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A:EftP - Flaming negative critique


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Avernum: Escape from the Pit is the most disappointing Spiderweb Software game to date.

 

In fact, I truly believe that Avernum: Escape from the Pit marks the beginning of the end for Spiderweb Software.

 

======================

 

What Spiderweb Software should have done

 

1. Establish the best engine / libraries from Avernum 1-6, and "recompile" each game.

 

2. DO NOT rewrite Avernum 1-6. Especially DO NOT redo their graphics.

 

I look at Avernum: Escape from the Pit and think, "I feel sorry for the graphics people--what a waste of time and effort".

 

(I also condemn the graphics people. In many cases, the new graphics are worse than the original graphics. The new "World Map", for example, is horrendous.)

 

3. Port Avernum 1-6 to new platforms such as iPad. (Port, not rewrite)

 

4. Spiderweb Software desperately needs a new series.

 

Avadon is NOT it. Avadon is too similar to the Avernum series. (Avadon should be a "one off" like Nethergate.)

 

Spiderweb Software needs a new series that is as different from Geneforge and Avernum as Geneforge and Avernum are different from each other.

 

======================

 

How to save Spiderweb Software

 

Possibility #1

 

Somebody needs to buy out Spiderweb Software and set it back on the straight and narrow.

 

Jeff, do you really want to rewrite Avernum 2-6? REALLY? What a waste of time and effort. You are coding yourself into irrelevancy.

 

Possibility #2

 

Get some fresh blood on the Spiderweb Software team. Somebody who has a new story to tell. Somebody who has a new gameplay in mind.

 

 

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Personally, I think Avernum: EFTP is one of the finest Spiderweb releases in a long time.

 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Research is still useful. FYI, Spiderweb has three employees of whom only one is a developer; there are no "graphics people."

 

Of course, since you're giving an 18-year-old, consistently successful indie RPG company (that has been quite dramatically multiplying its audience over the last year) advice on how to "save" itself, without actually explaining the reasoning behind your criticism or your advice, I assume that means you are speaking from some kind of meaningful authority. Are you an indie developer, or from a software publishing outfit, or what?

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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
Personally, I think Avernum: EFTP is one of the finest Spiderweb releases in a long time.


It's also apparently selling very well, if not quite in the staggering game-changing numbers that Avadon was, so it doesn't seem likely that it will bankrupt Spiderweb.
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Personally Geneforge 5 was spiderweb's best game thus far, but that is just because of the play style. Avernum: EFTP, despite several things I don't like about it, there are also several things I do like. It's probably 3rd on my list of top spiderweb games, with the original Exile taking 2nd tongue

 

However I am in agreement with him that simply remaking the games a 2nd time probably isn't the best of ideas. No matter how much the gameplay and looks of a game change, someone can only want to do the same storylines over and over so many times before they get tired of it.

 

As he stated, a simple port of those games to make them playable on the newer operating systems would be more than acceptable and I'd imagine not that difficult.

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The sales of Avernum: Escape from the Pit are lower than Avadon because Jeff didn't advertise the port to iPad as heavily. I've seen complaints that Jeff isn't pushing his game enough.

 

Porting the older games is harder because the graphical interface needs to be rewritten from scratch. Jeff couldn't even sell Mac versions of Geneforge on Steam because the code used resource forks and Steam doesn't handle them.

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This is a fundamental difference of opinion. Jeff thinks he can bring in new customers with newer graphics and engines. It seems to work. Avadon worked better; it is, if I'm parsing Jeff's cagey comments right, by far the best seller Spiderweb has ever had. Spiderweb is farther from needing saving than it's ever been, and he's unlikely to mess with his new winning formula.

 

Your saving Spiderweb options are also impossible. Spiderweb isn't for sale; Jeff likes being his own boss. If he sold the company, he'd either go right back to doing what he's doing with a new company, new series, and largely the same customers (which might please you), or he'd quit, and the company would have a bunch of intellectual property you don't like and nothing else to show for it. The second option also doesn't work: Jeff doesn't seem to want to manage other people, and he does want to tell his own stories. If you want new, different stories in a new, different style, you want a new, different company.

