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Kinsume Kinsume

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:43 AM #1 Casual/Normal/Hard

This is the build I've been using thus far in Torment. It has been working quite well, though my second frontline fighter does like to get 1 shot by bosses from time to time. I'm too stubborn to take away from his pure damage build to give him some Hardiness/Parry though, so entirely your call if you want to. On the difficulty levels below Torment, this build will absolutely crush everything.

Note : The +2's are the two points you buy from trainers. The order of the skills isn't exactly the order you have to get them to those levels in.

Character 1 : Tank (Will have 40 Str and ~20-25 End)
Melee Weapons - 10 +2 = +12% damage, +12% accuracy
Blademaster - 10 +2 = +36% damage, +12%accuracy
Hardiness - 10 +2 = +36% armor/magic/fire/cold resist, +12% posion/acid resist
Parry - 10 +2 = +36% chance to dodge melee or missle
Riposte - 10 +2 = +36% chance to reflect melee attack
Luck - 5 +2? = +7% armor, +7% resistances to all
Cave Lore - 5 = someone has to get it, and 10% posion and acid resist

Traits : Negotiator/Health Traits 3 times/Endurance 5 times/Parry Mastery 2 times/Mighty Blows 3 times/2 traits remaining.

Suggestions : Take a few points in tool use early on as you'll need 7 total for the starting area's locked doors. Luck can be skipped until the final points, its just icing on the cake for a tank. Be sure to level Melee Weapons every single level until you get it to 10. Put 1 point into each of the other skills initially, then level hardiness/parry one after another until they are both 10. Then focus on Blademaster to 10, followed by Riposte and Luck. Trainer skills are focused on in the same order of importance.
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Character 2 : Fighter (Will have 40 Str and ~20-25 End)
Melee Weapons - 20 +2 = +22% damage, +22% accuracy
Blademaster - 10 +2 = +36% damage, +12% accuracy
Quick Action - 10 +2 = Always first in battle, 37% faster fatigue recovery
Dual Wielding - 10 +2 = -24% dual wielding damage penalty
Lethal Blow - 10 +2 = +36% chance to crit

Traits : Negotiator/Health Traits 3 times/Endurance 5 times/Parry Mastery 2 times/Mighty Blows 3 times/Dual Wielding trait 2 times.

Suggestions : This guy is your highest single target dps, but make sure he doesn't get swarmed or he will die. Make sure you take Melee Weapons every level, then get 1 point in each of the other skills. Then focus on Blademaster to 10 followed by Quick Action/Dual Wielding leveled evenly. Finally get Lethal Blow to 10. Trainer skills are focused on in the same level of importance.
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Character 3 : Mage (Will have 40 Int and ~20-25 End)
Mage Spells - 15 +2 = +17 damage level, all mage spells, chance to connect spells
Priest Spells - 1 = minor heal/cure on mage
Arcane Lore - 4 +2 = needed for game's books, +18% mental resist
Spellcraft - 10 +2 = +24% spell effectiveness
Resistance - 10 +2 = +36% resist from all magic, damage and curses
Cave Lore - 3 = needed for game's stashes, 6% posion and acid resist
Tool use - 6 = someone has to get it
First Aid - 10 +2 = coupled with priest's, basically full hp and mp always after fights in dungeons.
Magical Efficiency 1 = had a point left over, why not...

Traits : Negotiator/Intelligence 5 times/Elemental Focus 5 times/Health Traits 3 times/2 traits remaining.

Suggestions :
(General)Your Mage and Priest both have access to daze. Make sure you use them for all fights as they make everything a cakewalk. On Torment both dazes are essential to being able to survive early game. Bolt of fire is your best friend early game, solid damage and very low mana cost. Summon creature can be used for an extra meatshield.

