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Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released


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Pliant Giant Pliant Giant

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 04:51 AM #36 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Unfortunately, I can't actually do what EA suggests.  There can really only be a single random list per mage summon.  I can have as many different specific monster summons as I want, though, including on different spell levels.  But I think the buffs are adequate for those.  Battle Frenzy on level 3 should be adequate, anyway.

I might just pick specific creatures.  I will at least take off the unstable mass.

Also, I just discovered a bug: I set the Echo spells to only allow a very short teleport (3 squares), but it doesn't actually limit the range, and I can't find any way to limit it.  (I did find a way to teleport the caster off the map.  That doesn't help. :P)  Actually, I think range is hardcoded for all attack types, too.  Now I am worried that Spirit Echo is a bit too powerful.  Divine Echo is okay, but the first one you only need 5 priest skill for.  I'm not sure what to do about this, as I like the effect otherwise.

I guess it is limited somewhat by the fact that you can't use it if you already have a shade out.  But I don't really like it.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:14 AM #37 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

After some experimenting, I've decided to change Spirit Echo to Splinter.  For Splinter, you need to be in striking range of an enemy.  That enemy is sent flying backwards, but a splinter remains by their old location, ready to protect you.

Providing a free teleport (with bonus summon) for just 5 skill points is too powerful, I think, especially given how Jeff set up many of the boss fights.
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Kinsume Kinsume

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:30 AM #38 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Have you released new version yet with the fixes you've mentioned? Wasn't sure if the link was updated or not.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:02 AM #39 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

No.  If I release an update, I'll say so.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:59 PM #40 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

I've now updated the summoning spells.  Their new names are Beast Binding, Earth Binding, Daemon Binding, and Arcane Binding.

Beast Binding summons the usual assortment of low-level critters, but I've taken out the worst ones.

Earth Binding will now summon one of four mid-level creatures, and they're all good ones.

Daemon Binding and Arcane Binding now summon specific demons.  The power level of the spells hasn't really improved, but their consistency has.


At this point I think there are starting to be enough changes for an update.  Are there any other bugs, requests, criticisms I should consider before posting one?
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:06 PM #41 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Not sure why but it seems like my attacks and spells are missing alot more. Haven't had time to do a real playthrough yet but ran through the first cellar place on torment and I missed atleast 20 times between spells and normal attacks. This is of course with pure str on fighters, int on mages as well as as high of a weapon mastery/mage skill as they could have.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:07 PM #42 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

My initial impression is that thrown weapons are a bit overpowered, but it's very early yet. The longbow is still a great weapon, even without the +5% to-hit.

My problem here is that I don't have enough PCs. I want to try everything at once and I just can't. Just for gigs I started a game with a sword wielder, a pole user, an archer, and a javelineer. No spells. Not intending to play a whole game that way, just wanting to see how they compare. And whether it would work at all. And apart from, you know, getting hurt and dying, it's pretty awesome. But I can't decide which classes/weapons are the most awesome. And I want to try all the spells too.

So I'm having a hard time settling on a party for a proper play-through. Your fault, Slarty, for making all the classes interesting enough to be attractive. Oh well, that's what replays are for. wink

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:13 PM #43 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Javelins seem to be overpowered but most of that is d4 dice versus d3 for bows and the chance multiplier for extra damage.

Right now only battle disciplines give swords decent damage, but I suppose a quick trip to the Giant Lands for that steel broadsword should even things out.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:19 PM #44 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Kinsume
Not sure why but it seems like my attacks and spells are missing alot more. Haven't had time to do a real playthrough yet but ran through the first cellar place on torment and I missed atleast 20 times between spells and normal attacks. This is of course with pure str on fighters, int on mages as well as as high of a weapon mastery/mage skill as they could have.
That's probably because you are used to playing that level on Normal or Hard.  Alternately, you may have blindly equipped shields without paying attention to the fact that they now reduce hit rate.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:25 PM #45 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Jerakeen
But I can't decide which classes/weapons are the most awesome. And I want to try all the spells too.

So I'm having a hard time settling on a party for a proper play-through.
I was having the same problem.  A suggestion:

Make a melee fighter, a ranged fighter, a mage and a priest.  Keep good weapons of all types.  You can use the "editor" command to switch your melee fighter between swords and poles, and your ranged fighter between bows and throws, whenever you feel like it.