 

—Alorael, who credits Jeff for being candid about sticking to a formula and churning out his games. They aren't for everyone, but they are for the fans of what he makes. But keep in mind that those fans were happy enough for the Exile to Avernum switch, on the whole. Not everyone was pleased, of course, but Jeff still isn't going to please everyone, and if you're in the unhappy minority you can go elsewhere or just wait out the current series.

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Quote:
4. Spiderweb Software desperately needs a new series.

Avadon is NOT it. Avadon is too similar to the Avernum series. (Avadon should be a "one off" like Nethergate.)

Spiderweb Software needs a new series that is as different from Geneforge and Avernum as Geneforge and Avernum are different from each other.


This part kind of confused me. What, preciously, do you find in Avadon that is "too similar" to Avernum? I can't even say that I see more resemblance to Geneforge - because I don't. Avadon is its own entity - several "world" maps, a major struggle involving politics as its center, it's own universe, party members with stories and personalities. Albeit the Bioware influence is pretty clear I don't get what you're getting at. I mean, what's the same? "Av"?

Unless you're getting at the graphics. Meh. If they looked fine in one game they can look good in another, imo.

(Also, while I have a few gripes about the narration of A:EftP and the opened-ended nature of the game (which I don't prefer over the more linear pace of Jeff's recent titles), it's still quite a fine game. The combat and engine is at its best in my opinion - all the changes introduced in G5 as far as buffing and such have been finessed excellently)

Edit: Also, Nethergate didn't sell very well. Had it sold enough to merit a sequel, you can bet your bottom dollar any developer with sense would have made a Nethergate 2.
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So let me see if I have this thread down correctly:

 

"Here are some personal opinions that I'm going to insist are facts that I will now use to spout hyperbole about how everything is doomed. Jeff didn't make what *I* wanted him to make so everything is ruined!"

 

That about sum it up?

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The only other direction Jeff has considered is making a science fiction universe game and that was the original intention with Geneforge. But Jeff didn't think the sales numbers would be as good as a fantasy setting.

 

Jeff hasn't had the sales numbers to justify going and making a game that fails. Avadon was his first big risk since the failure of Blades of Avernum. If sales stay at this level then maybe in 3 or more years he might consider something different.

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Going to address subsequent comments more than the original post, since I think the latter has been pretty thoroughly exploded:

 

I too would like to see Jeff focus on creating more original content and less on rewriting old games. That said, I still eagerly anticipated AEftP, and enjoyed playing it. I would've preferred an earlier release date for Avadon 2 (and given what a cow with golden udders the first Avadon has become, I can't think it would've been that bad a business decision), but I liked AEftP and I strongly suspect I'll like ACS and ARW as well.

 

Also, while making Geneforge a fantasy game may have gone against Jeff's starting vision, I think what he came to was actually more original and interesting. It's not as if sci fi games full of genetic tinkering are terribly rare (Resident Evil, FEAR, Deus Ex, Xenosaga, and so on ad nauseum), there just aren't many RPGs with that premise. The weird sci-fantasy hybrid that Geneforge ended up as, on the other hand, is actually pretty rare and distinctive. Not 100% original, but definitely less played out than either traditional science fiction or fantasy.

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I always thought of Geneforge as pure fantasy. Which is, ultimately, why I didn't like it. I actually prefer sci-fi over fantasy but Geneforge is just more of the same old fantasy, with some words that sound familiar from science but are used to describe magic. (I still bought all five of them, I just didn't enjoy playing them much...)

 

I liked Avadon more because it's at least honest about being fantasy. Unfortunately it has the same mechanics as any other random RPG I can buy today. Maybe they're all on to something and this is why they sell so well. I wouldn't use the same words as the OP ("Avadon is not the new series that Spiderweb needs") because clearly, if it makes money, that's what the company needs. But it's definitely not the kind of game that I was hoping for. If I was hoping for the kind of game that Avadon is then it would have been really easy to just go and buy that kind of game, ten times over. The only thing I couldn't have done was buy it for iPad, which is why I ended up buying Avadon on all three originally announced platforms: To vote with my wallet for games that are developed for iPad as well.

