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A:EftP - What Encounters Are Too Hard?


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I am going to rebalance some of the boss fights for v1.0.1 to make them easier. If there was a boss or encounter that you found particularly frustrating or that you had to leave return to many times, please let me know here.

 

Be sure to be specific about the name of the boss and what dungeon they were in. Remember, it's a huge game. "The leader of the bandits" won't tell me enough.

 

Any extra details about what specific thing you can remember making the fight hard (a particular spell or ability) would help.

 

Thank you!

 

- Jeff Vogel

 

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Disclaimer: I didn't find anything too hard; I was *delighted* to find some difficulty.

 

That said, the two most difficult-at-the-time were the fiery demons in the bat cave (because I tried to do them too early; but heck, it was just bats and rats down there, right?) and the slime-summoning Slith leader (Tsschik or something?) because I failed to manage his hp to avoid being too swarmed by threshold-triggered summons.

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Seconded on the bat cave. For me, it wasn't that encounters there were too difficult per se, but that the jumps in difficulty occurred so abruptly. While it's easy to go to over-level areas in this game, it usually necessitates at least going elsewhere on the world map, or certain marked optional areas (the crypt in the nephar prisoners level, Blossthus in the nephil fortress). There's very little warning in the transition between the initial bat area in the bat cave, which is doable in the first few levels, and the central area with the rats, which will rip apart a party of that level. Depending on the last place the player saved, it can be hard to even make it out alive without cheating.

 

As for bosses that were too hard for their dungeons: I didn't find any egregious ones, but there are a few that could stand to be rebalanced. Tassik-Schai and his retinue deserve mention for the sheer number of (moderately dangerous) adds that spawn. The spectral commander in the spiral pit for similar reasons: while his summons are less numerous, they're also surprisingly powerful for what is otherwise a low-mid level dungeon. I came here later in the game (level ≥ 20), and breezed through the rest of the dungeon, but the commander was a definite challenge, so I imagine he would be a nightmare for a more level-appropriate party.

 

The battle in the slith fortification (the one in the scree pits) is quite difficult, primarily because it's hard to avoid getting the attention of most of the fort's population at once. Gunkass himself is pretty hard, but not abnormally so.

 

The Fortress of Grah-Hoth in general was also a noticeable jump in difficulty. Grah-Hoth was quite hard, once again because of the number of powerful enemies he summons. Hawthorne uses similar tactics, but I found him easier overall, because while both bring in swarms of adds, Grah-Hoth and his minions make liberal use of debuffs, while Hawthorne's mostly just damage you. Assuming the player uses at least some invulnerability potions for each fight (and really, if not now, when?), having the ability to debilitate the party as well as damage them makes the Grah-Hoth fight especially dangerous.

 

Teal Deer: the battles that gave me the most trouble were the ones with a lot of enemy summons/minions.

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I'm not entirely through the game yet, but I guess you'd like feedback as quickly as possible, so -

 

- I'm playing on hard setting, standard party, and no problems so far. I'm an experienced player but certainly not a min/maxing torment guy, and I'm feeling very comfortable with the difficulty. If anything, it could be higher.

 

(I'm aware that there are lots of people saying it's too hard right now, and I think I have just the idea to ease things up - field spells!! Whooo!!)

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Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno

I'm aware that there are lots of people saying it's too hard right now, and I think I have just the idea to ease things up - field spells!! Whooo!!)

Sorry to pollute this thread but I think it's exactly my problem. I don't have enough spells and not enough powerful or perhaps I haven't discovered all books. I feel I have a money problem, really short, I don't steal anything quoted NY but I doubt it's the source of my problem.

What's irritating is I don't see much what I did wrong and I used the editor to make a different party matching description of some post and it's not the problem too.
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Right now I am currently planning for v1.0.1 to nerf

 

* The Spiral Pit Boss. - I really did want this tone a much tougher fight the party can return for, but this dungeon is just wayyy too close to the start for trickery like this.

 

* Middle/Final Bat Cave Foes - Same deal.

 

* Tassik-Schai - This is a fight that is WAY more difficult on Hard/Torment than Normal. The slimes get buffed a lot when on a higher difficulty. I'm going to ease this up a lot on Hard and a little on Normal.

 

- Jeff Vogel

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The trouble ones I have ran into so far were:

 

Tassik-Schai was tough for both the girlfriend and I but we were both able to beat it without having to come back by using a bit of strategy.