---

Also: I just tried to see if I could make the "Cloak" spells target one ally, because I realized that they have a deleterious effect on party construction, by rewarding LACK of diversity.  Unfortunately, I can't: if one ally gets the status, the game is hardcoded to apply it to everyone.

Soooo.... what would the reaction be if I ELIMINATED the Cloak spells entirely, and replaced them with something else?  I am not sure I am likely to do this, but I had the idea and am curious what you all think.  (I don't think I can change the fountains, so that could be another problem, although not an insurmountable one.)
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:27 PM #46 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
Originally Posted By: Kinsume
Not sure why but it seems like my attacks and spells are missing alot more. Haven't had time to do a real playthrough yet but ran through the first cellar place on torment and I missed atleast 20 times between spells and normal attacks. This is of course with pure str on fighters, int on mages as well as as high of a weapon mastery/mage skill as they could have.
That's probably because you are used to playing that level on Normal or Hard.  Alternately, you may have blindly equipped shields without paying attention to the fact that they now reduce hit rate.

The only playthrough I've done was on Torment, so that is unlikely.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:50 PM #47 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

I'm not noticing any difference in hit rates. Anyone else?

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:01 PM #48 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Kinsume
The only playthrough I've done was on Torment, so that is unlikely.
Your comments from last week totally contradict this statement, but whatever.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:20 PM #49 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

If you mean my first time on the demo I got to like level 5. I don't consider that a playthrough. I'm refering to my most recent level 20 torment one.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:46 PM #50 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Slarty
Originally Posted By: Kinsume
Not sure why but it seems like my attacks and spells are missing alot more. Haven't had time to do a real playthrough yet but ran through the first cellar place on torment and I missed atleast 20 times between spells and normal attacks. This is of course with pure str on fighters, int on mages as well as as high of a weapon mastery/mage skill as they could have.
That's probably because you are used to playing that level on Normal or Hard.  Alternately, you may have blindly equipped shields without paying attention to the fact that they now reduce hit rate.
I could be misremembering here, but don't shields reduce hit rate in the base game?
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:56 PM #51 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Shields above wooden type reduced to hit chance, but in Slarty's version they all seem to.  Of course I still have a long way to go.

Made it to level 7, but it's a bit harder than I remember last time on torment.  Sniper is giving more second shots and javelins are still best consistent damage.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:06 PM #52 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Unintended consequences?

As I approach level 9 I decided to skip finishing the Underground Fort and try to do the Nephilim Fortress and Ancient Crypt.  Nephar archers get the weapon multiplier that we do and on torment that means armor doesn't reduce damage enough.  I saw 157 penetrate in one bow shot.
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:00 AM #53 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Also: I just tried to see if I could make the "Cloak" spells target one ally, because I realized that they have a deleterious effect on party construction, by rewarding LACK of diversity.  Unfortunately, I can't: if one ally gets the status, the game is hardcoded to apply it to everyone.

Soooo.... what would the reaction be if I ELIMINATED the Cloak spells entirely, and replaced them with something else?  I am not sure I am likely to do this, but I had the idea and am curious what you all think.  (I don't think I can change the fountains, so that could be another problem, although not an insurmountable one.)

I agree with the basic comment, my current party uses 4 bows (and 4 summons), because the bonus from the cloak is pretty great.

But to make the cloaks more interesting, could you just change the effects that the cloaks give to be more general? Like a generic to-hit modifier, a Crit-Chance Bonus, 1 or 2 AP bonus?

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:21 AM #54 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Unfortunately I don't think that changing what status effects do is within the bounds of what can be accomplished by script editing.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:49 AM #55 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Unintended consequences?

Nephar archers get the weapon multiplier that we do and on torment that means armor doesn't reduce damage enough.  I saw 157 penetrate in one bow shot.
No, they don't.  I checked before releasing, to make sure NONE of the upgraded weapon abilities are used by enemies.  That's the main reason I left short bows not-upgraded.

Nephar Archers have NEVER had regular bow shots at all, actually.  Nepahr Archers have a regular bow shot, but it is a short bow shot that still does 1-3.  They ALSO have always had both ranged battle disciplines as regular actions.  Battle disciplines are less of an issue.  Since enemies never have QA or Sniper, they can't use the upgraded versions.  So the Nephar Archer gets two ranged attacks.  Let's look at how the regular versions have changed:

#1: Used to be a single shot at 1-5 per level, now is a single shot at 1-6 per level.