 

Of course, I completely disagree about the whole "no more remakes" thing. I think the new Avernum remake is one of the best RPGs I've played. I'll put up with more Avadons if it means there's enough money for more Avernum remakes, at least until Avernum 2 and 3 have been re-made smile

 

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@Danny: How are you defining sci-fi here? Because the phrase "with some words that sound familiar from science but are used to describe magic" already sounds like more than a lot of ostensibly science fiction settings bother with. By even including genetics in some hazy sense as a plot element, Geneforge is already dabbling more in real science than many space operas do (Star Wars is the most famous offender, but far from the only one). It's fine if you don't define space opera as science fiction, in fact I'm pretty sympathetic to that point of view (I favor the term 'sci-fantasy' for stories that are basically fantasy with laser guns), but the fact remains that many people do classify space operas as sci fi.

 

Regarding the remakes: as a few people on this thread have said, I've been playing SW games for a while now. I appreciate the shiny new interface, and like I said I had fun playing it, but the fact that AEftP's plot is almost identical to A1's, which is almost identical to E1's, makes it lose some of its luster for me. I was genuinely surprised by some of the plot twists in Avadon and the later Avernum and Geneforge games, but that can't really happen to me with AEftP unless I acquire some form of retrograde amnesia. And while I like Jeff's games a lot, I don't like them quite enough to risk dangerous cerebral trauma in order to play them 'fresh.'

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Originally Posted By: Danny the Fool
If I was hoping for the kind of game that Avadon is then it would have been really easy to just go and buy that kind of game, ten times over.


Could you do me a favor and point me into the direction of those ten other games that I could buy?

Because Wizardry 8 came in 2001, Icewind Dale 2 came 2002, Temple of Elemental Evil cam 2003, and since then there have been no strategic party based RPG released by any major company (for the PC).

And as much as I like the concept of independant development, in my experience a large part of independant titles come with downright unplayable user interfaces and rule concepts. To my current knowledge, the Spiderweb games have been the only relevant contribution to the sub-genre over the last decade.

But I am always ready to change my mind, so if you could point out some enjoyable independant party based RPGs of the last decade, no matter how played out the scenario, I would be quiet thankfull indeed.
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For the folks new to Spiderweb Games brought in by Avadon, the remakes are fresh. There are also a number of us who came much later to the party and haven't been willing (or able because of changes in computer systems) to run the earlier games with less pleasing visuals. So from that perspective, remakes make sense.

 

Also remember that there are two major elements to creating a game, the content and the coding. It may well be that if he weren't doing the remakes it would not significantly speed up the delivery of the next Avadon because he has to completely create the new content as well as code it all. Jeff may well work better in parallel, coding the Avernum remakes based on largely extant content, while also creating the new content for Avadon 2 which he is likely now coding into the actual game.

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Originally Posted By: Illegal Furniture
By even including genetics in some hazy sense as a plot element, Geneforge is already dabbling more in real science than many space operas do (Star Wars is the most famous offender, but far from the only one).


It's not necessarily the real science. Star Wars has no grounding in science at all. I don't mind if it's real or not; that's the difference between sci-fi and hard sci-fi. But there should be something that resembles science in some way and is still recognizable as science.

Some people define science fiction as something that includes lots of advanced technology. On first glance, Star Wars does have that. On second look, though, none of it is explained in any way, which leaves it indistinguishable from magic. There's even some outright magic in the force until some joker decided to make more movies. ;-)

Some people define science fiction as something that explores a possible future. However, even then, the events described in Star Wars happen "a long time ago". So it's either epic high fantasy, or it's a fairytale, but not science fiction. ;-)

Geneforge, though, is described (on its web site) as a "fantasy role-playing game" in which you play a member of one of the "most powerful magical guilds". There is no grounding in science or the scientific method.

Quote:

Regarding the remakes: as a few people on this thread have said, I've been playing SW games for a while now. I appreciate the shiny new interface, and like I said I had fun playing it, but the fact that AEftP's plot is almost identical to A1's, which is almost identical to E1's, makes it lose some of its luster for me.


