BLACK HALBERD

[Trenton.]

I have been checking this map that was given from a soldier in lorelei, and have gone far up the mountains north of calloc. It looks just like the cave in the map. The town name is "Remote cave" I just wanted to know, is this where I find it?

[Alorael at Large]

Yes.

 

—Alorael, who remembers back when Avernum was brand new and half the questions on the boards where about the Remote Cave in E3. Good luck!

[Trenton.]

I am having trouble with the third puzzle. The stupid pattern thing. I either get attacked by a bunch of basilisks or get stabbed by flying knifes. Where should I start and whats the pattern? The map doesnt seem accurate...

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

if what i'm remembering is correct you have to walk through at least one pillar

[Randomizer]

The map is oriented at an angle to the screen so you have to rotate the map to line up north. Then the steps make sense.

[Trenton.]

I got past and went to the lair of the rakshasa. Now I cant get past the east doors, even with my level fifty mage and unlock they wont budge! Do I need a key or something?

[Trenton.]

Found a way out. Darn doors...

 

I really hate the Rakshasi/Rakshasa, they all suck because they absorb spells and can cast them. The only things that work on them are swords, arrows, and Wound.

 

Darn! forgot to edit! now I have two posts in a row.

[Harehunter]

Now you know why I loved the Null Magic Fields to prevent them from using their magic against you.

[Randomizer]

Avernum is worse since you don't have wound anymore to fight them.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Avernum is worse since you don't have wound anymore to fight them.

Or Antimagic Field, for that matter.

[Trenton.]

So if you come across a rakshasi in avernum your screwed...

[Niemand]

You just use cloud of blades. A good crossbow helps a lot, though.

[Trenton.]

You have wall of blades in avernum? Sweet! However, a good crossbow and a good blessing does wonders to any monster!

[S M Adventurer]

Actually, Cloud of Blades only exists in A2, A3, and BoA.

If you encounter one in A1, melee and missiles are your only options.

 

Some BoA scenario designers actually ban Cloud of Blades in their scenarios because it is ridiculously broken, since the damage scales with level or something like that.

[Micawber]

Can anyone remember, what spell in A1 was replaced by Cloud of Blades in A2/A3?

[Trenton.]

I think it was "Summon Pie" where a number of banana cream pies appeared and slinged themselves at enemies. The amout of whip cream on the pies depended on the level of the user.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: S M Adventurer

Some BoA scenario designers actually ban Cloud of Blades in their scenarios because it is ridiculously broken, since the damage scales with level or something like that.

Only TM did that, and that was because he didn't want the player to be able to beat the scenario without using his ridiculous custom spells. It wound up being a needlessly restrictive choice that reflected poorly on an otherwise excellent scenario.

[Micawber]

Originally Posted By: Trenton the dragon lord

I think it was "Summon Pie" where a number of banana cream pies appeared and slinged themselves at enemies.

But that was a mage spell. Cloud of Blades is a priest spell, so I think it would have replaced a priest spell. There definitely are a couple which disappeared between games, like Divine Bacon Sandwich.

[Harehunter]

Originally Posted By: Micawber

Originally Posted By: Trenton the dragon lord

I think it was "Summon Pie" where a number of banana cream pies appeared and slinged themselves at enemies.

But that was a mage spell. Cloud of Blades is a priest spell, so I think it would have replaced a priest spell. There definitely are a couple which disappeared between games, like Divine Warrior.

I just looked in all my files on this and I can't find Cloud of Blades in the spell lists at all. I keep going around in circles...
Wait...
I think I've just been hit with a Summon Pi spell.

[Metatron]

Originally Posted By: Micawber

Can anyone remember, what spell in A1 was replaced by Cloud of Blades in A2/A3?

I know Sanctuary was in A1, those Slith high priests liked to cast it...

[Thoukydides]

A2 actually gains two spells so none were replaced between that and A1. Priests get Cloud of Blades and Move Mountains and mages of course get Capture Soul and Simulacrum. A3 is where the spells get switched - Bind Foe for Spray Acid, Beast Ceremony for Forcecage, Protection for Terror (which was an awesome change since it got combined with War Blessing - and partly because I am having the hardest time figuring out the Protection equations), Sanctuary for Radiant Shield, and Divine Warrior for Divine Restoration.

