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Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released


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JoltJade JoltJade

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:09 PM #71 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Hmm... I don't suppose temporary stat boosts are possible independent of status effects? If a spell just multiplied all stats by 1.1, then each character would improve mostly at their specialty. I haven't noticed any non-status boosts, though. I'm sorry to be so ignorant of the available mechanics. D:

Randomizer Randomizer

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:39 PM #72 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Acheld
Should have split my steel javelins into two stacks before loading it up, but ah, well.  What can you do? =D

Split up your steel javelins into different characters and sell unneeded ones because a stack becomes a single one and you will lose the money for selling the extras.
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:07 PM #73 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Originally Posted By: Acheld
Should have split my steel javelins into two stacks before loading it up, but ah, well.  What can you do? =D

Split up your steel javelins into different characters and sell unneeded ones because a stack becomes a single one and you will lose the money for selling the extras.
Yes, I realized that too late, though.



Re: Cloaks.  Why not something that helps everyone offensively, but in different ways.  e.g.:

Cloak of Curses
Cloak of Speed (gives some small number of AP to each player, or a chance of AP; maybe at level 3 it guarantees it.  Not sure what the right balance would be)
Cloak of Power (increases damage of all kinds by some percentage; a lower one than would be increased by any of the individual damage increasing ones)
Cloak of Godliness (or some other adjective) (This one would give the effects of all of the other three cloaks, but at a lower level.  Possibly something like:
Level 1: Effects of lvl 1 cloak of curses, and lvl 1 cloak of speed
Level 2: effects of lvl 2 cloak of curses, lvl 1 cloak of speed, lvl 1 cloak of power
Level 3: effects of lvl 2 of all three lower cloaks.

Kreador Kreador

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:13 PM #74 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Acheld
Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Originally Posted By: Acheld
Should have split my steel javelins into two stacks before loading it up, but ah, well.  What can you do? =D

Split up your steel javelins into different characters and sell unneeded ones because a stack becomes a single one and you will lose the money for selling the extras.
Yes, I realized that too late, though.



Re: Cloaks.  Why not something that helps everyone offensively, but in different ways.  e.g.:

Cloak of Curses
Cloak of Speed (gives some small number of AP to each player, or a chance of AP; maybe at level 3 it guarantees it.  Not sure what the right balance would be)
Cloak of Power (increases damage of all kinds by some percentage; a lower one than would be increased by any of the individual damage increasing ones)
Cloak of Godliness (or some other adjective) (This one would give the effects of all of the other three cloaks, but at a lower level.  Possibly something like:
Level 1: Effects of lvl 1 cloak of curses, and lvl 1 cloak of speed
Level 2: effects of lvl 2 cloak of curses, lvl 1 cloak of speed, lvl 1 cloak of power
Level 3: effects of lvl 2 of all three lower cloaks.
I really like this suggestion.

EDIT: Though I might think you would switch Speed and Power. Adding extra AP can often give extra actions, which means more or more effective damage. AP boost is, I think, more powerful than a straight damage boost.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:27 PM #75 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Yeah, you're probably right on that.



Also, another point of feedback: Though the other battle disciplines are certainly neater than they were before, I still don't find myself using anything but adrenaline rush, ever, especially since the standard protection spell eliminates the weakness you added to it.  You might consider nerfing it even more, to just give 15 AP instead of 20, say.  Enough for 2 actions.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:28 PM #76 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

I can't change the direct effects of PC statistics or status effects at all.  Period.  Not in any way.

If I could, there would be an awful lot more changes, believe me.  But I can't.
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:35 PM #77 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Ah, sorry; I guess I didn't realize a cloak was in the same category as status effect.  It's obvious, upon reflection.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:42 PM #78 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Acheld
Also, another point of feedback: Though the other battle disciplines are certainly neater than they were before, I still don't find myself using anything but adrenaline rush, ever, especially since the standard protection spell eliminates the weakness you added to it.  You might consider nerfing it even more, to just give 15 AP instead of 20, say.  Enough for 2 actions.
Adrenaline Rush gives 10 AP at first.  You need 10 QA to get 20 AP out of it.

Perhaps that's still too good.  It will take mages 25 skill points to get there now instead of 15, which takes away the biggest problem with it.  But maybe you are right.  I'll think about reducing its power a bit more.

Perhaps at high levels of QA, it will give a small chance of 20 AP, and a larger chance of 15 AP.
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:54 PM #79 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Is it possible to make it so that when you move away from an enemy in battle, instead of being slowed, they get an extra hit at you, like in Exile? Although I'd guess that is probably hard set too.

