A:EftP - First thoughts? (not all that spoilerific)

[Cala]

Seems pretty cool so far. I had to take a break and register after only an hour or so because I wanted to

 

Click to reveal..

go in the boats! Haha

 

At any rate, having only finished Avadon and started on Geneforge 1, there's a few things that stuck out at me.

 

The first is how NPCs do not seem to move if you do not, even when out of combat mode. Certainly different than what I'm used to, and I found it a bit odd pacing back and forth so Owen Wilson's twin brother, Andrew (Seriously just look at his picture! I did a double-take), could approach to greet me, like the dialogue said. Not sure how I feel about this, as I kind of liked how you could be attacked while sitting around out of combat mode in the other games, if in an uncleared area. Certainly kept me on the edge in Geneforge, and I liked how the patrols in Dhorl's Stead worked in Avadon.

 

Secondly I think there may be an error with the junk bag... pretty sure I tried to put a stack of 2 iron bars or something in it, and only had one after doing so. Haven't had a stack of items since, so looking to see if anyone else has noticed.

 

I think I'll have to play more to form an opinion on the new way of navigating between cities.

 

Well, that's about all I've got right now, hope everyone else is having as much fun exploring as I am!

[Randomizer]

Items in the junk bag don't have numbers associated with them. If you remove them from the junk bag the number should be seen again.

[Jerakeen]

Is it a bug that the doors won't close? Or Jeff's attempt to prevent the abuse of Door-Fu?

 

Edit: I guess Jeff got tired of all the whining about the invisibly small secret door switches. Very funny.

[Randomizer]

Jeff decided that doors don't close so the game will work better on iPads.

 

I miss being able to loot in privacy without the owners barging in and interrupting.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Jeff decided that doors don't close so the game will work better on iPads.

I miss being able to loot in privacy without the owners barging in and interrupting.

doors don't work on iPads???

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Jeff decided that doors don't close so the game will work better on iPads.

I miss being able to loot in privacy without the owners barging in and interrupting.

I suppose this is funny, but I always make a point of closing doors in games. It just seems like what someone would do when they leave a shop or whatever. I will feel rude through this new game.

[Cala]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

I suppose this is funny, but I always make a point of closing doors in games. It just seems like what someone would do when they leave a shop or whatever. I will feel rude through this new game.

I feel the same way!

[Clocknova]

Why would that make things work better on iPads? If One can open the door on an iPad, why not close it as well?

[Jerakeen]

I'm guessing the problem is more that it's too easy to close doors when you don't want to. Touch screen controls can be tricky.

[Clocknova]

I'm pretty amazed at how much bigger the EftP download is than the Avernum 6 download. This game must be bigger than I thought, or there's just a lot more artwork and sound effects.

 

I really hope that Jeff takes these remakes all the way through Avernum 5. 6 will probably be fine for a while, but even a minor retooling and a rerelease so that it matches the rest would be pretty cool.

 

It's been so long since I've played Avernum (or Exile) that it really feels like a new game to me again. This is great.

[dwimordene]

Originally Posted By: Clocknova

It's been so long since I've played Avernum (or Exile) that it really feels like a new game to me again. This is great.

Agreed! I'm having a blast. I forgot how deadly the Bat Cave is to me. Lots of fun saving and reloading :-)

I'd love to see a remake of, at least, 2 - 5. Avernum is such a great series it has quite a bit of replay value.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Clocknova

I'm pretty amazed at how much bigger the EftP download is than the Avernum 6 download. This game must be bigger than I thought, or there's just a lot more artwork and sound effects.

It's mostly new artwork and graphics, but there are new dungeon sections too.

[madrigan]

My first thoughts are that the Nephilim have pet cats, which is funny and also quite odd, and also that the dialogue in Formello about the proper name for a group of worms is very, very funny.

[Walker White]

At first I was surprised that the party was all human, but then I remembered that did not start until Avernum/Exile 2.