 

Does Spray Acid work on a rakshasa? Not that I've ever got much use out of it, but if you've got nothing else to do with your mage, why not?

[Mestalidd]

Try Ravage spirit. Never worked for me but some people commented on my thread about this place a while back saying they used it and it worked. Probably only works in some versions. Save your game and go try to use it and if it doesnt work reload. (Ravage spirit can be found for free at Khoths library along with alot of other spells you can't live without.)

[Micawber]

I think Trenton has been, seen and conquered by this time. In any case Antimagic cloud is the spell for Rakshasi, and then you hack them to death.

[The Mystic]

You could also use Wound; it's cheap, and can be quite deadly when concentrated on one at a time.

[Alorael at Large]

Rakshasi are better at using magic against you than you are at using magic against them. Antimagic is the way to go.

 

—Alorael, who does not find it worthwhile to toss Wounds at them when they can offer disproportionate retribution.

[The Mystic]

Whatever works, works, I guess; since I tend to be a very heavy (almost to the point of being exclusive) magic user, that's how I usually kill them in the Exile series (of course, all my PCs are hasted so I can fire off about a dozen Wound spells per turn). As the saying goes, several methods exist with which one may divest a feline of its fur.

[Trenton.]

Thats right! I conquered those foolish rakshasi easily >.>

 

Ok not really. They like to drain my health points to halfway and zero first...

[Ishad Nha]

As I recall there were fewer Mage and Priest spells in A1 than in A2 and A3. The former had 18 of each while the latter had 20.

[Trenton.]

Avernum 1 was like a demo of Avernum 2-3. There is going to be less spells because it was created earlier. The later was given a chance to be given more spells.

[Alorael at Large]

In some ways. Unlike Exile 1, Avernum 4, Geneforge 1, or Avadon, the original Avernum wasn't the first use of its engine. That honor goes to Nethergate, which actually has a larger spell list.

 

—Alorael, who isn't quite sure why this thread had to be revived with a semi-relevant comment a month after its last post.

[Ishad Nha]

Yes, original Nethergate is what you get when you cross Blades of Exile with Avernum 1. It is halfway between the two games in terms of game mechanics, it uses the special nodes of BoE with the graphics of A1.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Ishad Nha

Yes, original Nethergate is what you get when you cross Blades of Exile with Avernum 1. It is halfway between the two games in terms of game mechanics, it uses the special nodes of BoE with the graphics of A1.

Totally not true. Nethergate's game mechanics have FAR, FAR more in common with A1 than they do with BoE.

As far as the way it's SCRIPTED, it's possible that it uses BoE nodes, but it's also possible that it uses something else entirely. We simply don't know.

Pretty much the only thing that original Nethergate specifically has in common with BoE is the dialogue system.

[Alorael at Large]

Ishad Nha has tinkered a lot with Nethergate and BoE data and has determined that they do, in fact, use the same node structure. He even catalogued the changes in what specific node types mean a while back, if memory serves.

 

—Alorael, who would say that while the games look and feel very different, their invisible mechanics are surprisingly similar. Nethergate isn't an intermediate, it's a mashup.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Everything is Impossible

In some ways. Unlike Exile 1, Avernum 4, Geneforge 1, or Avadon, the original Avernum wasn't the first use of its engine. That honor goes to Nethergate, which actually has a larger spell list.

—Alorael, who isn't quite sure why this thread had to be revived with a semi-relevant comment a month after its last post.

If you are going to say that Nethergate and Avernum share an engine, you can't say that Geneforge, the later Avernum games, and Avadon have different engines.

[Alorael at Large]

That's true. Engine isn't exactly what I mean, then. How about mechanical framework? They operate differently. Geneforge has essence and rapidly-renewing energy, potentially huge parties consisting mostly of non-PC creations, and frequent singletons. Avadon pioneers the use of 3-man parties with very distinct classes and skill trees instead of skill-stats. A4-6 operate rather similarly to the earlier Avernums, but without the tendency to derive skills from other skills, with substantially rebalanced combat, and with different graphics/terrain.