Okay, no plot twists, that's true. That only one aspect for me. I'm happy that I can play Avernum on a modern tablet computer so I'm willing to accept that I know the overall story. I play most RPGs more than once anyway.

-----

Originally Posted By: ShieTar
Could you do me a favor and point me into the direction of those ten other games that I could buy?

Because Wizardry 8 came in 2001, Icewind Dale 2 came 2002, Temple of Elemental Evil cam 2003, and since then there have been no strategic party based RPG released by any major company (for the PC).


Dragon Age O, A, 2, Mass Effect 1, 2, 3, the newer Fallouts were all strategic party-based RPGs by major companies. You can't control the entire party fully, but the same is true of Avadon. There were some titles by smaller companies, such as Drakensang and its sequel. You also missed some older titles such as Arcanum and some more polarizing ones like NWN 1 and 2.

Now had you asked about something similar to classic, open, party-based CRPGs that would be more like Wasteland than like Fallout, and so on, that would be considerably harder. However, Avadon doesn't belong in this category either.

Quote:

To my current knowledge, the Spiderweb games have been the only relevant contribution to the sub-genre over the last decade.


I'm not aware of many recent *indie* RPGs. The Eschalon games have a similar look and feel but they're not party based. I never claimed I could buy tons of indie RPGs, though. I don't care who makes my games as long as they're good and I have no preference for indie developers.
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Originally Posted By: Danny the Fool
Dragon Age O, A, 2, Mass Effect 1, 2, 3, the newer Fallouts were all strategic party-based RPGs by major companies.


The real-time combat in those games is a pretty big difference from what players of older RPGs grew up with, I think. It changes the strategic nature of combat dramatically.
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Yes, turn based is important to the discussion because (1) some of us don't want the fights of our amazing heroes hampered by our own lack of manual dexterity or reaction time, and (2) AI control that has the heroes smart enough to create barriers and a flaming oil trap to bottle-neck attackers, but stupid enough to stand so far away that you can't even see the enemy until it's past your trap, or that has the mindless undead enemy smart enough to run around the flaming oil, and your brilliant fighters dumb enough to run straight through it to attack them. (Yes, I'm looking at you Dragon Age: Origins.)

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I don't think real time is a major distinction. You can pause and think of your next move if you're that slow with your clicks. Classics like all the Infinity Engine games are basically real time too, just with many auto pause options and the ability to give orders while paused. I'm not sure if Dragon Age retains that part but it's certainly not a game for twitch action buffs or to be avoided by people who can't keep up with said games. Nor does it require Starcraft levels of speedy micro management. If it's to be avoided, it's because it's so boring. So Dragon Age is a valid example, but it also shows how rare games of this sort are, especially since even its sequel took a different approach, though the next one may revert.

 

There were also games like Dungeon Master which while older are real time. But of course they're dungeon crawls, not CRPGs (get Legend of Grimrock if you like these games).

 

The Fallout and Elder Scrolls and Mass Effect games are not comparable. I mean, I can see Mass Effect being somewhat party based even though control is limited and the games aren't RPGs, just generic third person shooters with dating sim dialogue choices, but come on, the recent Elder Scrolls and Fallouts? What, because you can have crappy NPCs accompany you? They're like Diablo II henchmen, not part of a party. Which isn't a bad thing, it works for those games I guess (even the original turn based Fallout doesn't allow full party control, it's a single character game with optional AI companions), but it's not what's being discussed.

 

The only hope for actual party based CRPGs beyond Spiderweb's offerings are whatever Basilisk are cooking up (next to Book III) and the newly funded Wasteland 2 and Shadowrun Returns. Maybe if that Neverwinter project from Atari takes off too, but who knows what form it will take. And probably some more obscure games here and there, like those Drakensang games. Hardly a wealth of options, especially if you come to dislike some.

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Yes, you can pause the action in DA and alter orders and so on, but it's a much bigger pain in the rear than a turn-based game. You may not think it's a major distinction, but lots of other people do. It's not just the reflex element of real-time or pseudo real-time combat, either.