(Mage Specific)This game pretty much requires buffers to need to rebuff frequently, every few turns. Level 3 haste gives a chance to cast battle frenzy so you'll want to use it every time it is down. Other than that just spam her aoe spells.
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Character 4 : Priest (Will have 40 Int and ~20-25 End)
Priest Spells - 15 +2 = +17 damage level, all priest spells, chance to connect spells
Mage Spells - 2 = gives daze on priest
Arcane Lore - 4 +2 = needed for game's books, +18% mental resist
Spellcraft - 10 +2 = +24% spell effectiveness
Resistance - 10 +2 = +36% resist from all magic, damage and curses
Cave Lore - 2 = needed for game's stashes, 4% posion and acid resist
Tool use - 7 = someone has to get it
First Aid - 10 +2 = coupled with mage's, basically full hp and mp always after fights in dungeons.
Magical Efficiency 1 = had a point left over, why not...

Traits : Negotiator/Intelligence 5 times/Healing Focus 5 times/Health Traits 3 times/2 traits remaining.

Suggestions :
(General)Your Mage and Priest both have access to daze. Make sure you use them for all fights as they make everything a cakewalk. On Torment both dazes are essential to being able to survive early game. Bolt of fire is your best friend early game, solid damage and very low mana cost. Summon creature can be used for an extra meatshield.

(Priest Specific)This character is a buffer/healer most of the time. Early game you'll be using Bolt of Fire/Daze to help out in fights (don't bother with smite unless they are undead as it does the same damage as Bolt of Fire but costs alot more mana). Don't forget she also has a summon creature if you want another meatshield.

Note that odds are you will not make enough money in the game to train all of those skills to +2, well maybe I've never actually tried. However on paper this is a pretty solid setup. If worst comes to worst make sure you you get all of the Tank's for his additional meatsheildness (yes that is now a word), then focus on your mage/priests. Already maxed skills obviously take priority for training.

What this build does...

-Enough Tool Use to open everything in the game.
-Enough Cave Lore to find every stash in the game.
-Enough Arcane Lore to learn everything in the game.
-Two characters that can use Daze. (Mage/Priest)
-Pretty much unkillable tank. (Pity the Challenger trait doesn't work properly)
-The strongest dps fighter possible.
-Total of +24 First Aid in your party, you will be full Health/Mana after every fight.

Probably more, but that is the key stuff.

Important Gear Tips :
-Don't forget to put bows with +hit chance on your fighters/mages even if you don't plan on using them. Due to the game's mechanics for fighters that adds the hit chance to their melee attack as well. For mages you'll want to use bows when you're trying to conserve mana in dungeonos.

-Same thing applies with shields on your Mage/Priest. There is no downside to giving them one and it boosts their armor up quite a bit. Just be sure not to get over encumbered or you won't be able to cast spells.

-Be smart with your armor, sometimes gaining a 2% higher armor bonus on a chestplate or a shield is NOT worth the extra -5% chance to hit that it also has on it.
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Randomizer Randomizer

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:55 AM #2 Casual/Normal/Hard

Riposte is somewhat useless since unlike previous Avernum and Geneforge games it no longer prevents you from taking damage.  It's no fun to see your foe die and then the next message is your character dying, too.
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Kinsume Kinsume

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:57 AM #3 Casual/Normal/Hard

When that character is a beefed up tank who barely noticed the hit on him and returns it in full, it helps his dps output I believe.

Edit : More so then a few more % for damage considering you can send the tank in first and have several enemies attack him and he returns 36% of those.
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Agitproprioception Agitproprioception

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:00 AM #4 Casual/Normal/Hard

You're misinterpreting Quick Action.  It doesn't reduce your fatigue recovery time by on average 60%, it increases your rate of recovery by 60%.  This is effectively like reducing your fatigue recovery time by about 37% on average.
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Kinsume Kinsume

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:03 AM #5 Casual/Normal/Hard

I was just going by numbers, I'll change that then.

Edit :

Ok the guide is pretty much done.
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Kinsume Kinsume

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:28 PM #6 Casual/Normal/Hard

I edited the tank to have Cave Lore instead of Tool Use since it adds poison and acid resist. Split the points between Mage/Priest to compensate.
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Juan Carlo Juan Carlo

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:32 AM #7 Casual/Normal/Hard

I am doing a torment game and decided early on not to put any points in First Aid, which I kind of regret now.  You certainly can get by easily without first aid, but it does mean lots of tedious trips back to down.  It's not so noticeable at first, but as your mages get the better spells they burn through manna fast.