 

Does anyone else expect the Batman scene change music to play whenever the peace sign flashes across the screen? Or is that just me?

[Cala]

I find I'm dying fairly frequently while creeping about in enemy areas, like when I open a door and the room is packed and has a 'boss' in it. Though I save a lot, the frequent autosave is an absolute godsend. Brilliant idea!

[arkhaine]

I only played for ten minutes or so (probably going to hold out for Steam or, goodness me, a Humble Bundle, or just Christmas holidays if I am impatient), but:

 

I find it very annoying that I can press "i" to open the inventory, but can't press "i" again to close it, and instead have to use my mouse. A minor annoyance, but there it is.

 

Otherwise, I can't wait to play it and fully support remakes of these games (an old Exile stalwart here)

[Randomizer]

Use "esc" to close the inventory and most windows.

[madrigan]

I'd like it if the game would warn me when I try to use a Battle Discipline not suitable for the weapon I'm holding.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

I'd like it if the game would warn me when I try to use a Battle Discipline not suitable for the weapon I'm holding.

It uses the default weapon for the battle discipline which is really irritating when it's an archer suddenly moved into melee.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Originally Posted By: madrigan

I'd like it if the game would warn me when I try to use a Battle Discipline not suitable for the weapon I'm holding.

It uses the default weapon for the battle discipline which is really irritating when it's an archer suddenly moved into melee.

Exactly. I couldn't figure out why my archer kept running towards the enemy. I was composing an email to support -- because the forum was down -- when I suddenly realized what the problem was.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Originally Posted By: madrigan

I'd like it if the game would warn me when I try to use a Battle Discipline not suitable for the weapon I'm holding.

It uses the default weapon for the battle discipline which is really irritating when it's an archer suddenly moved into melee.

Exactly. I couldn't figure out why my archer kept running towards the enemy. I was composing an email to support -- because the forum was down -- when I suddenly realized what the problem was.

Also, why can't I set the default attack to magic for my priest or Mage?

And, on initial thoughts, being expelled from the portal to some boring cavern under Fort Avernum was not all that great a change for Jeff to make. Does he really need these tutorial sections; I mean, the tutorials aren't even that informative.

[Soul of Wit]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Use "esc" to close the inventory and most windows.

The Enter/Return keys also will close most windows.

[Walker White]

Originally Posted By: Soul of Wit

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Use "esc" to close the inventory and most windows.

The Enter/Return keys also will close most windows.

Most, but not all. None of the event triggered dialogs (the ones with just 1. OK) do this. Which is a change from previous Spiderweb games, and really annoying.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

And, on initial thoughts, being expelled from the portal to some boring cavern under Fort Avernum was not all that great a change for Jeff to make. Does he really need these tutorial sections; I mean, the tutorials aren't even that informative.

Yeah, I was a bit dubious on this as well. It seems like the game is grooming Lagran to be a major antagonist. I'll reserve judgment on that 'til I see how it's handled.

Also: Let him that hath understanding count the number of my post count: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

[Vent]

My first thoughts, in fact my very first thoughts, it can't be more first because I just finished download it. Avernum is my favorite of all I played, and it's thrilling to anticipate discover how it feels in this remake.

 

Good start.

 

EDIT: OMG there's two scales! I didn't expected it even if it was hard to imagine how it could be ported with a one scale system. Very good, now I suppose there will be only two scales and not three, but two scales is already a quite different approach. I quote the larger scale is quite more closer but the closer scale is also a closer view.

 

EDIT2: A slight disappointment is that there's only one class, and only specialization in skills will build a class. But also that means that overall there's less choice. If I remember well Avadon had 4 classes even if some skills was shared between different classes. That said it's just a slight disappointment, original Avernum had also only one class, and stuff like special attacks are a good change to compensate less skills. And if like Avadon many skills provide special capacities at different levels that's also for me a good replacement of some other stuff.

