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A:EftP - Too hard


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I never thought I'd say this, but this game is too hard.

 

I've played half a dozen Spiderweb titles and generally found them too easy. I figured this'd be the same, so I started on "Hard" difficulty.

 

Well, that was pretty close to impossible - after 15 or 20 hours of play, I was stuck, so I turned the difficulty down.

 

But it's still frustratingly hard - I can never make it through an entire mission, I have to do part of a mission, run away, search for another mission that won't kill me, do part of that, run away, do part of another, go back to the end of the first mission, get killed, look for another that I can manage.

 

I've never quit a game before, but I'm close to it with this one.

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This is probably the hardest difficulty demo in a Spiderweb Game especially if you play it like the earlier versions. You can complete the entire demo area and reach level 8, but to do so you have to leave and return from some areas before doing the boss fight of the dungeon.

 

I recommend raising your party by doing the easy delivery and collection quests and returning at a higher level. Also for torment difficulty it helps to be 2 or 3 levels higher than a normal difficulty party.

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Oh sorry - I'm quite a way beyond that, but thank you for the tips.

 

It's not that I'm not making progress, I am - it's just incredibly slow and frustrating: I get the maps of the slith fortress, and then I can't even hit the sliths who ambush me on the way out - let alone defeat them. And with a lot of the missions to defeat enemies on the outside of cities, I get killed before I even get a chance to miss them.

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Casual should not feel humiliating. That's why it's called "casual" and not "easy."

 

Also, take a moment to realize that the world in this game is HUGE and totally open-ended. You can always go just about anywhere. Some areas are easier than others, though.

 

Start with goblins and nephils. Avoid sliths and ogres for a nice long time! Start with the areas around Silvar and Cotra, then move on to Formello and Fort Draco, then Mertis.

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Remember Exile: Escape from the Pit?

I sat on my arse around Silvar until about level 10-15 fighting nephils and goblins and earning enough money to buy bronze broadswords and decent armor and training on everyone before even attempting to move west towards Cotra and fighting sliths.

I assume this is going to be similar in A:EftP. Just keep it at a nice slow pace.

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Yeah, this game is definitely harder than most recent SW titles. Enemy evasion in particular is vicious: against anything higher level than me on hard, I was lucky to get one hit a turn from my whole party. I never thought I'd say this, but I think I prefer doing scratch damage over and over again in A6 to never hitting in A:EftP. Around Mertis/ToM I turned the difficulty down to normal, and I've liked it that way.

 

The difficulty jump isn't a bad thing, if anything I imagine it will give the game more replay value, but it is jarring. I wouldn't quite say that hard in this game is as difficult as torment in Avadon or A6, but it's close. Likewise, normal is a bit easier than hard (my default difficulty setting) in Avadon or A6.

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I don't think the game is actually more difficult, but -- for all the clamor about building a system where it's impossible to make a crappy character -- it is in some ways EASIER to make a crappy character.

 

In particular, you NEED to invest the majority of your attribute points in a single stat and use that stat to attack with. Either invest mostly in Strength and do melee, or Dexterity and do bows, or Intelligence and do spells. This is because the basic stats like Melee Weapons and Bows now contribute +1% to-hit instead of +5% to-hit.

 

It's no longer the case that you automatically hit everything with a focused investment in a particular attack type; you NEED the stats. This is especially true early on.

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Isn't armoring also changed? I remember I could focus on Strength for fighter characters and rush to better armoring. Now I feel the rush on better armoring is more rude because there's a heavy to hit penalties.

 

For now I'm playing hard and feel the game has just a good difficulty. I just had multiple time to give up continue a quest started and find some more easy to come back when stronger/better equipped. But I don't feel it different than in old Avernum.

 

One point bother me, it's I remember you could hire some NPC to replace some companions in you party and that was a good way to tune down the difficulty for first parts. But I haven't find any of those companions yet. Is that was in another game? Or they have been removed? Of they are still here but I just haven't find some yet?

