You need to think about how you plan out your characters from the begining. The skills are varied and interesting. At times combat is tough at high difficulty but proper strategy can get you through the hardest battles. This is an excellent game IMHO and I am very happy I got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk JamesMighty Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Yes, this game truly exceeded my expectations in every which way, so i have no complaints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila diipadaapaa Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 My perspective: My pattern with with previous AV games was always this: "start out, get a few levels, realize that the builds I'm using are crappy, start over, get a few levels again, still die a lot (on normal), change my mind about builds again, start over again, eventually go online for help about where I should put my skill points, read about all the different opinions on every skill and trait, get totally overwhelmed with it all, give up/get distracted by another game." You do know older Avernums had a character editor? But for me normal difficulty on Avernum games isn't fun. They are too easy. I started playing A1 after trying this game out and Torment feels so easy to me. I just don't understand how you can allocate your skill points so badly that you die? Or are you trying to create perfectly min/maxed characters on firts try? It looks like you wanted a higher level of enemy AI with an increased difficulty level. With the enemies attacking you with a lot more cunning and a higher level of strategic planning. Better AI could do it, or more monsters per group, or the game would be designed to Torment difficulty and other difficulties would use hp/stats multipliers(divisors). But having read Jeff's blog I know these games are headed completely different direction. It's only more simplistic in the sense that it eliminated a few pointlessly bad options. But what is the point of options if there isn't bad options left? I love the game. You need to think about how you plan out your characters from the beginning. The skills are varied and interesting. At times combat is tough at high difficulty but proper strategy can get you through the hardest battles. I just didn't got the how there is anything to plan. If you want to have parry skill 8, first you must put 8 points to weapons and blademaster. If you want your mage to use less SP when casting spells, you have to first put points 3 different skills below it. With only 2 points/level up, in my opinion there isn't much to plan. Maybe I'll try Exile one of these days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 But what is the point of options if there isn't bad options left? The point of offering options doesn't have to be to try to trap players into making bad decisions. It can be to allow players to create the kind of characters that they want to play, knowing that they won't be barred from being able to succeed because they built their characters in the "wrong" way. Realising that 10 hours of gameplay went to waste because you've been building your characters in a way that's not viable in the long term, and now you'll either have to cheat or give up, isn't very much fun for most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila diipadaapaa Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 That 10 hours wouldn't have been a waste, it would have been a learning experience. And if it wasn't fun, why would one have been playing it? Basically what you are trying to say is that a fun game is such that you win it no matter what you do and the fun comes from winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 That 10 hours wouldn't have been a waste, it would have been a learning experience.Not everyone plays games in order to learn how to be better at playing games. I'd say that's pretty low down the list of reasons why most people play games, in fact.And if it wasn't fun, why would one have been playing it? Basically what you are trying to say is that a fun game is such that you win it no matter what you do and the fun comes from winning.When most people play a game, they expect to be able to finish it eventually even if they play badly. That doesn't necessarily mean that "the fun comes from winning", but people who play (for example) to experience the story will want to be able to play through the entire game in order to do that, and won't necessarily want to learn the ins and outs of the combat system to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 They also won't necessarily want to replay the first third of the game over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slarti Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Some options are always going to be better than other options. Look at all the arguments over archers: those of us who analyze and number-crunch are all convinced that archers are relatively bad in A:EFTP, but some people are devoted to them. And that's fine, because in A:EFTP, choosing a sub-optimal option does not mean you are screwed. Your party may not be as good as someone who min-maxes with 3 adrenaline-rushing AoE-casters and a dual-wielder, but it's still good enough to play through the game on Normal, and maybe even on Hard. If you want options to affect you in a life-or-death way, play on Torment. That is one thing, BTW, that is hugely improved since Avernum 5 and 6. For both A:EFTP and Avadon, "Torment" does not simply mean the monsters have huge amounts of HP and the same stupid strategies. On Torment, now, monsters get extra abilities and often extra attacks, requiring modifications to your tactics -- and yes, you will need to be thoughtful about