The way I visualise the battles, I'd see something like a "stone paper scissors" effect between different classes of characters, weapons and armour. I prefer a more "organic" looking kind of party so I'd see a dual wielding swift moving melee fighter with medium chain mail, half helm and two swords, nimble and agile, lightning slicing their way through lightly armoured archers, a tall halberd wielder, long arms and long reach, wearing heavy plate mail and full helm, much more slow moving but powerful like a tank engaging and cutting down fast attackers with his physical power, long range archers standing at the edges sniping at robed spell casters and vulnerable fighters, mages completely without armour (how come mages can also equip shields in fights?) possessing far more types of offensive and defensive and support capabilities, very devastating, but a much shorter casting range than when they become vulnerable to archers, and completely at the mercy of melee fighters who are able to get inside their spell casting range. Encumbrance of armour will be a big negative affecting dexterity for archers who need to snap off their shots very quickly and aim accurately, and a complete no go for mages who can't do their casting encased in a suit of armour (coz they put their stats into intelligence by studying for hours and poring over text books and tutor notes rather than into strength by going to the gym and pumping iron!)

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:56 PM #80 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

It might be okay, on reflection.  As I mentioned in passing, I'm playing on Torment, but giving my characters an extra skill point and stat point each level.  This makes it not too demanding to get the 10 quick action.  It might no be a problem for someone playing with the standard skill point allotment.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 02:02 PM #81 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

I think, re: cloaks, it may be best to just accept that those who want to play a boring game with 4 of the same type of character will be able to powergame a bit via the cloaks.  I don't think it's a big deal.

Thanks again for all your work.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 02:30 PM #82 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

I'd imagine that chain mail would be FASTER and more FLEXIBLE to fight in than heavy full plate armour but more vulnerable to a long reach weapon with a heavy thrust, like a spear, a halberd has thrust like a spear but is worse in that respect making up for that with the ability to cleave thru plate armour and chop mages and archers in half with one blow, if they can get to them.  Big plate armour has great protection but you aren't going to be as nimble or agile in it. A great sword two handed zweihander was just the thing used in the 15th century to defeat pole weapons. Of course, you cannot use a shield with that, and though it is nearly as fast as a dual wielder, might be far less flexible in combat. A bashing weapon like a mace or flail might do extra trauma than a spear against plate and mail though it comes with the shortest reach, even shorter than a good ol sword.

The point I'm trying to make is that VARIETY is interesting and every advantage in every tool, weapon or armour will come with a tradeoff in another respect.

Anyway that's just my thought on the battle system, thanks for reading smile

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 02:42 PM #83 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

If cloaks are removed, I'll probably either stick with version 1.0 or mod them back in. Unless of course they're replaced with something really cool.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:02 PM #84 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Gon
The point I'm trying to make is that VARIETY is interesting and every advantage in every tool, weapon or armour will come with a tradeoff in another respect.
Well put.  This is sort of the ideal in my mind -- in such a situation, things are more a question of tactics and creativity, and less a question of minmaxing and powergaming.

There is no capacity to reach that ideal here.

Okay.  I'm leaving the Cloaks in.  I am, however, replacing the 3rd summoning spell (4 is not necessary, without greater variety of critters than the game has) with something I've been wanting to fit in for a while:

Blink Burst.  It's another teleport spell, but in this one you tunnel through space and arrive with a bang, causing energy damage to creatures near your arrival point.  Increasing the spell level increases the radius of damage slightly (from 1 to 2), and at level 3, it causes an additional explosion that deals extra fire damage at radius 1.  (I even figured out how to give it different animations by level.)

This spell has inflexible targetting and does not do as much damage as the regular attack spells.  But it combos in many ways: you can be a Tunnel Mage and follow up Blink Burst with Shadow Blink, popping in to damage and daze your enemies and dashing to safety; you can use it to set up a better position for a cone spell while still doing some damage; or, you can use it to set up Heartshock.  Heck, you could even combine it with Splinter.
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:02 PM #85 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

LATEST UPDATE: Version 1.1 as of 4/21/12

DOWNLOAD LINK: Here

NEW CHANGES
- New spells: Splinter, Blink Burst, Beast Binding, Earth Binding, Arcane Binding
- Adrenaline Rush and Battle Frenzy rebalanced, stronger weakness effect, fewer APs for AR
- A few more changes to items (mostly later in the game)
- A few minor tweaks to monsters to conform with the above changes
- Fixed some text display and cosmetic issues
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:51 PM #86 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Excellent update; I like the re-balancing, though I'm not sure both the fewer APs and the weakness effect are necessary for adrenaline rush.