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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
They are probably removed. That was a feature of all the Nethergate engine games (including A1-3) but has not been in any of the newer engine games.


Too bad, it was objectively a very minor feature but there was few points for it. First for newbies it was a nice way to low down a bit the difficulty during first parts. Still for newbies it was a cool way to see some example of characters already developed with few levels. Still not a very good mechanism because you started with a full party and had to give up one of party member to hire a companion.

In Avadon 6 I quoted in first parts a companion follower, it was a modest approach but really a feature I regret and that had some other old games. A companion added to party but not part of it, a companion that join and leave for a specific duration or goal, a companion with few comments and little talks. For sure it's not the major shift of companions in Avadon but those are different companions, party companions. Party followers are quite different companions.

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Hey! Everyone who complains when I make a game linear so that people are forced to spend a while in lower level areas before they can proceed to tougher areas! READ THIS THREAD!!!!!

 

Wow. It's almost as if there are reasons to do things the way I do them. Weird, that.

 

Anyway. Avernum is a very open-ended game (like, say, Skyrim). If you charge straight into tough areas without spending time in the lower level areas, you will be slaughtered. If you are totally getting killed somewhere, go somewhere else.

 

And, without more specific information about where people are running into trouble, there isn't much I can do. If you say "The game is too tough and bosses are killing me," that actually tells me almost nothing about your problem. What level are you? What are you fighting? Do you have potions? Are you using them?

 

If you are finding yourself totally overmatched, you can e-mail me a saved game (support@spiderwebsoftware.com) I can look at to see what is going on. I am interested, and the data I can get from that will be very useful. It might result in changes in future versions. But I can't make sweeping changes to something as important as balance without hard data.

 

Similarly, if you are finding you are facing foes and you have a very very low chance of hitting, send a saved game. This is probably a bug. Hit chances were intended to never get very low. I will fix this if I can get some data from the field.

 

- Jeff Vogel

 

Edit: It is also possible that I made the experience from killing monsters too low, so you aren't gaining levels as fast as you should. I'll consider this for v1.0.1. However, I'm not going to do anything until I can play with a few saved games and figure out exactly what the problem is. If there's a glitch in calculating to-hit probabilities that makes change of hitting enemies too low, giving you more experience won't solve that.

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Lol, I was thinking of this "difficulty vs open problem" when reading the thread: <Can't decide where I'm supposed to be>. That other thread turned a bit to transform a very open game into a more or less linear game.

 

Beside bugs that can happen, fights difficulty or challenges linked to some skills level, are a major problem with highly non linear RPG. Most games end manage it through a tempered scaling system and Skyrim have done this choice, but also Baldur's Gate 2 had a complex scaling system, Dragon Age Origin too. In current PC RPG gaming population you'll get on forums a very vocal and not that small minority of players that will bash any mention to difficulty scaling.

 

An important part of this reject of scaling is probably coming from the awful scaling system implemented in Oblivion plus the extreme popularity of Oblivion among PC players (most coming from consoles or also playing on consoles). But I think Skyrim will help tune down a lot the systematic complaint against difficulty scaling.

 

Myself I'm a partisan of difficulty scaling, it just need to be rather more complicated than just a basic systematic linear scaling.

 

When I played Avernum 1 some time ago (4 years, it was probably at release of Avernum 5) I have been quite fascinated by how open it was and how the quests was organized and the feeling of adventure it was building very well. I honestly didn't find back this in any Avernum. But I played most of them in part only (2&6, 5 almost finished) and I never played Avernum 3&4. Yeah, yeah Avernum 1 and Avadon are the only one I ever finished, ha well I haven't finished yet Skyrim that I consider great.

 

In my opinion Avernum 1 is using series of difficulty webs and I feel the remake is keeping that. You don't have strict difficulty level for an area but a mix of easier and harder quests, and harder quests of this area are harder than easier quests of close area. So as soon as you take care to pick the easiest quests you have a very large open area available for exploration but there's many quest in this large area that are totally impossible to do.