how you approach some of those battles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fledgling Fyora Emerald Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 this is the first spiderweb game i played and its far far from sucking. as it is its better then many AAA titles out there, it offers a lot of quality content while to many of the big house games offer lot of glamor, special effects and good graphics all around while giving little else to the player and a bit of negative criticism in some situations there were to few dialog lines, when i found out of the mage emissary under Formello more so that the Castle knows about her i was soo curios to find out why the king lets her be, or to offer me some opinion about her and when i got to the king, nothing, not one mention for something that seemed so important to me, or other actions that will effect whole of Avernum that got no line of dialog from the king, like finding the exit or killing the emperor and other examples not only related to the king also it would be nice to see some sort of optional hardcore mode to make full use of all the game has to offer, like needing to actually eat the food one has to stay alive, or drink water or sleep, so many inns and all with no empty rooms, also some extra slides at the end to show how the many choices affected Avernum, short or long future, would have been soo nice(like what happens to Kyas freehold if one decides to help or kill them) A:EFTP is far from perfect but its a game with a soul that offers many good hours of play(took me around 50 to finish my first run of normal)so thank you Spiderweb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 A lot of things you mention existed in older versions. Exile series needed food or you could starve to death. The inns were used to rest instead of the town gates. You could replace characters in your party with NPCs in Avernum 1 to 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish devilkingx Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Personally I think that it's bad to remove "wrong" or "bad" options from the game, I've always thought the difference between casual and hardcore games was the chance of failure, casual games are like the NYC public school system, you need to put effort into failing to have even the smallest chance at failing and hardcore games would be like the original avernums, where you could actually mess up and have to start over, hopefully learning from your mistakes by removing bad choices, the game inches toward the casual end of the scale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fledgling Fyora Beve Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 This is also the first Spiderweb Software game I have played, and in my opinion it definitely does not suck. I have been playing it casually for nearly a month now, taking my time, and just enjoying the experience. I have only really got into RPG's over the last year, having recently finished the 1st Baldur's gate and the 1st Icewind Dale. I am enjoying this game just as much as the above. There are two moments that stand out for me so far...the 1st was encountering Blossthus for the first time and him totally annihilating my party in a couple of moves. Vengeance was sweet once I had levelled up a bit more. I also really enjoyed the friendly spiders section as well...loved the humour. I still have a load more to do and I can see myself spending a good couple more months playing this till the end. The only "criticism" I have is that I found the "hard" difficulty setting too hard for me. I got to level 10 playing on hard and have had to turn down the difficulty. Since changing to "normal" I have found combat to be so much easier and less frustrating. Perhaps I found it difficult as I am new to RPG's, but Icewind Dale was far easier on "hard" than this game. Anyway the game has been a very rewarding experience, and I cannot wait to play Avadon once I finally finish this one. Big thanks to Spiderweb! peteralexanderjex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Personally I think that it's bad to remove "wrong" or "bad" options from the game, I've always thought the difference between casual and hardcore games was the chance of failure But you're just renaming the problem. Why is it bad for a game to be casual? I'd also argue that Jeff has been going for middle ground: he's aiming for his games to be hard to lose on casual mode and tough to win on the highest difficulty. For that to work, the curve needs to be such that most fights are easy even with a pretty bad build on casual difficulty and many fights are quite challenging without precise optimization on torment. Older Spiderweb games differed in that you could, if you wanted, put all your points in picking locks, making potions, and intelligence. You could make characters incompetent even on easy difficulties. —Alorael, who guess he doesn't see the value in being forced to start over. If you're a serious gamer and the game doesn't provide insufficient documentation and information (including unexpected shifts in what your party needs to be able to do), you can figure it out on paper and not screw up. If you're not, why shouldn't you be able to enjoy the game anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgeoning Battle Gamma Cpt. Charles Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I haven't played A:EftP, but commenting on rpg's in general, I love a challenge. I always start on the highest difficulty, then do what I like. If it turns out I didn't make my party right, I don't quit and try again, but rather try the best I can to adapt. Does A:EftP make that difficult or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 The only "criticism" I have is that I found the "hard" difficulty setting too hard for me. I got to level 10 playing on hard and have had to turn down the difficulty. Since changing to "normal" I have found combat to be so much easier and less frustrating. Perhaps I found it difficult as I am new to RPG's, but Icewind Dale was far easier on "hard" than this game.Jeff is trying to get away from his old system where all he did was apply a multiplier to monster stats to change difficulty and have monsters able to do more things to you at harder difficulties. It's no longer make a defensive build because you can't one shot monsters and prepare for a long slog through ridiculous monster health. Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. It helps with the endgames. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fledgling Fyora Beve Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 The only "criticism" I have is that I found the "hard" difficulty setting too hard for me. I got to level 10 playing on hard and have had to turn down the difficulty. Since changing to "normal" I have found combat to be so much easier and less frustrating. Perhaps I found it difficult as I am new to RPG's, but Icewind Dale was far easier on "hard" than this game.Jeff is trying to get away from his old system where all he did was apply a multiplier to monster stats to change difficulty and have monsters able to do more things to you at harder difficulties. It's no longer make a defensive build because you can't one shot monsters and prepare for a long slog through ridiculous monster health. Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. It helps with the endgames. Yeah what you said is very true, and I'm glad that Jeff made it that way. The intelligence of the various foes caught me completely by surprise and it was a humbling experience. Icewind Dale for me was very much combat oriented, and was merely a case of rinse and repeat...buff spells, whack, buff spells, whack. Not once did I feel that the enemy had truly outsmarted me. With Escape from the Pit, even now on normal I am still getting outsmarted on a regular basis...I have just completed the Slith underground fortress after several attempts, but when I finally got it right I felt my tactics were spot on and it was very satisfying. This is what compels me to play the game...the feeling of satisfaction when I know that my tactics are working. Perhaps I will attempt the game on hard again once I have finished the rest of my playthrough on normal. Take my "criticism" as a big positive...the game has been a big learning curve for me and is so much more than just "rush in and slaughter everything". I have learnt that the hard way :-) I haven't played A:EftP, but commenting on rpg's in general, I love a challenge. I always start on the highest difficulty, then do what I like. If it turns out I didn't make my party right, I don't quit and try again, but rather try the best I can to adapt. Does A:EftP make that difficult or something?I think you should get the game and try it on torment. Just thinking of attempting to play it on that difficulty sends shivers down my spine. I personally don't think it is the build of my party...I am happy with all my skills and attributes etc. I think it's the intelligence of the various foes and how they use their own skills against you. For me one wrong move and your facing an uphill battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Rowen Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 My approach to game difficulty might be very different from many members on these forums. I always play through on Casual the first time to learn and experience the story. If I liked the story line I will replay it on normal and afterwords on hard. I almost never beat it on hard because I've beaten it at least twice before and don't feel like reloading save files all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd dorfydorf Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 My approach to game difficulty might be very different from many members on these forums. I always play through on Casual the first time to learn and experience the story. If I liked the story line I will replay it on normal and afterwords on hard. I almost never beat it on hard because I've beaten it at least twice before and don't feel like reloading save files all the time.Me too! I mostly play RPGs for the story, so I want to experience that first and foremost. (plus, I just really really suck at RPGs). sometimes I do play on a harder difficulty if a game is too easy. The story does lose it's epicness if you just prance around the Dark lord's fortress, slaying enemies like they were paper mache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Little Fyora Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 "Sucks" and "Crap" ought to be censored like the rest of them. They produce negative energy, and I was wondering why they haven't already been censored, but I guess people have got to the point where they can't express themselves without it. (I'm sorry for interrupting, I was just thinking aloud.