[Actaeon]

Originally Posted By: Cala

I find I'm dying fairly frequently while creeping about in enemy areas, like when I open a door and the room is packed and has a 'boss' in it. Though I save a lot, the frequent autosave is an absolute godsend. Brilliant idea!

There are some mild cheat codes that might help with that, depending on how you feel about such things (and whether you got the hint book).

[Randomizer]

Also when you open the door to a room full of monsters, there isn't a need to rush inside and die. Just stand around the outside by the door and let them come to you to die. All it takes is one weak monster forming a bottleneck at the door and you can attack past him with spells and ranged attacks.

[*i]

Quote:

A slight disappointment is that there's only one class, and only specialization in skills will build a class. But also that means that overall there's less choice. If I remember well Avadon had 4 classes even if some skills was shared between different classes. That said it's just a slight disappointment, original Avernum had also only one class, and stuff like special attacks are a good change to compensate less skills. And if like Avadon many skills provide special capacities at different levels that's also for me a good replacement of some other stuff.

I suppose you could argue that there is less choice because the number of skills is reduced. I would argue you have greater flexibility in how you develop your characters throughout the game, unlike in Avadon where your choice of class dictated the role of that character.

[Jerakeen]

I think this skill system is a huge improvement over Avadon. Way more flexible, for the simple reason that high-tier skills can be raised as much as the highest skill below instead of the lowest, therefore giving you a real choice in which path to take. And flat skill cost means you can make meaningful upgrades right through the game, which is an improvement over the old Avernum system.

 

I also love the fact that warriors in particular can get access to cool abilities pretty much immediately. The last two Avernums did much to make fighters more interesting, with battle disciplines; A:EftP goes farther yet, by incorporating some Avadon-style abilities directly into the skill tree.

 

Gone are the days of boring hack and plink while waiting for the mage to blast everything to oblivion. So far, at least.

 

Oh, and I love the new character graphics, the old line drawings, and item descriptions! Awesome; thank you, Jeff!

[Slawbug]

I agree that the mechanic of not having to fill up every skill, is better than Avadon's... but I think that system, altogether, was far more interesting in Avadon.

 

The AEFTP system guarantees that every mage I make is going to be pretty much the same. I can shift around some of the secondary skills, whether I focus more on resistance or magicial efficiency, or maybe go for hardiness and some battle disciplines. But the vast majority of his skill set -- the spells -- is going to be exactly the same no matter what I do, and due to the 4-primary-abilities system, I can't effectively give him non-magical attacks. Likewise for priests.

 

It's true that in Avadon the center column was strongest and so all builds tended to gravitate there. But there was still room to expand in different ways, and on Normal you _could_ ignore that column. You could make a ranged shadowwalker, a melee shadowwalker, a backstab shadowwalker, a telportation ninja shadowwalker... the shaman could be built to blast Int-based scarab attacks, or Dex-based attacks high in her tree, or go for good summons or spine shield. Between those sorts of options and the pick 3 characters system, Avadon felt quite varied to me -- the most varied of any game since Nethergate, really. Now in AEFTP I feel like there is zero variety; my options are pretty much mage, priest, warrior (who can focus more on defense or offense at the start but will end up the same either way), or sub-par archer.

[malvo]

Just wanted to add one first impression:

 

It is really fun to be doing this all again, but with more shiny. Very, very fun.

 

And two gripes, however minor:

 

I can shut chests and cabinets but not doors? Why does that make sense? Closing the door + swiping everything in sight: I miss thee.

 

Ranged spells cast on far away enemies now often make my spellcasters run forward *without permission*, and thus spoiling the hide them behind the fighters move. I'm sure I'll get used to micromanaging this, but until then it's annoying. Why not just give an 'out of range' message in all such situations?

[Slawbug]

That is a really good point. For both spells and bows, a positive cursor may mean one of two things:

 

1) If you click, you will cast the spell / shoot the target from where you are.