 

One hint for the player are the more or less random fights done in the scale travel, they tend be easy and pinpoint the difficulty of the easiest quests of the area protected by that encounters.

 

Such setup will involve a lot of quests failure to let the player find the quests with the right difficulty for its current level.

 

But is this organization can match a more large public which is more used to games that are linear or that are using a difficulty scaling system? Probably not.

 

Some games used colors trick, blue is easy, green normal, yellow a bit hard, orange difficult, red impossible. That's fine but using such system and color quests could feel a lot too much dumbed down system.

 

Some games just used protectors, even if area are open, reach a tougher area will require to pass though a limited number of well disguised doors where you won't be able to skip a rather tough fight that is setting up a hint for the difficulty level after this door.

 

But the problem of very open RPG and difficulty level isn't only the too difficult fights, but it's also the too easy fights. The second problem will trigger a lot less complain but it can generate a not that good feeling. It typically happen when managing a series a very rude fights because not really for the current party level but quite higher. Then this gives a big boost to the party strength that will end in generating plenty other fights a lot too easy.

 

To manage that without a scaling system not many games did. Gothic series used the trick of very controlled difficulty level by providing armor upgrades only on precise story events, and those armors was a huge difficulty change.

 

EDIT: More XP through fights, so faster level up seems like a bad idea to me. Many players will exploit it to skip many stuff and make a Hardcore rush. Not sure they'll complain less if they already does with current version, they'll just face impossible barriers later. Also such setup is to push to grinding and I hate grinding.

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Originally Posted By: Vent

One point bother me, it's I remember you could hire some NPC to replace some companions in you party and that was a good way to tune down the difficulty for first parts. But I haven't find any of those companions yet. Is that was in another game? Or they have been removed? Of they are still here but I just haven't find some yet?


I've found one person so far that looked like you could add him but he changes his mind when he looks at our battle scars. I think it was the youth in Silvar who helps the boat builder or it was in Cotra. I haven't seen anyway to leave a character behind to leave space for finding someone to ask. Looks like that part of the game is gone too. Sigh.
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Originally Posted By: Spidweb
Hey! Everyone who complains when I make a game linear so that people are forced to spend a while in lower level areas before they can proceed to tougher areas! READ THIS THREAD!!!!!

As you have observed in the past, Jeff, people are going to find something to complain about no matter what you do. Who cares! The games will be good whichever way you decide to do it.

The low hit chances I think are a combination of 4 things:
1) People are used to having constant 95% hit chance in other SW games just from investing in melee weapons or whatever, and don't realize they need Str/Dex/Int (and not layer on tons of encumbering armor) to make that happen now
2) People are confused by the tooltip and think they need to invest in Dex to help their melee hit rate, which it doesn't boost
3) Everybody wants to dual-wield. Dual-wielding is VERY strong and usually worth it, but it does incur that hit chance penalty at the start of the game
4) People wander a bit and run into extra-strong monsters, and then their hit rate drops from 60-70% down to 10-20%.

I know that you are concerned with making it difficult to create an "unplayable" character. Unfortunately, because the skill system now relies almost exclusively on Str/Dex/Int for hit rate, it is quite possible to make a character with very bad aim, if you spread your stat points around rather than focusing on one stat.
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Pretty much if you're not easily wiping out goblins, don't take on large groups of nephil. If you're not easily wiping out nephil, don't take on large groups of nephar, etc. The game isn't that hard, and for the most part tips in the game do warn you that a situation may be more difficult than you're prepared for--if you bother to read those tips. I remember deciding to see early on if the group of nephar in front of the fort were really that tough. Good thing I'd saved before the fight because my warrior was dead before he ever got to act, and the rest went down in two more turns.

 

Lesson learned, I wasn't ready for that fight yet. Off I went to level up some more.

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Yep, what Slarty said.

 

The combat system is somewhat different from what I expect from SW games and party builds require a new approach. After the Bloodsucker fight in the Crypt, I decided to restart the game using the help provided in the threads (thx heaps!) rather than play catch up with a weaker party.