 

The chief in Underground Fortress, but I assume this fits in as the first time we are there were supposed to be "sneaky"

 

Blossthus in Neph Fortress. This one I did have to come back for after I cleared out the rest.

 

I managed the Spiral Pit one, and even a bit before I should have but there again I used strategy over brute force.

 

So mostly for me it was just the one or two early on and things have evened out now. I also think it was because I had not focused enough of my points into my main attribute and/or battle skills as I was getting my cave lore/tool use up. Now that I have focused more on those points I don't miss over 50% of the time like I did early on. BTW now = my lv 18 party and early on = my party around lv 10-14.

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The biggest problem I'm having is trying to figure out where to go when. I blundered into the Slith island too early after getting the quest at Cotra. Came back many levels later (after visiting Micah) and it still seems awfully difficult. I don't think I'm going to go upstairs yet. Not sure quite where to go next. Indeed I'm a bit concerned there's an area I've skipped that will be far too easy when I get there.

 

So I'm not sure if anything can be done to appease those of us who might prefer a more linear approach or at least clues as to how to do that. I can handle hard difficulty if I'm prepared for it but it's more annoying if I keep randomly bumbling into it. (Especially after enjoying your more recent games where this isn't an issue).

 

I tried reading one of the old walkthroughs for the original Avernum to get a clue as to the progress order but it wasn't detailed enough. Maybe somewhere publish a rough hint of areas to tackle in order?

 

Still, enjoying the game, glad I bought it, keep up the great work, etc.

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The issue I find is that you get a lot of stuff in the demo area that feels like you should be going after the sliths ASAP. But the party is not ready for that, and really needs to be directed to the Great Cave. Once you do a lot of jobs in the Great Cave, then the sliths become easy.

 

But that is less about nerfing and more about player direction.

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Originally Posted By: Spidweb
Right now I am currently planning for v1.0.1 to nerf

* The Spiral Pit Boss. - I really did want this tone a much tougher fight the party can return for, but this dungeon is just wayyy too close to the start for trickery like this.
...

I'm on this one, party level 12 which quite late. It's not a boss that kill in one hit but in one round my more resistant character (but perhaps it's not physical damages I haven't check).

With plenty trickery and some luck I can lead the fight to the corridor to one vs one. But when it's turn of the boss two hits in one round kill my character with full health, max spell protection and I have one potion of invulnerability but 5 rounds will be impossible.

I learned slow to try reduce the two attacks in one round into one, but it's not working, and now zero gold for trying slow level 2.

At this point of the game I don't see what to do next and if you want check this through a save (I'm certainly wrong) PM or post and I'll send a save.

EDIT: Dam I forget try the trick with Shield Breaker. If it works because often bosses are immune to the immobilization. But worth a try, mpf let try once more.
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The Spiral Pit boss fight was hard for me the first time because I was at 70% to hit chance versus the boss and needed invulnerability potions to keep the lead character alive while the others destroyed everything else.

 

Coming back a few levels later when I was over 90% to hit chance made a major difference.

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I should have check that before, but the boss is hitting with cold damages, mpf. Well I'm a newbie I sold not so long ago one armor with few cold protection and low physical protection. But I have some other stuff available for increasing cold protection, worth a try.

 

EDIT: I could improve a little bit cold protection of front character but not enough to resist two attacks. Then plan with Shield Breaker didn't produce much result because of the magical long range attack of this boss. Ha well.

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
The Spiral Pit boss fight was hard for me the first time because I was at 70% to hit chance versus the boss and needed invulnerability potions to keep the lead character alive while the others destroyed everything else.

Coming back a few levels later when I was over 90% to hit chance made a major difference.

Is there an easy way to see your to-hit chance?
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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Endurance helps you avoid getting hit by cold attacks and increases your health so you won't die so soon.

Well my front character has already 10 in END at level 12, I think that should be enough and don't plan put any more points in it.

I also got the feeling that END from items adds nothing to resistances but I don't know the special math used and there's perhaps just some rounding.

Originally Posted By: Soul of Wit

Is there an easy way to see your to-hit chance?

The game shows it in log each time you attack. It's an important information to observe. Or you can just follow advices in some threads, wear nothing that decrease To Hit, put all attribute points in the class main attribute expect perhaps a few for Endurance, focus your skills on the 2/3 useful all other are pointless. I'd wish that ironical but I'm not even sure it is.