The weakness effect works well; not only does my protection spell fail to cancel it, but it simply fails to work at all, so I'm facing a 20% increase in damage taken, and a 20% increase in enemies hit-rate.  It's definitely making me hesitate, at least for the longer battles.  (The shorter ones are still over before the penalties matter)

In battles that will last more than a round or two, Battle frenzy now totally outclasses adrenaline rush.  Which, I think, is a good thing, as it's something that fighter classes will get to, but is even farther out of the reach of casters than adrenaline rush.

I don't personally think the weakness effect works well with blade shield.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:00 PM #87 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Hmm, I wasn't thinking of it as a 20% penalty, but you're right, that's what it amounts to.  I may need to rethink that -- or allow the 10 QA version to have 20 AP again.  Thoughts anyone?

The weakness effect was not supposed to be on Bladeshield.  That was an error!  I've now fixed it and uploaded the corrected version (as of 10 PM, EST).
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:21 PM #88 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

I dunno, I kind of like the 20% penalty.  10% I think would still not make me hesitate.  It fits, too; you're giving up defense for a flurry of offense, basically, in both cases.

I would keep it at 15 AP, also.  The penalty of 20% hurts fighters more than casters, as they will be on the front lines.  I think by keeping at 15 AP, you make it a real question as to whether it's worth it for casters to invest in that direction.  If it's at 20, then it will always make sense for casters to do so, in my opinion.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:32 PM #89 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

I also just observed that if it's at 15 AP, there is little incentive for casters to invest in quick action, as they will get 2 actions even with no investment in QA.  That means, of course, that adrenaline rush doesn't benefit in any measurable way from QA investment.  Don't know if that's bad or good.

bladeshield seems to be working as intended, now.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:35 PM #90 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

It might be a good balance to put the maximum at 18.  That way, if they have another source of AP (such as gymnastics), it can push them over into three actions.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:52 PM #91 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Yeah, that's exactly the dilemma.

One thing to note is that Haste gets 3 chances to activate off any Adrenaline Rush: once when you use the discipline, and then on the two actions you take.    So if AR gives 15 AP or more, and you have Haste on, you actually do have a 19/27 chance of getting three actions off.  So actually, at 15 AP it is quite usable for casters, although probably not worth 10 skill points, which is fine.

I'd put it at 18 for Gymnastics, but that also hands it to anyone in Mercuric armor.  I'd prefer to avoid that.
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:56 PM #92 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
I'd put it at 18 for Gymnastics, but that also hands it to anyone in Mercuric armor.  I'd prefer to avoid that.


Does Adrenaline Rush actually work that way in the first place? I remember it not taking into account your base AP unless you already had 10 or more at the time you used it (in which case it was a smarter idea to just attack and then use it anyway).

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:08 PM #93 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
Yeah, that's exactly the dilemma.

One thing to note is that Haste gets 3 chances to activate off any Adrenaline Rush: once when you use the discipline, and then on the two actions you take.    So if AR gives 15 AP or more, and you have Haste on, you actually do have a 19/27 chance of getting three actions off.  So actually, at 15 AP it is quite usable for casters, although probably not worth 10 skill points, which is fine.

I'd put it at 18 for Gymnastics, but that also hands it to anyone in Mercuric armor.  I'd prefer to avoid that.
Hm, you could always put it at 17, then.  Gymnastics at 10 points gives you a pretty decent chance of getting 2 or more bonus AP.

I'm not 100% certain if haste works right when you activate adrenaline rush.  Maybe it does and I haven't noticed; I'll observe.  

You're right, at least, about the two actions after you've activated it.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:19 PM #94 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

The way it works is as follows:

1) Deduct 9 AP for using an action

2) If Haste activated, get back 4 AP

3) If your AP is below 0, let AP = 0

4) Add AP as dictated by Adrenaline Rush

Haste CAN activate on using AR (I just tried).  You will normally end up with 23 AP instead of 20.  The reason is that the usual AR math is 8 - 9 = -1 = 0 + 20 = 20.  With Haste it becomes 8 - 9 + 4 = 3 + 20 = 23.

Acheld, the good news is that 2 bonus AP from Gymnastics indeed allow you to attack and then use AR.  Then the math is 10 - 9 = 1 - 9 = -8 = 0 + 20 = 20.