 

2) If you click, you will run forward several spaces more than necessary to be in range, THEN if you have AP left you will cast/shoot. Alternately, if there are PCs in the way and the pathfinding algorithm is feeling punchy, you may run away from battle in an attempt to go through multiple chambers and come out on the other side.

 

It would be really nice to either distinguish the cursors for these, or just stop #2 from happening entirely.

[Walker White]

This new pathing algorithm is giving me fits. I cannot tell you the number of times that I have clicked to go somewhere, a town is "in the way", and I get sucked into the town. I have had that happen even when I am trying to leave said town.

 

Also, I am not a fan of the forced mouse interactions. Why can I walk into some containers to have them open, but others must be clicked on?

[Jerakeen]

It can also be impossible to tell if you have line-of-sight for a ranged attack, which can lead to Wandering Mage Syndrome.

 

And I agree, accidentally entering towns is weird and annoying. I guess we have to expect a few quirks in this marriage of old and new.

[Tcheedchee]

I guess it's the artwork, that makes the download so much longer, cause it's really aaaaawwwwwsome!

That doesn't mean, I don't like the retro style of the older games, but it's just stunning.

Actually I really do hope, that I'm wrong with my guess. I love the length of the games.

I also do hope that some of the changes discussed above are bugs of the first hours, and will be changed. I don't get why Jeff should concede to so many adaptions to the worse for the ipad. It really spoils the fun. I love Door-Fu, and I also feel quite indiscrete if I can't steal items in privacy.

 

But the graphics!?! I'm stunned!

[Walker White]

Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves

And I agree, accidentally entering towns is weird and annoying. I guess we have to expect a few quirks in this marriage of old and new.

In this case, I don't understand why. This is A* algorithm 101.

[Californian]

Oh man I wish I could close the doors! I suppose we can use quicksave to steal stuff. Maybe we'll get away with it. That's where a huge amount of my cash has always come from!

 

However, I stole an energy potion and was seen! But nothing happened. Nobody attacked me.

 

Do we lose something when we're caught stealing?

[Randomizer]

Each town has a limit on how much you can steal and be seen before they go hostile. Some places like the Castle have an autokill node that send you to your death without a fight.

 

If you are really patient you can steal enough. An easier way to make money is gather healing herbs and selling off the extras that you don't use for potions.

[Colonel Haste]

My first impression is pretty severe disappointment in balance. Not right at the beginning, but I'm now at the Slith island which is a quest from Cotra so I believe it is still part of the demo. (Since I paid I'm not sure).

 

I have completed all other quests that seem possible to have completed and have been to Fort Dranlon and bought better spells. I have read Randomizer's advice on how not to suck. And my two melee fighters have about a 10% chance to hit the Slith warriors that I face right when I walk in the room. I die. I try again, buffing more in advance. Almost die again and run away. Come to the forums to see what I'm doing wrong, am I the only one going through this?

 

I'm sure I'll get through the fight soon enough but it's pretty frustrating just swinging and missing, swinging and missing, swinging and missing. I'm playing on Normal and am an SWEB vet. In retrospect I probably put too much into arcane lore and cave lore (roughly four or five each) but even if I had put it towards melee I'm thinking it would only be a few percentage higher to hit. Maybe I need to remove some armor? Or is this just the way it goes and I need to move to Casual if I don't like it?

 

TL;DR: Why can't I hit Sliths when I seemingly am at the stage when I'm supposed to be fighting them?

[Slawbug]

You aren't "supposed" to be fighting them. Of course, the world is open and you can go where you like, but there are generally easier battles in the northeast (Formello & Fort Draco) and some of the southeast (Mertis). I found even the Nephar fort to be better left till after some of those other areas.

 

Also, yes, hit rate finally matters in this game, unlike all previous SW games. This means that you can't ignore the to-hit penalty on armor for your tank, as you are probably accustomed to doing. It also means that investing in Strength (NOT Dexterity -- the tooltip is wrong AGAIN) for melee fighters is important.