Originally Posted By: Beer and Motor Oil
Noooo!
Sigh. The problem with being a PC user is that the game is going to be nerfed before I get to it.
I saw all these threads about "It's too hard" and my heart and soul were just screaming YESSSSS!
Oh well. frown

Lol, but only Normal and Hard are targeted, not Torment, and reading your post you certainly play only Torment. smile
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Ok...

 

Someone said:

Quote:
1) Clean out the dungeon

2) Charge straight into the boss, get slaughtered and TPK'd.

3) Reload. Use better buffs and better tactics. Get slaughtered.

4) Repeat #3 a few times with similar results.

5) Give up, leave. Do a few quests, clear out another dungeon. Gain several levels.

6) Return, try the boss again. Kill him after a tough but rewarding fight that demanded optimum tactics and item usage.

 

I've observed this all over the place. The Nephilim fortress, the Nephar fortress, the Slith island fortress near Cotra, the Slith temple, the crypt near Formello, the Mertis Spiral, the Slith fort north of Fort Emerald...

 

What he said. The cherry picking is not bueno. When my party's ready, I wanna go in there and emerge well-worn but victorious. Sometimes the minions drop dead at my feet and the boss still mops the floor with me. There is no specific battle, it seems to be everywhere.

 

Quote:
after i went to castle n my party lv14 everywhere i go it freaking hard i cant do even mini-quest

my melee-tank and pole-damage dealer keep missing attack , no damage

 

It's true, the fighters just fan the bad guys with their swords against tougher enemies. They even miss when they use their super melee thingies! I can't imagine playing without magic.

 

I noticed the difficulty early on when fighting the kitties. "These kitties," I noted, "aren't dropping dead like they're supposed to. They used to be al dente and now they're pretty chewy."

 

I like the new content, but I miss the old open spaces. Getting rid of all that space is what anyone in the game business would say to do... but I'm not so sure. Searching all that open space adds a certain something. Not sure what.

 

There you have it. Thanks!

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Bugs. While I have your ear:

 

The mouse and cursor keys do not always work when attacking with a buff (not haste or blessings, the other kind). Sometimes they do, sometimes I have to type a letter.

 

The area spells are difficult to place. Often I want to put it right in a hole in the middle... can't.

 

Approaching a boss in fight mode sometimes does not start the dialog. Sometimes you have to go back to peace, and move (if I remember correctly?). This happened with some goblins early in the game.

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Originally Posted By: blackwight
Approaching a boss in fight mode sometimes does not start the dialog. Sometimes you have to go back to peace, and move (if I remember correctly?). This happened with some goblins early in the game.


This has happened to me repeatedly with the spirit commander guy in the Spiral Pit (after revisiting the place, losing, leaving to level up, and then return several times, I finally beat it!).
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Wow, that final Spiral Pit boss fight was insane. Took me hours to do w/ a 13th level party, w/ many different attempts. Not sure what the suggested level should be for that fight, but damn that was a bear.

 

One independent complaint I could make: if your precious Return Life scroll is not going to bring anyone back b/c of spacing issues--don't let that burn up the scroll! That is just cheap and wrong.

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One litmus test: how hard were the other encounters in the spiral pit? If they were also very hard, you were probably just underleveled. If the non-boss encounters were easy (as I found), or challenging but not tremendously so, then it's fair to say that the boss's difficulty is out of proportion with the rest of the level.

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Most of the undead and fungi were very easy the first time I tried this dungeon, on the way to the ToM. The ambush was hard enough to be a satisfying boss fight: longish and challenging with a real danger of TPK when my lead fighter got charmed. And if my priest hadn't summoned a shade to guard her back, she would have been toast. Or brains on toast, I guess.

 

The actual boss fight was simply impossible until I came back with more power. Could not do enough damage or heal fast enough to survive. Ran out of resurrection scrolls and gave up.

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I definitely wasn't optimized for that fight--didn't even have Mass Healing. But a lifesaver for sure was my Shade, who was immune to most of the attackers' damage, and drew aggro quite well depending on where it was positioned.

 

I feel like I've been playing the infamous Demon's Souls on the PS3 ;-)

 

Now let's see how I fare against another pre-nerf boss fight, the Slith leader on that island...