 

A1-3, in contrast, are actually quite similar to Nethergate. They work on the same skill system with only a few changes in skills, mostly for magic. The spell lists changed, but not a lot. The combat mechanics are well conserved and distinct from the Geneforge-derived combat of later games.

 

—Alorael, who could draw a phylogenetic tree of sorts for Spiderweb code. In the Nethergate is in one genus, and A1-3 and BoA share another; they're all in the same family. (N:R's placement is debatable, but probably with the Avernum genus.) The Exiles get a family to themselves. The later Avernums, the Geneforges, and Avadon are all classes in the third family. Yes, that makes family line up with graphics, basically, but that's also roughly equivalent to combat mechanics. You could also argue on those merits for the movement of Avadon to a separate family.

[Ishad Nha]

"As far as the way it's SCRIPTED, it's possible that it uses BoE nodes, but it's also possible that it uses something else entirely. We simply don't know."

House of S, I was able to decrypt large parts of the data files. I know that outdoor zones and towns have BoE-style special node arrays. Certain nodes will be different like those affecting Mage and Priest spells but they are usually the same for both games.

[Slawbug]

Wow, didn't know that about decrypting Nethergate. Pretty cool Ishad Nha!

 

I guess the main point then is that game mechanics and underlying development structure are two different things.

 

And I agree with Tyranicus: there are pretty clearly three main branches, one with some minor offshoots:

 

- Branch 1: Exile / BoE

- Branch 2: Nethergate / A1-3 / BoA / N:R

- Branch 3:

-- Sub-branch 3-1: Geneforge 1-5

-- Sub-branch 3-2: A4-6

-- Sub-branch 3-3: Avadon, A:EFTP

 

If original Nethergate is that different in node structure, I suppose that could be a sub-branch as well: but do we know which way A1-3 work? They don't have Avernumscript data files, do they?

[Ishad Nha]

Original Nethergate was easy to decrypt once I spotted the arrays of special nodes.

A1 thru A3 are wholly compiled like BoE and Original Nethergate, they have no scripts at all. I can decrypt only the dialog of A1,A2 and A3. I have no idea whether they have arrays of special nodes or something like compiled scripting. I can say that there is no room in the town and outdoor zone records for BoE-style special nodes. Only free space for that would be found in the program itself.

[Alorael at Large]

Hey, that's my classification!

 

I'd imagine that scripting was rolled into the original trilogy at some point because I doubt Jeff would port Geneforge's script system to BoA if there were already a perfectly suitable node system that had been successfully used for BoE. There's probably no way to know where in the lineage the switch from nodes to scripts happened, though. If I had to hazard a guess I'd go for A3, because that's where a number of other changes occurred.

 

—Alorael, who would bet that that's a question Jeff would answer. Especially if presented with phylogenetic trees that trace his games back to the vahnatai. Yes, vahnatai game creationism.

[Randomizer]

Jeff mentioned that A:EftP is based on the A6 sub-branch when I caught a bug in the A6 Cocoa version.

[Slawbug]

I'm sure that the AEFTP code used the A6 code rather than the Avadon code as a template. However, just as original Nethergate most of the game mechanics of Avernum 1 and few of BoE, AEFTP looks to have most of the game mechanics of Avadon and fewer of A6.

 

In particular, the basic character system is like Avadon's and not like A4-6's.

[Randomizer]

A:EftP uses a character system closer to A6 than Avadon. While they both use skill tree systems, the abilities are only the ones from the Avernum system without the Avadon cool down periods and those cool fighter area effects. There isn't the increasing skill point costs of the older Avernums, but otherwise it has most of the same prerequisites without needing stats.

 

The spell system stays the same and is done like A1-3 with each level giving different effects.

[Slawbug]

Well, you've played the beta and I haven't. I'm suspicious that I will still disagree after I play the game, but we'll see.

[Alorael at Large]

I'll back Randomizer on this one. It doesn't feel like playing A1, of course, and it doesn't play like A6 either. It does feel more like either one of them than like Avadon.

 

—Alorael, who thinks a lot of it has to do with the difference between skill trees that are largely passive and skill trees that are largely active. Also the magic system that operates like standard Spiderweb magic, not Avadon abilities.