[Cala]

I've been doing similar... getting my butt kicked on one mission, so just wandering off to do another... there's just so much do to, I've never played such a non-linear game. I've been in the Nephar fort 3 times now, levelling between each, and still have things to do there. Even just wander around a little - there are all kinds of random things to find that are unrelated to city quests.

 

A little stuck now though, but I haven't been to Mertis so I'll give that a shot. ^^

[Alorael at Large]

Before fighting sliths, exactly which quests have you done? Have you done everything for Silvar? Fort Duvno? Mertis? Most Formello quests are easier than sliths, and there are some low-hanging quest fruit as far away as the Great Cave to the southwest.

 

The real moral of Avernum is that with great freedom comes great responsibility for not dying. If you're dying a lot, go somewhere else where you die less and come back later. If you don't have quests for it, go somewhere and find more quests! It's only when you're out of places that you haven't gone and you have no places to get experience without dying that you're in serious trouble.

 

—Alorael, who will also admit to leaning a little hard on magic as a damage source. It's not optimal, but it's okay for your line fighters to be pretty ineffectual as long as they soak enough hits that your casters can fry all opposition.

[Randomizer]

Sliths are definitely harder to fight than Nephils so it's better to head north and do some easy quests from Formello to build up before using a boat. However if you already have the boat, then wander along the rivers to find the caches some of which you should be able to loot.

 

The Underground Fort north of Cotra is meant to scare players and remind them that you can get killed. I found that it was doable if you let your fighters act as meat shields and let you mage and priest do the damaging spells. I had a fighter with less than 30% to hit chance because he had so many penalty pieces of armor, but he was a great shield plugging up the doorways with a shielding potion.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

It also means that investing in Strength (NOT Dexterity -- the tooltip is wrong AGAIN) for melee fighters is important.

Wait. Do you mean that to-hit in melee is based on strength and not on dexterity? If so I have wasted a bunch of skill points already.

[Randomizer]

Yes, I checked the first day along with how little, 1%, that a level of melee weapons gives.

 

There is an editor so you can go back and fix you character. But you have to keep track of the points yourself.

[Colonel Haste]

Ok, my mistake. I didn't realize you were supposed to do Formello before finishing the Cotra quests. I haven't been there yet. Thanks for the feedback.

[Jerakeen]

You have to watch for hints, since the game is so open. The mayor of Silvar points you to Formello after you do his quest, if you ask him for advice.

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

It also means that investing in Strength (NOT Dexterity -- the tooltip is wrong AGAIN) for melee fighters is important.

OK, so does anybody know why my level 2* tank, with 6 STR, 4 DEX, 4 Melee, 1 Blademaster, and a total hit penalty of 15% from armor, has a 72% chance to hit a goblin; while my archer, with 4 STR, 7 DEX, 1 Melee, and and total hit penalty of 10%, has an 88% chance of hitting the very same goblin. With her sword. Nobody has any traits that affect to-hit yet, and frankly I'm baffled.

Edit: Oh wait, I forgot about dual-wielding. I'll test a bit more and come back.

*Yes, I've started over several times. That's what I do.

[Slawbug]

Dual-wielding, and also, what weapons are they using? Weapon bonus levels still impact to-hit at 5% a pop, I believe.

[Jerakeen]

Tank has a pair of bronze shortswords, and Archer has a crude shortsword. I gave her a dagger to use in her off hand, which dropped her to-hit to 73% -ouch. Then to even things up, I removed a piece of penalty armor from my tank, which raised her to-hit to 77%, as you would expect. But this is still only 4 points higher than the archer. This seems strange to me, though I've never been one to obsess about game mechanics.

 

It also makes it very clear that dual-wielding is only worthwhile once you have a decent weapon to put in the off hand.