 

EDIT for additional commentary:

 

I did enjoy DA:O, but not so much that I would buy the sequel after I read the reviews that they moved it away from the parts I enjoyed and toward the mindless violence. Of course, the problem with any anecdotal review is that we each bring our unstated preferences. I don't care about parties so much as I prefer turn-based play. I generally prefer an isometric view or a moveable camera angle over a hard first-person POV. And while I'm not a total graphics snob, I have a level of graphical immaturity that I won't sink below.

 

Way back when I was in high school, I had a friend who so loved the complex math of physical interaction that he created his own RPG that required players to keep a slide rule handy to figure out the results of any action. Sometimes reading the in-depth analyses of certain regulars on here, I think they'd have loved my friend's game, but it didn't get past two weeks in our gaming group.

 

My point in this is that Jeff's objective is to find a game that is satisfying enough for a large enough group of people to make him a decent income to support his family, while sticking with the kinds of games he seems to enjoy most--turn based RPGs.

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Sorry but your main points in the previous post were the potential lack of player dexterity and the AI of the so called party. Both of which can be bypassed if you can pause and if you don't have to let the AI do anything and instead take over every action. So that's what I replied to. If you have more issues with real time solutions like the Infinity Engine games feel free to mention them and I may respond but anyway, you may think it's a a major distinction but lots of other people don't, if you wanna be like that wink

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PS - The AI can't really be bypassed because when you program your choices and release the pause, all actions from every character and monster on the screen start back up at the same time, and the AI has to deal with what changes (did the enemy you were planning to attack move out of range, but you told your fighter not to move forward because you were tired of him running into flaming oil slicks so now he's just standing there like an idiot?).

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The main reason I play indie games is for turn based combat. Not because real-time is difficult or anything, I'm actually quite good at rts games like Starcraft 2. However I like to take a break and play turn based games like these as there is more fine tuned planning in the moves you makes rather than reacting and judgement based decisions.

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@Agnates: I didn't miss those titles, I did play at least both Dragon Ages, both NWNs, and both Drakensangs. Also two parts of Knights of the Old Republic. And Arcanum, but I think that was at least a full decade ago? And while I enjoyed playing all of those games, none of them did feel like a real turn-based game.

 

But personally I think there is a little difference between the "find some followers" system and a real party based RPG, and of the above only NWN2-SoZ gave you the option to fully create your own party as you wanted it. And the other two parts of NWN2 with some mods, but that just made them trivially easy.

 

And while the NWNs at least have a strategic component in character planing, where most others were mostly balanced towards "play what you want", neither of those titles had anything resembling tactical battles.

 

Of course you CAN pause and order in these games. But that only gets them a little closer to turn-based, but not to strategic. You do not know beforehand if it will take two or three attacks to finish off that one mage, so you end up just focusing everybodys attack on him. And then you end the pause, and like Kreador said, everybody starts acting at once and messing up your planing. And since there is a realtime system beneath, you often have to wait for the already started round of attacks to play through before your given commands will even be executed. The only exception to this I know are the infinity engine games, which had a "Pause each turn" option.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I wouldn't mind a nice Sci-Fi game from Jeff either. Or a even something completely different, like a gunpowder area setting. But the last thing I think when looking at one of his existing titles is "Oh no, not annother one of those".

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"In fact, I truly believe that Avernum: Escape from the Pit marks the beginning of the end for Spiderweb Software."

 

I should be so lucky.

 

"Somebody needs to buy out Spiderweb Software and set it back on the straight and narrow."

 

Yes! Somebody do this! Teach me a lesson! There's lots of money in the world! Somebody give a lot of it to me! That'll show me!

 

- Jeff Vogel

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Wow what a [censored] post.. (the first post)

 

I loved Escape From The Pit and finished it a few days ago, and i've played most of the games from Spiderweb software.

 

The last rpg I finished was Mass Effect 3 which I similarly got addicted to and kept playing.

 

Before that I tried Kingdoms of Amalur and it was pretty bad. I kind of made myself play it, the graphics are pretty modern in that, and Escape from the pit, yes the graphics are simple, but it's awesome and it goes deep.. and really draws you in.