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I would say:

 

1) Spiral pit boss. Blew through the rest of the monsters easily enough to walk into the final encounter with over half my spell points left and no mana potions used, and then lost one character per round to the ghoul swarm. Came back several levels later and lived long enough to face the summons, which then slaughtered me. Again, had to go away and come back at higher level. And that black-out area makes this the most annoying of all dungeons to come back to.

 

2) Definitely agree about the huge and unexpected difficulty jumps in the bat cave. The bats are easy even at low levels, but then you stumble upon the rats...

 

3) I didn't have the problem with Tassik-Schai that others have. Perhaps I was just higher level when I got there.

 

4) My big problem, though, was that it just seemed hard to find level-appropriate dungeons in the level 3-7ish range. You've got the Goblin Cave, the Brigand Fort, and I think the Underground Fort (is that the one with the rear entrance by the river?). But, after that, it's really hard to find something to do next that you can handle. Around level 10, you start being able to take on the Slith, and then there's a ton to do. But there was a point between the early Nephil dungeons and the Slith where I had a lot of trouble finding something I could finish off without having to leave sections for when I was higher level (see Bat Cave and Spiral Pit, for example).

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Originally Posted By: Fael

4) My big problem, though, was that it just seemed hard to find level-appropriate dungeons in the level 3-7ish range. You've got the Goblin Cave, the Brigand Fort, and I think the Underground Fort (is that the one with the rear entrance by the river?). But, after that, it's really hard to find something to do next that you can handle. Around level 10, you start being able to take on the Slith, and then there's a ton to do. But there was a point between the early Nephil dungeons and the Slith where I had a lot of trouble finding something I could finish off without having to leave sections for when I was higher level (see Bat Cave and Spiral Pit, for example).


I would have to agree wholeheartedly with this, it seemed like there was a gap with little to do after saving the prisoners in the Nephil Fort (not being able to kill the chief), I was kinda at a loss, aimlessly wandering looking for stuff to level up on.
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Quote:
I would have to agree wholeheartedly with this, it seemed like there was a gap with little to do after saving the prisoners in the Nephil Fort (not being able to kill the chief), I was kinda at a loss, aimlessly wandering looking for stuff to level up on.


I'll third that. I'd call it more levels 7-10 in my game, but in either case the time after one finishes the Formello, Cotra, and Fort Duvno quests seems one of the most aimless. By the time you hit the teens, there are many level-appropriate quests, plus being a level or three under tends to be a lot less crippling in the teens and twenties than in the early game.
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I haven't yet pinpoint for sure why I got sometimes that feeling of something wrong with difficulty, it was mainly levels 6-12 and during level 16 but well that was too short to be significant.

 

Exploits:

The more I play the game the more I realize the numerous quick path and exploit that could be done, and a difficulty test shouldn't exploit all those stuff soon. For example I found the Healing All spell only at level 13 and it's at level 13 that my feeling changed (no idea if there's really any link at same time I also learned few more spells). It's a simple example but there's many other.

 

Not get lost between the 40 quests on the go and the attempts:

I realized I had difficulties to remember when I had already tried a dungeon or quest or special fight, I suspect multiple time I was trying again too soon some of them. I end track all quests in a sheet and quote those tried and failed and at what level, and those not yet tried. I started do it also roughly before my feeling of the difficulty changed.

 

Shortage of money:

A lot of my problems was coming from a shortage of money. It's a difficult matter because almost all RPG ends rather fast in providing too much money. I didn't throw money through the window, but still bought a few stuff when spending for spells would have help quite much, but it's not for much more than 4k (one training, one helm, one armor, plus few minor stuff) still significant, and I was stealing no YN, so perhaps about 2/3k more lost, from an estimate after to have change this and entered fully in the stealing game (also after level 13).

 

Difficulties to identify difficulty level:

  • By anticipation from game information or monsters expected (those undead here are pinuts and here are top level).
  • From a first attempt to get an estimate when it will be doable.
  • From numerous mini boss fights finally win after a very long fight and a lot of hassle and items used, it's hard to keep track what's the right difficulty to expect.

The new option "acts in roster order" is questionable:

It is difficult to understand that unconventional mechanism, because of its effect on initiative management. I bet many players could do like I did and failed into the trap to not get how it works. And put some heavy slow tank in front and then lost any control on initiative through class building. Make it less obscure or even not the default could help some players.

 

With such party and setup, slow tank in front and option activated, it generates a ton of awful fights beginning with all enemies acting first. This is increasing the difficulty feeling for no reason.