 

Jeff's explanation above gives a clearer indication on how I should approach the game in terms of exploration and party structure i.e. don't waste time on being knuckled repeatedly by the same boss and specialise my troops a bit more than I'm used to.

 

btw the effectiveness of Daze is awesome - saves my guys lots of pain!!

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Originally Posted By: waterplant
btw the effectiveness of Daze is awesome - saves my guys lots of pain!!


Seconded. A really nice feature is how it sometimes inflicts poison or even acid on more powerful foes who resist the daze effect. This way you don't feel like it's a waste of the mage's turn. Lesson learned from Avadon?
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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
In particular, you NEED to invest the majority of your attribute points in a single stat and use that stat to attack with. Either invest mostly in Strength and do melee, or Dexterity and do bows, or Intelligence and do spells.


This is useful to know. One question I have, how much Endurance do we need to buy in this game? Any recommendations?

Originally Posted By: Spidweb
Hey! Everyone who complains when I make a game linear so that people are forced to spend a while in lower level areas before they can proceed to tougher areas! READ THIS THREAD!!!!!

Wow. It's almost as if there are reasons to do things the way I do them. Weird, that.


This is fair, although I think it's also fair for the more experienced gamers to ask for there to be an option to switch off the 'fence' between zones. It could be turned on by default for teh newbies.
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Originally Posted By: Micawber

Originally Posted By: Spidweb
Hey! Everyone who complains when I make a game linear so that people are forced to spend a while in lower level areas before they can proceed to tougher areas! READ THIS THREAD!!!!!

Wow. It's almost as if there are reasons to do things the way I do them. Weird, that.


This is fair, although I think it's also fair for the more experienced gamers to ask for there to be an option to switch off the 'fence' between zones. It could be turned on by default for teh newbies.


The difficulty in Avernum isn't managed just by simple zone well delimited so those optional barriers are a false solution.

An option to show or not quests colors showing a difficulty level could perhaps help. Also the come back of the "look at" command plus an option to show to the player a difficulty level information if it's a wandering group or an enemy.
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Yeah, this seems like the game where Jeff drives away the masses of new players he picked up with Avedon. It's funny that, after all the blog posts about how games are too hard and how as a designer you need to make your game easier than you think it should be and then go back and make go back again and make it even easier than that, he then goes and makes his hardest game in half a decade.

 

I wouldn't say that the problem is that it's too hard per se (although, following the design logic Jeff espouses on his blog, it is). My issue is that every Spiderweb game has the same five difficulty levels with the same descriptions, they really have completely different meanings from game to game. Of the last five Spiderweb games I've played, I'd say A4 Normal = A5 Easy = A6 Normal = Av Hard = A:EtP Easy. The result is that, unless you're an "always play Torment" or "always play Casual" player, you never know what setting you should be playing at when you start. As a long-time fan, I'm kind of prepared for that. But the huge jump in difficulty between Avedon and A:EtP, combined with the fact that there are a ton of new customers who have only ever played Avedon, just does not seem like a good business decision.

 

The one actual complaint I have is that, if the tool tip about Dex improving melee to-high is untrue, that really needs to be fixed. I threw a ton of points into Dex for my melee fighters after noticing they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Which I'm sure now explains why they still can't hit the broad side of a barn. Thanks, tool tips!

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It's not logical to complain about the difficulty change from game to game when all of those games allow you at any time to change the difficulty setting, and have played first a higher difficulty then switch to a lower will hardly be a penalty.

 

For those supposed "numerous" blogs complaining AETP is too hard, a series of quotes should justify it, a Google search didn't gave me much results, none in fact.

 

In game stats I have already 44 characters death, my party is level 6. I pickup hard yep a bit because I switch to Hard in Avadon but more because I already play the previous version of Avernum and wanted the extra challenge for a sort of distant replay.