 

Am I the only one who thinks the original poster just wants some attention. smile

 

And the Geneforge games were really good, I finished several of them. I hope there is a next one coming out soon. smile

 

 

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Dominance, don't make negative insinuations about people for posting their opinions about a game. Having an account here doesn't come with an obligation to like every single game that Spiderweb Software makes. I don't agree with all of lukematt's criticisms, but he's allowed to make them.

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Exile III and AEFTP are number 1 and 2 respectively on my personal Greatest RPG Of All Time list. And Exile II which I am currently playing thru again is number 3! This from one who has played NWN, ME2, BG2, KB etc.....none of which made me fall in love like the first time smile

 

BTW, I do not see AEFTP and the coming two ACS, ARW as being remakes anymore but rather a parallel universe to Exile. Anyone else feel the same way?

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Originally Posted By: Kinsume
I just want to see 6 party member slots added back in. frown


I do usually prefer 6 member partys over 4 member ones, but they only really make sense if you have at least 6 "classes", or playing styles, available. With the rules as they are today, two more members would be mostly copies of already existing members, just a little more powerfull since you can split Tool Use, Cavern Lore and First Aid among two more PCs.

Thus, in this case with the current rules as they are, I have to say I prefer 4 members.
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Originally Posted By: Gon
Exile III and AEFTP are number 1 and 2 respectively on my personal Greatest RPG Of All Time list. And Exile II which I am currently playing thru again is number 3! This from one who has played NWN, ME2, BG2, KB etc.....none of which made me fall in love like the first time smile

BTW, I do not see AEFTP and the coming two ACS, ARW as being remakes anymore but rather a parallel universe to Exile. Anyone else feel the same way?

What's KB?

It's probably helpful to think of it as a parallel universe, given that there are some differences, but it's a remake. Maybe a parallel remake.

Originally Posted By: Kinsume
Not with the edits that House is currently making it won't be.

Despite the name displayed, he goes by Slarty. This might clear up who some of us are talking to/about, and give him consistent forms of address.

—Alorael, who doesn't think Slarty's changes go all that far. Fighters are still fighters. The equipment choice is a little bit more significant, and there are real choices rather than better and worse options, but guys with weapons still hit monsters and the casters still lob spells.
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Originally Posted By: Lilith
Originally Posted By: Danny the Fool
Dragon Age O, A, 2, Mass Effect 1, 2, 3, the newer Fallouts were all strategic party-based RPGs by major companies.


The real-time combat in those games is a pretty big difference from what players of older RPGs grew up with, I think. It changes the strategic nature of combat dramatically.


I stumbled across a turn-based RPG implemented in flash. It's a parody of console-based games I haven't played, but I've enjoyed it anyway: Mardek: Chapter 1. (Chapter 3 is when the party construction choices really open up.)

It's surprisingly deep: the elemental rock/paper/scissors is, if anything, overly complex - probably for the sake of parody; battles play differently with different NPCs; the characters are endearing. I particularly like the fact that the NPCs don't auto-level, so that you need to make hard choices between using the ones that are immediately helpful (e.g., a fire-specialist blaster) vs. training up the ones that will be more versatile in the future.

The forum isn't necessarily easy to find, but very helpful, so here's a link.

Probably the worst thing about the game for me is that it encourages grinding to get rare drops, especially since completing a quest can cause monster spawning to stop in an area. The information in the forum and wiki is especially helpful for knowing what items are important to acquire and/or conserve for later crafting.


This promotional turn-based flash game based on the Dragon Age franchise is also fun, though short: Dragon Age: Journeys. (I haven't played the actual Dragon Age games.)
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Ah, nothing like scathing, totally nonconstructive criticism laced with baseless accusations and ignorance, eh?

 

And some wonder why developers rank forum input on the low end of design input...

 

 

If you want to effect change, raging against the machine/Jeff isn't going to do it. Try writing an in-depth review, hit the high and low points alike to establish a lack of bias and credibility, try to throw in some semblance of wit, and come to the table with specific instances and examples for your complaints.

 

Throwing a tantrum at the designer is... well, you got enough of Jeff's attention for him to stick his head in and give you a proverbial raspberry, and if that's all you're after, well... congratulations. Otherwise... settle down, compile and rationalize your feelings, and don't expect to influence anyone with trash talk and rage.

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