(Replacing +20, with + whatever in the remix.)
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:03 PM #95 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Ah, yes.  I wasn't thinking that if you had 10 or more AP at the start of the round, you'd want to perform an action, and *then* activate adrenaline rush anyway.

Anyway, I think that's more reason to leave it at 15 AP.

The only other alternative I see is to make it go to three actions at QA 12, or something like that, which can be achieved with trainers.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:28 PM #96 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Wishful thinking here. Is it possible to change Gymnastics' evasion bonus to an absolute chance to evade?
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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:34 AM #97 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

@ House of S

Sorry I had no time to read more than your introduction to changes in your 1.1 version, so I ask only one question: what about Divine Retribution and Dual Wielding?
These features are the foundation of my party playthroughs, I will try the new version for sure but I am also a bit worried about changes in this features... oh, and compliments for this huge work of yours!
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Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:34 AM #98 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Seriously?  "I'm downloading the thing you made, but I don't have time to read two paragraphs (they are all labelled, you see) about what's in it, so I'm going to post and ask you instead"?  Go read the first post, Superba.

Azuma:
Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
I can't change the direct effects of PC statistics or status effects at all.  Period.  Not in any way.

If I could, there would be an awful lot more changes, believe me.  But I can't.

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:40 AM #99 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
a few of the items buried in the higher Cave Lore patches (requiring 8 - 11 skill) have been replaced...
Is the regrowing Mandrake still there?

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:54 AM #100 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Although you need Cave Lore for the regrowing herbs, they are not actually in cave lore caches, so I couldn't edit those even if I wanted to.  I should probably use the word "cache" to avoid confusion.
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Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:02 AM #101 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
Although you need Cave Lore for the regrowing herbs, they are not actually in cave lore caches, so I couldn't edit those even if I wanted to.  I should probably use the word "cache" to avoid confusion.
Thats good me bruther - ya wanna not be bothering them herb patches.

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:36 AM #102 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

A couple of issues with the latest version:

Radiate Ice scrolls now need to be targeted; is this intentional? And if you choose a target that's not adjacent, your character ends up trying to run over to it, most likely losing all its AP.

And Splinter has a similar mechanic, but even weirder. If you select a target that's not adjacent, the priest runs around, but not in the direction of the target. He just darts around in apparently random directions until he runs out of AP, and nothing else happens. When used as intended, the spell is quite good, but at the very least there should be something in the tooltip about only targeting adjacent creatures. And I worry that hostile spellcasters will not use it properly either, which could make some fights too easy.

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:03 AM #103 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Radiate Ice scrolls: whoops, that's a bug.  Fixed for the next version.  Actually that affected a bunch of scrolls and a few enemy attacks, too.

This (and many of the other bugs) are the result of strange choice made to have each new script definition automatically import all the values of the previous definition... but also to provide an import command so that it can import the values of any other definition in the file.  The problem is that you can end up with chains of imports, so that finding out what abilities you will affect when you make a change is not always trivial.  I have been pretty good about being on top of this, but errors slip through, as you can see.

Splinter: I don't know why on earth it does that.  I tried a fix, but it didn't do anything.  Hostile casters might actually use it properly -- I'm not sure.  Either way, there are only a handful of enemies that cast it and they are all priests loaded up with 5 or 6 different abilities.  If you run into a priest who spins around in a circle for no apparent reason, let me know and I'll change it to a different ability for enemies.
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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:28 PM #104 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Okay, I'm not too worried about enemy spellcasters wasting their turn. wink

I'm up to level 6 on Torment and so far I'm having way more fun than on my previous Torment run. And not just because my fighters are doing more damage, though that does eliminate some of the tedium. Critters can still kill me just as quickly, but I have more tactical options to save myself. The ensnaring effect of javelins can let my speedy missile thrower delay the ones who can one-shot my tank. Scourge weakens their attacks. And War Chant actually does something now, thank you very much. Edit: No it doesn't. Still just an extra 2% to hit for the first level.

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Tormented Battle Mage

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:54 PM #105 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Level 12 on torment and my javelin thrower still is higher on damage.  Swords are best with battle disciplines but are slowly getting better.  Thrown missiles are so much more effective than in previous games that this is finally viable character.  The downside is even pumping dexterity the monsters still have an easy time hitting.

Of course the Nephil Warblade with +2 dexterity went to my thrown missile character rather than sword fighter. smile
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