 

So for now Hard is quite Hard but it's a real plus once I admit it's Hard. I never felt fights in Avernum series a big fun, cool and fun enough but not great, their comparison with fights in some RealmZ scenario make them pale. But replaying Avernum through this remake and at a Hard difficulty is very fun. It push me dig more everything, exploit more the terrain, never forget use special attacks, put a lot of care in spells use, take care of placements and replacements, sometimes use maneuvering to reposition, use items when its clearly a special fight/enemy, and more.

 

I agree that if there's a thing to fix it's the DEX tooltip error that probably lead and will lead some players to wrong choices. Myself I quoted it in those forums soon enough and can't complain, anyway my second fighter use bow quite often and his dex isn't a bad point, for now.

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I was a beta tester for Avernum, my first time beta testing but long time Spiderweb Games fan. I'm also a person who always plays on normal and reading forum comments like "I always play on torment" tend to intimidate me and make me think I'm a wuss. :-) Just setting the stage for my response to this "game is too hard" comment.

 

Anyway, there were a few places early on that I thought were quite difficult, however given the game is open and I know the normal Spiderweb strategy is to go somewhere else and get stronger and then come back, this is how I handled it. I had to get quite a bit stronger before I could beat the nepharim and nephilim, and I wasn't able to clear out the bat cave until about half way through the game. I didn't have a clear complaint to report to Jeff, and what I posted above makes me think I don't have the ability to properly evaluate battle balances. So I didn't comment on this during the beta. The only problem it caused me was that I was perhaps a bit slow and *just* made it through the whole game by the time the beta period ended. But I did get through it all without using cheat codes, and my overall impression of beta testing the game was "Damn, that was fun!"

 

Also, I did feel that about mid-game things got a bit easier. It was just the approximate demo area that was very slow for me because I had to roam and get stronger. The game is open people, go have fun with it!

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Originally Posted By: Vent
For those supposed "numerous" blogs complaining AETP is too hard, a series of quotes should justify it, a Google search didn't gave me much results, none in fact.

I think you are misunderstanding Fael's post. Fael was referring to blog posts written by Jeff (aka Spiderweb Software) where he discussed his new goal of making games easier than he thinks they should be.
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Originally Posted By: Vent
The difficulty in Avernum isn't managed just by simple zone well delimited so those optional barriers are a false solution.


You misunderstand - I like the open format of Avernum 1/2/3 and would hate that to change. I don't think Jeff plans to make that magnitude of changes to the legacy games. But the newer games do have the barriers, which a lot of us dislike, and it would be great if they were optional.

Edit: Obviously, Avernum 2 literally does have barriers in Chapter 1; however Chapter 4 is completely open and that's by far the biggest part of the game.
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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
Originally Posted By: Vent
For those supposed "numerous" blogs complaining AETP is too hard, a series of quotes should justify it, a Google search didn't gave me much results, none in fact.

I think you are misunderstanding Fael's post. Fael was referring to blog posts written by Jeff (aka Spiderweb Software) where he discussed his new goal of making games easier than he thinks they should be.


Oops I apologize! I remember one or two posts I read about dumbing down target but haven't seen those specifically about lower difficulty.

I made few quick tests, quick is an important word lol, to try on some tough battles switch from Hard to Normal. I hardly noticed any difference (more damages done?). Is really the game changes the difficulty on the fly? I wonder if the problem isn't specifically with the Normal difficulty.

So the case if clear, jetcitywoman was responsible for testing Normal and is culprit for all the troubles. So it's clear all refund requests should be send to jetcitywoman.
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How do you propose making barriers optional? Are you thinking of Avadon where you can't go places without a quest, or Geneforge, where the map is just divided into zones. I for one really like Geneforge's zone system, as it allows for blocking off of certain areas but never prohibits me from traveling somewhere.

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First let's clarify what we are talking about. Avernum 4 is the best example because it shares the same world as Avernum 1 (or A:EFTP). Avernum 4 forces linearity by erecting various obstacles that confine you to a particular region until you are "ready" to move on. E.g. you can't leave Formello region until you get permission, you can't get past the Silvar bridge until you are given permission, etc. There's even a bridge that's initially broken to keep you trapped, but supposedly get repaired later. It was the same in Avernums 5 & 6, and Geneforge 3, 4 & 5. Whereas in Avernum 1, 2 (chapter 4) & 3, and Geneforge 1 & 2, you could go pretty much anywhere you wanted the only real limit being survivability.