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slarti Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 They're certainly negative, but they have very different connotations from the words that are actually censored. You could say that they are part of a different register of language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish devilkingx Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 But you're just renaming the problem. Why is it bad for a game to be casual?it's the difference between, an epic poem(like beowulf) or an epic novel(a song of ice and fire, conan the barbarian, the da vinci code, the lord of the rings trilogy, etc.) and a book that a 4th grader would do a book report on I'd also argue that Jeff has been going for middle ground: he's aiming for his games to be hard to lose on casual mode and tough to win on the highest difficulty. For that to work, the curve needs to be such that most fights are easy even with a pretty bad build on casual difficulty and many fights are quite challenging without precise optimization on torment.i guess... but some of the things that don't change with difficulty show my point Older Spiderweb games differed in that you could, if you wanted, put all your points in picking locks, making potions, and intelligence. You could make characters incompetent even on easy difficulties.games should require you to think and punish you for not, it's just like in oblivion when they complained about level-scaling, if you're too stupid to realise that ignoring combat in a combat focused game that cannot be beaten without it is a bad idea, then it isn't the game developer's fault you need to restart —Alorael, who guess he doesn't see the value in being forced to start over. If you're a serious gamer and the game doesn't provide insufficient documentation and information (including unexpected shifts in what your party needs to be able to do), you can figure it out on paper and not screw up. If you're not, why shouldn't you be able to enjoy the game anyway?I agree that a game needs good documentation, it sucks to have to resort to forums and wiki's because half the info you'll need to play the game isn't there(*looks at mount and blade but moslty minecraft*) you should only be forced to start over, if you make an obvious mistake(like having a full party of mages or picking a class/character build that clashes with your playstyle(which could be picking the archer class in avernum when you hate archery or picking a shaper in geneforge when you want to focus on melee or an agent when you want to summon lots of creations)) if you don't make an obvious mistake then you shouldn't have to(nothing like, a dialog choice you made 10 hours ago that seems unimportant screws you over, that'd be unfair) I'd love to add that I love this game(hate the new stat system though) and think it is a great improvement over the awesomeness of A6(although i think A1 is better than A6, but I can't play it because I can't tolerate the horrible graphics, since this is basically a graphic update for a1 with some added avadon poison I love this too.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I understand that you prefer hardcore games, and I'll accept that it's a valid preference. But how is a chance of failure making the difference between masterpiece and contemptible fluff? I'll agree that being required to think for a game is good, but that's what requiring good tactics is about. Having to make irrevocable decisions about character build without full information isn't thinking, it's guessing. And if you guess wrong, your game is ruined. Or even if you do have enough information, if there are huge negative consequences for not thinking well enough it'll alienate players. We respond much better to positive rewards (you built well and now, after several tries, can complete the area!) than to negative punishments (you built poorly and now you have to start the game over!). Again, I understand you prefer the latter, but recognize that this isn't necessarily true of everyone. A party of all mages is very effective in some games, but unplayable in others. The same goes for a party of all fighters or all priests. Whether the difficulty over the course of the game will scale so that trying to dodge is a viable strategy or hopeless varies from Spiderweb game to Spiderweb game. What Luck does, when it's around, isn't at all clear. —Alorael, whose basic disagreement is where you say "you should only be forced to start over..." He thinks that what you mean is that you want to be forced to start over, or rather that you want other people to be forced to start over because you want to be clever enough not to fall into build pitfalls. Since no one actually wants to have to restart a game, though, it's terrible design unless the designer is catering specifically to a "hardcore" demographic who will put up with that. He doesn't think it's particularly large, and would in fact put money on many of its champions in fact being outraged if they got blindsided by quirks of gameplay and found themselves forced to make a new party some 30 hours into a 40 hour game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 devilkingx, I'd recommend you live and let live instead of trying to judge others' tastes. After all, there are plenty of people in the world who think The Da Vinci Code isn't suitable for anything more sophisticated than a 4th grade book report: you wouldn't want one of them coming up to you and explaining to you why it's a terrible novel and why you're an inferior kind of reader for enjoying it, would you? So lay off on calling people (even hypothetical people) stupid if they don't like to play games the same way you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Skwish-E Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Lilith got there ahead of me. I was going to ask if you really... REALLY? put The DaVinci Code right next to Lord of the Rings in a list of literature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 In the interest of fairness, I should point out that telling devilkingx not to judge people's tastes was not an invitation for other people to jump in and start judging his tastes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug ProperPseudonym Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Sadly I cannot really disagree with