#2: Used to be a single shot at 1-6 per level that immobilized, now is a shot at 1-4 that cleaves at 1-4.

In fact, this means that Nephar Archers do LESS single target damage on average, than they used to; and their greatest damage shot now, is exactly equal to their old greatest damage shot, it just doesn't immobilize.  Soooo...
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:55 AM #56 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Lilith
Unfortunately I don't think that changing what status effects do is within the bounds of what can be accomplished by script editing.
Lilith is correct.

And due to the hardcoded way the cloaks are programmed to affect all party members, really the only options are to keep them as they are, or to get rid of them entirely.


I am a little surprised that there is not more reaction to the suggestion of getting rid of them.  Are people really that indifferent?  If so, I think I will be replacing them.  (Including Cloak of Curses; if that were left in without the others, it would be on all the time and would dramatically devalue all the skills, abilities, and spells that gain some of their effectiveness from causing curses.)  So if you think there is good reason to keep the Cloaks in the game, please speak up now!
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:12 AM #57 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: Kinsume
Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
Originally Posted By: Kinsume
ran through the first cellar place on torment and I missed atleast 20 times
That's probably because you are used to playing that level on Normal or Hard.
The only playthrough I've done was on Torment, so that is unlikely.

Click to reveal.. (LAST WEEK)
Originally Posted By: Kinsume, on the 11th
(Current playthrough's party listed, at level 5) ... My first playthrough [i.e., not this one] I ran into several doors that needed like 6 and 7 tool use... I'm planning on trying out Hard/Torment with a more refined setup
Originally Posted By: Kinsume, on the 12th
(Listed a potential party setup) ... I'm currently doing this build on Normal in order to get a feel for its playstyle before going into Torment.
Originally Posted By: Kinsume, on the 13th
I'm on him right now in Torment, in Normal and Hard my party breezed through him.
Originally Posted By: Kinsume
If you mean my first time on the demo I got to like level 5. I don't consider that a playthrough. I'm refering to my most recent level 20 torment one.
We were talking specifically about the entrance dungeon, so what you consider as a "playthrough" is irrelevant.  It's clear from what you said last week that you played through the beginning of the game with multiple parties before switching to Hard or Torment.  It's even possible that you switched to Torment _after_ completing the entrance dungeon, which would explain why you found the unchanged hit rates so surprising.

That's all perfectly fine.  Call your playthrough what you like; I don't care.  And do give feedback -- you've had very helpful things to say!  But please don't misrepresent where your feedback is coming from.  That makes my job, of trying to make the remix balanced and fun, more difficult.
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:55 AM #58 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

I am a little surprised that there is not more reaction to the suggestion of getting rid of them.

Well, you didn't suggest what you would replace them with. As it is now, the cloaks tend to give a 20% or so bonus on overall party damage, since hardly anybody seems to go for 4 members with the same damage type. If you replace them with spells that are equally usefull, but more interesting, I doubt anybody will really complain. But if you replace them with 3 Spells that won't be used because stronger spells already exist, you just make the game harder.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:14 AM #59 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Just chiming in to say I haven't had time to play Avernum lately, but I'm following this thread and very curious to try out your handiwork, Slarty, when I get a chance (maybe next month?).

Re: Cloaks.  I like the cloaks...but I also liked dual-wielding in the original game.  If you're already changing up a bunch of stuff, I don't feel like it hurts anything to switch out the cloaks too. As long as I save copies of the original game files, I can always go back and play with Cloaks again if I want.

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Jerakeen Jerakeen

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:24 AM #60 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

But then what would the pools etc. do?

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:33 AM #61 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Cloak of the Arcane.

In the middle to end where Fort Emerald gives this it provides an important boost to spell attacks.  Especially since you've weakened some spells.

Cloak of Curses is okay at the start, but rarely does much to make a difference.
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:41 AM #62 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

The big advantage to cloaks and wards is that they give a buff that you don't have to tediously cast at the beginning of each fight.  I wouldn't be opposed to a replacement that also maintained itself, but replacing it with another spell that had to be manually cast each battle would add very little other than frustration, I think.

Question: if I load up this mod, will it retroactively change the items I have in my current game, or do I have to restart to get the new items.  I'm not worried about skills, as I can always "editor" to redistribute.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:55 AM #63 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

It will retroactively change everything, yes.