 

Therefore this is what I have suggested: given the "barriers" in discussion are nothing more than SDF checks at certain gates/bridges, it would be straight forward to program in an addition override that allows you through if a "don't fence me in" game option was set. Of course, in order for this to not break the game, the plot would have to be written with a bit less linearity. Which is what a lot of us would prefer, in fact.

 

Jeff rightly points out that he doesn't want to lose customers by making it too easy to die in his games by accidentally wandering in to the wrong area. I am just trying to suggest a way this could be done without forcing a 100% linear plot.

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Jeff did make the game easier than what he had tested for the earliest beta testers. The best example was that in the Bat Cave, the smoldering bats after the rats were originally lava bats that could barely be hit by a demo level party. There were some other fights that got toned down for normal difficulty.

 

Overall this is the hardest Avernum version since this is the first time your beginning characters can't hit everything. But with the open end world you can go elsewhere and return to fight again.

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Mmm well Lava bats are just one step further, it's not such a huge change lol. Also in original Avernum there was also Lava bats if I remember well and that cave was tough too. I noticed I have more than 1000 saves of it, if it's not my all time record, it's close lol.

 

About dividing Avernum in squares, it's not possible and I already explained why, because its structure is a series of webs with large juxtapositions.

 

And about structures, the two scale approach like in this Avernum remake totally rules for implementing open worlds, for me it's the best.

 

To help players about difficulty management in open world, colored quests and monsters to hint their difficulty level and have it optional for hardcore players, would probably be a fairly good solution to replace separate optional squares that are a too restrictive approach of open world.

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I've been kind of following this discussion, but the honest truth is this. I have not been getting e-mail complaints about difficulty. At all. The only inkling I have had that this game is hard is a few in this thread, and two of them has already mentioned that they played on Hard.

 

(I tend to automatically tune out, for my own sanity, any bug report that reads, "The game on Hard difficulty is Hard!")

 

So I'm reading a lot of theory and vagueness, but anyone who really wants to see changes in the game needs to send a saved game with an explanation like "I have only a 5% chance to hit these enemies," or "This encounter has completely blocked me in the game and it's too hard for my level." Then I can make changes.

 

- Jeff Vogel

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I just replayed the Thexa Bloodsucker fight in the crypt and found I had 40% to hit for melee fully buffed - which I guess isn't so bad. I still couldn't beat him/her tho'...

 

Previous Avernum games I could beat anything on normal - once I figured out the nuance of the encounter - and rarely needed to use potions to get through. New ball-game here (& I embrace the challenge).

 

 

 

Originally Posted By: Vent
Perhaps the game difficulty at Normal is a bit too close to difficulty at Hard?

 

But for Hard difficulty setup the game is Hard, woo that's not usual and that's cool!

 

And also the wrong tooltip about DEX really need a fix.

 

 

Similar to how fast food chains list their small sizes as 'medium' or 'large' use grander language for larger portions, perhaps the difficulty could be: normal, advanced, hard, torment. I would be stoked if I thought I was getting through on 'advanced' level. There's nothing casual about being a Hero of Avernum!!!

 

 

Btw: could someone post how to email a saved game to Jeff pls? I don't know how to do such things on a Mac. It must be annoying for him to read comments without being able to determine if the game itself it at fault.

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Originally Posted By: waterplant
Btw: could someone post how to email a saved game to Jeff pls? I don't know how to do such things on a Mac. It must be annoying for him to read comments without being able to determine if the game itself it at fault.

To send a saved game go into the saved games folder and compress the save that you want to send (use right click to get the list of options or click the folder to highlight it and then use the File from the tool bar in Finder to get the compress option). Then send it as an attachment to your email.
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