the general premise of this conversation. I was disappointed by A:EftP. It was pretty and looked nice, but having bad options available is a valuable thing in a game . . . . as is having doors that close. I get a great deal of enjoyment from the trial and error process involved in finding a viable party setup. I personally liked being able to muck about with a less than perfect party. I've seen a disturbing trend in some games recently which is to take the choice away from the gamer. A good example of this in non spiderweb terms would be the travesty that is Diablo III. I won't go into explicit details, but most of the elements I loved from the previous games were stripped away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Diablo III and A:EftP both make it much harder to make a totally awful character, and Diablo III makes it trivial to fix the mistake, but both still let you play with a pretty subpar build if you don't make good choices. Then both make the game eminently winnable on the lowest difficulty even if your skill choices are poor, and both make it much, much harder, even impossible, to win on the highest difficulty. —Alorael, who is tempted to make a godawful Avernum party and challenge people to play with it on torment and see what happens. How far do you think you can get with disastrously bad builds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Kestral Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Hehe. You know what? I think we could learn something from Diablo 3. Diablo 3 lets you experiment with every build imaginable without forcing to grind pointlessly thought the process of leveling up a whole new character for every build you want to try. IMO, this is a real advance in game design. I would love to see the remake of Avernum 2 include an in-game option for *retraining* (I know we've got the character editor already, but I shy away from it cause I don't want to feel like a "cheater"). If fixing a mistake didn't involve starting over/grinding through the whole beginning of the game again then the fear of making a mistake that will haunt you forever would be removed. We'd be free! A in game retraining option would also set us free from any "short term vs. long term" choices in character creation (which basically amount to "suck now or suck later" when you'd rather not do either). Suddenly tons of things that don't work well in the long term become viable early or mid-game strategies which you are free to try out and experiment with. Of course in-game retraining shouldn't be completely free...it should cost something, like money or xp, that you can get by doing a *little* grinding with your *existing party* (instead of hours and hours of starting all over with a brand new party). That way you feel like you had to earn the right to fix your mistakes or try something new, but you aren't doomed to be haunted for all time by most of your character choices. Maybe this idea should have its own thread somewhere. (or already does?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slarti Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 —Alorael, who is tempted to make a godawful Avernum party and challenge people to play with it on torment and see what happens. How far do you think you can get with disastrously bad builds?I assume you'd give instructions for future skill placement as well, right? Otherwise this would be a silly, relatively minor penalty. But I dunno, I think this could be prohibitively bad. Imagine the following: All assignable stat points into Intelligence Skills points go into the following in order: 10 Cave Lore 10 Tool Use alternating with 10 First Aid 5 Luck 32 alternating in Bows, Gymnastics, Pole Weapons, Blademaster, Quick Action, Dual Wielding, Thrown Weapons, Melee Weapons (total of 4 each in the end) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd Black Owl Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 AEFP has balanced some skills between spell caster and weapon dealing,i love the 2 hand weapons wielding much,but Jeff should make the spear/halberd more effective in the next game i would love to play 1 sword wielding person/1 spear slith,1 nephil archer,1 mage and 1 priest but there're only 4 character choice so i usually choose a party with 1 spear slith warriror,1 nephil archer thief,1 mage and 1 priest but since this game minus the rebel spirit from the priest i combine a priest and a mage to make 1 sage using both skill hope the next game bring back my favorite slith and nephil and my favorite rebel spiril spell too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk adc. Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 This game sucks so bad... It's not the game thats bad, it's you Unfortunately, when this world existed, people had different choices on what is good and what is bad... ----------- Your criticisms are actually, very non-sense. It would take some time to adapt to the game, unlike the other SpiderWeb games, you just add skill points. But here, you have to spend all in one earning. ===== Many others think that this game is awesome, a few others, mostly confused, say it sucked. ------- -A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Oh, the sliths and nephils will be back as PCs in the next Avernum. E1/A1 has always had humans only. —Alorael, who will also throw in a response to that retraining like Diablo 3 comment from a month ago. It would be more accurate to describe it as retraining like Avadon, because Avadon had just that: around mid-game, you meet someone who will let you reassign all points. For free. As often as you want. And this was a brilliant idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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