My issue with the Cloak spells is not the damage boost, it's that they encourage lack of diversity within a party.  Suppose you've decided you'll have a tank, a priest, and a mage.  Cloak of the Arcane is a really good case for having your 4th member be another spellcaster, as it's a free, eventually quite huge (> 30%) bonus you can't get if you use an archer or warrior instead.

Honestly, I don't particularly think spellcasters need the boost to spell attacks.  The fact that they can hit a large group of enemies with every attack is already a huge advantage.

But if I just take out Cloak of the Arcane, that creates an even bigger disincentive to have both melee and ranged fighters -- which is what I don't want.  Meh.
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:06 AM #64 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Awesome!  I had been anticipating this mod for a few days, and when I started a game, I've kept every "special" item I've found; I had about 25 of them accumulated in one character's inventory.  It's really neat to load it up and see that so many of them, formerly useless, are now pretty neat.

Should have split my steel javelins into two stacks before loading it up, but ah, well.  What can you do? =D

I play on torment, but use the editor to give my characters an extra stat point and skill point every level, which allows them to diversify without making the game impossible.  So, now I've got my archer with sword and shield when forced into melee, my priest with a pole weapon as backup, my dual wielder with javelins when necessary, and my mage with sword and shield and a bow as backup.  I'll give razordisks to my priest when they come along, I think.

Liking it so far, even though it's only been 10 minutes!  Thanks so much.

Honestly, if you removed the cloaks and such, I'd probably edit them back in for my own use using the current files you've got up, but it's your mod, your call.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:22 AM #65 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

The weakness on adrenaline rush is a good idea, but easily counteracted by having my priest use it last, then cast Protection (which overrides it).  Don't know what else you could do about that, though.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:23 AM #66 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

I never play through with the cloaks on. Any of them. So, for me, they just represent spell slots that could be utilised for fun/useful spells.

(Of course, I only ever play on normal, so I can't say if removing will mean the game becomes harder for players on torment, so feel free to ignore me if you want.)

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:37 AM #67 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

About Spirit Echo, there's an issue with enemies using it in outdoor fights and warping far into the black, where they are unreachable. This traps you in the fight and forces a reload. I assume Divine does the same, but I've no way to verify. I like the sound of Splinter, it seems like an interesting addition.

Also, the Echos are still listed as Summon Shade and Divine Host on the character info screen.

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:51 AM #68 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Originally Posted By: JoltJade
About Spirit Echo, there's an issue with enemies using it in outdoor fights and warping far into the black, where they are unreachable. This traps you in the fight and forces a reload. I assume Divine does the same, but I've no way to verify. I like the sound of Splinter, it seems like an interesting addition.

Also, the Echos are still listed as Summon Shade and Divine Host on the character info screen.
Thanks for reporting both of these issues.  The second means I have to update an extra file I thought wasn't used.  The first should be fixed in the next update when it changes to Splinter.  There is only one enemy that uses Divine Host/Echo, and I just changed that enemy so it uses a slightly different ability instead.

Still mulling over the Cloak issue.
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"I think we all have days where we feel like a Displacer Iguana." -- Slarty

JoltJade JoltJade

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:49 AM #69 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Is it possible to create a spell that checks primary statistics? For example if a character's highest stat is Intelligence then they get Arcane, Strength gets Blades, etc.? That would solve the diversity discouragement problem. Seems quite powerful, so it should replace Arcane. The problem (assuming this can be done at all) is what to do with the other slots. Cloak of Curses is fine, but the other two become pointless. You could have a defensive one, but that steps into Ward territory.

Perhaps the two in the middle could be personal modifications to the spellcaster. For example, a spell that gives the user Invulnerability, Daze, and Immobility, essentially turning the caster into a tanking statue- Cloak of Stone. (Which I can see being broken with Unshackle Mind. :/)

Pliant Giant Pliant Giant

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:57 AM #70 Avernum: Escape from the Pit - Avernum Remix 1.1 Released

Unfortunately, no.

Spells (and other abilities) can check any one stat and have differing effects depending on how high that stat is.  They can't check multiple stats.  Also, spell levels count as a stat, so if I change this for any spell, it will make acquiring levels 2 and 3 of that spell pointless.  I'd prefer to avoid that.

Also: it is literally impossible, in this engine, for 2 PCs to have different Cloaks at the same time.
"I, for one, prefer to believe that the forums are dead and that Lilith, Slarty, and I are all ghosts haunting the forum." -- Triumph

"I think we all have days where we feel like a Displacer Iguana." -- Slarty




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