It's maybe more of a luxury than a necessity, but being self-sustaining while exploring large dungeons is definitely something that, in retrospect, I'd give up a bit of power for.

Although I'm staunchly against editing.  Part of the fun of role playing, I think, is learning from mistakes and, more importantly, learning to live with and adapt to them.

Anyhow, my casters have reached level 17 with level 10 spellcraft so there's no reason to upgrade their base mage/priest stats anymore.  I was thinking of sticking points into hardiness and resilience for the remainder of the game just to give them a little extra durability.  Maybe I'll put those points in  first AID instead, though, as Hardiness means that I also have to waste an extra point in melee every other time.

Kinsume Kinsume

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:37 AM #8 Casual/Normal/Hard

Resistance combined with buffs is more than enough to keep them alive against enemies you can actually fight. For the ones you can't, those points in hardiness wouldn't matter anyways.
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Agitproprioception Agitproprioception

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:23 PM #9 Casual/Normal/Hard

I disagree.  12 points in Hardiness reduces almost all the damage you take by 36%.  That's nothing to laugh at.  It probably isn't strictly necessary, even on Torment, but it certainly helps!

I also hate the "run back to town" thing.  Unless I'm in a dungeon that doesn't allow me to freely come and go without fighting, and that's very rare, I just use "healmenow" and "imdrained" to save time on those stupid town trips.  I'm not normally a big fan of cheating, but I'm a big fan of cheating when it means cancelling out stupid design decisions like the inclusion of sandwich time.
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Kinsume Kinsume

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:25 PM #10 Casual/Normal/Hard

A design decision countered by points in First Aid. Essentially you'd rather cheat than invest points in it, is what you're saying.
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:33 PM #11 Casual/Normal/Hard

No.  If there WERE no "run back to town" option, I'd happily invest points in First Aid.  (Or pay for more potions, or whatever.)

I don't like to cheat to alter the game POSSIBILITIES.  But I have no compunctions about "cheating" when all you are really doing is avoiding a giant waste of time.
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esquivalient.abacot esquivalient.abacot

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:37 PM #12 Casual/Normal/Hard

yeah, having decent first aid is a great thing that saves your most valuable reasource - your actual RL time. and it keeps the game fresher and more fun without the boring patching up routine.
not for minmaxers but for more casual playing, i'd even recommend it.

Kendroxide Kendroxide

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:57 PM #13 Casual/Normal/Hard

It would of been nice if there was a "rest" feature similar to what Baldur's Gate had, where you get fully healed when you rest, but there is also a chance that you could get ambushed. Cave Lore could even be used to lower the chance to be ambushed (and make that skill semi-useful). But you would only be able to rest if that floor was fully cleared (or maybe a higher chance to get ambushed depending on how many enemies are left).

Kinsume Kinsume

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:39 PM #14 Casual/Normal/Hard

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
No.  If there WERE no "run back to town" option, I'd happily invest points in First Aid.  (Or pay for more potions, or whatever.)

I don't like to cheat to alter the game POSSIBILITIES.  But I have no compunctions about "cheating" when all you are really doing is avoiding a giant waste of time.

The options are use First Aid, Run back to town, use potions, or cheat to heal. The first option is completely viable, the second option is a pain but works, the third option is expensive, and the final option is still cheating regardless of your reasoning.

Which cheating is completely fine, but there is no justification for it aside from you wanted to cheat to save yourself time and skill points.
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Lilith Lilith

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:51 PM #15 Casual/Normal/Hard

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

I don't like to cheat to alter the game POSSIBILITIES.  But I have no compunctions about "cheating" when all you are really doing is avoiding a giant waste of time.


Well, I mean, how far does this reasoning go? Is it fair to cheat yourself up 5 levels because you have the option of fighting wandering monsters for hours to gain those levels legitimately?

Kinsume Kinsume

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:54 PM #16 Casual/Normal/Hard

Exactly. And everyone is entitled to play as they wish, I wouldn't have even commented further if you didn't deny what you were doing.
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