 

It's for outdoor encounters but not only, when exploring normally a dungeon even with care, it will make a fight often harder until you reload and try by stating in fighting mode. That sort of stuff is increasing the feeling of difficulty.

 

In my case, removing this default option changed a lot the general feeling, once more something I did before get a feeling change about the difficulty at level 13.

 

All of that is just a series of feeling, I have no arguing that the game should be easier or harder, I just know I didn't felt it good during some part of the game.

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Vent makes some good points, but I especially agree with this:

 

Originally Posted By: Vent

The new option "acts in roster order" is questionable:

It is difficult to understand that unconventional mechanism, because of its effect on initiative management. I bet many players could do like I did and failed into the trap to not get how it works. And put some heavy slow tank in front and then lost any control on initiative through class building. Make it less obscure or even not the default could help some players.

 

Acting in roster order can be an option, but it should not be the default setting. I only discovered it by accident--looking at all the settings is not normally the first thing I do.

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One thing about money, particularly early on, is to remember to loot the battle fields before going back to peace when you have encounters out in the open world. Lots more stuff to sell that way. It can get tight, especially early on, though.

 

It would be a nice change if it was possible for all non-zero value items dropped by dead enemies in a battle were automatically added to your junk bag. That might be difficult to program, though.

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Agree with the idea of a "get all" button associated with the "ground" screen. If done, activating the button should only get items with value >0 (sorting out all of those green cloaks, amber tunics, and rocks would get annoying very quickly).

 

I also agree that there appears to be a leveling gap between around level 6 and 10. About the phase where my party graduated from Nephilim to (attempting to fight) the Slith, I started to experience the gap.

 

I turned-off the "roster order", for all the reasons stated. It was strange having half of my party wiped at the outset of an outdoor encounter, before my high-initiative types could even move.

 

A question I've not seen addressed: as I recall from the original Avernum (and, I confess, I've not played that version in years) buffs and debuffs were cumulative. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that this is now the case with the updated game. Can anyone confirm whether these are cumulative? Thanks.

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Originally Posted By: Kreador
It would be a nice change if it was possible for all non-zero value items dropped by dead enemies in a battle were automatically added to your junk bag. That might be difficult to program, though.


The problem with that is that good stuff (i.e., stuff you want to use, rather than sell) would also get added to your junk bag and would be easy to miss. For most players, I expect that this would create more problems than it solves.

More to the point, the current system doesn't generate all that much in the way of people writing to Jeff complaining about it, whereas people missing good items would probably result in tons of complaints. The people who are annoyed by the current system are mildly irritated. People who accidentally sold the Jade Halberd because it got added to their junk bag without them noticing would be furious. Therefor, I wouldn't hold my breath on this...
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Quote:
A question I've not seen addressed: as I recall from the original Avernum (and, I confess, I've not played that version in years) buffs and debuffs were cumulative. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that this is now the case with the updated game. Can anyone confirm whether these are cumulative? Thanks.


They're not cumulative. Some statuses (like cloaks and wards) increase in power as the spell levels up, but one application remains all one needs. Further castings just refresh duration, and for some spells give an extra chance to cause 'bonus' statuses (battle frenzy on high level haste, spine shield on high level war blessing, etc.).
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The "interesting" items are already picked up separately in the open-world battles where there's a particular item. I'm just talking about all the leather armor, and fine cloaks, and crude broadswords, and emeralds, and stuff that drop in the course of the fight. It's not particularly difficult to pick that stuff up, but the first few times you get into those fights you probably don't realize that you need to (or can) pick those things up before you exit the fight screen.

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It evolved from outdoor encounters to all encounters hence the confusion.

 

A solution could be just for outdoor encounters, instead of having a new functionality, in case there's still some items on field a confirmation dialog could offer cancel quit so you have the chance to quote the items and pick them. And an option would allow not get the dialog if there's only items with no value.

 

EDIT:

And about a more general mechanism, not specially for outdoor, I tend agree with Fael post. Current solution isn't perfect but an automatic system will spoil some charm of discovering the jewel among the crap, and could cause some serious troubles.

 

In fact few items are specials but have the same look than other standard items, there's less than in Avernum but still few. Players using the junk bag to sell stuff could have lost few special items. Well very few, and you probably would not have use them. I use one of them but it's one a bit questionable.

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