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A:EftP - New Races Ever?


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I was thinking about jeff expanding the series races that you get. I noticed that vahnatai are very prevalent in the games of the series. Can anyone confirm if jeff will ever add them to playable races. It would be cool as a4 had kravvit bok, who imo was pretty cool bad guy. Does anyone else think this is possible?

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It is a bad idea. They are, by definition, stupidly overpowered. And if Jeff decided in some insanely dumb move to underpower them and include them in A5/6 (it wouldn't make sense plotwise in any of the earlier ones) as playable races, a) he'd have consistency issues with the previous A5/6 titles and B) he'd have consistency issues with A2, where their strength was displayed by them being able to drive out the vastly superior (at least by normal Avernite standards) empire forces.

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Jeff's stated reason for leaving Vahnatai unplayable has less to do with their power and more to do with the fact that he wants them to seem alien and incomprehensible, and having one wandering around with a group of humans doing human things would kind of weaken that effect.

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Originally Posted By: madrigan
Two words: Gully Dwarf


ARGH! No! No stupid pseudohuman races!

Dwarves, hobbits, kender, gnomes, halflings... I HATE ALL OF YOU!!!


Ahem...

One of the strengths of the Avernum/Exile series is that the racial diversity is greater than "standard human with a) pointy ears, b)wacky hair, c)some degree of dwarfism, and/or d) easily recognized foreign accent". No, I can't claim that the Nephilim and Slithzerkai are terrifically innovative, but at least they're not abused, tired clichés.
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Originally Posted By: Necris Omega
Originally Posted By: madrigan
Two words: Gully Dwarf


ARGH! No! No stupid pseudohuman races!

Dwarves, hobbits, kender, gnomes, halflings... I HATE ALL OF YOU!!!


Ahem...

One of the strengths of the Avernum/Exile series is that the racial diversity is greater than "standard human with a) pointy ears, b)wacky hair, c)some degree of dwarfism, and/or d) easily recognized foreign accent". No, I can't claim that the Nephilim and Slithzerkai are terrifically innovative, but at least they're not abused, tired clichés.

To be fair, more recent versions of D&D made a greater effort to present distinctive cultures and worldviews for the non-human races. Pathfinder also. But mainly I was trying to think of the worst possible PC race for Avernum. I suppose Dralasite would be cool, though. Plausible, even.
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The Vahnatai didn't really drive the Empire forces out, it took the combined might of the Vahnatai and Humans/Sliths/Nephilim. There's two reasons why the Vahnatai wont be playable. One is the reason Lilith mentioned, that there is such a gap between the playable races and the Vahnatai that the latter would never group up with the former. The other reason has more to do with storyline: this is a remake of a remake, and Jeff wants to make this as true to the story as possible (unfortunately, more for time and simplicity's sake than anything). Having a group of Vahnatai, or even one, would drastically effect the storyline of Avernum to the point where half or most of the games would have to be completely rewritten.

 

The only game where a Vahnatai could even be remotely playable would be Avernum 6, and even then, all the angry implications that the Vanhatai want the humans/niphilim out (and actually engineered the plague) would have to be adjusted to fit the extra character... and there are no plans to remake A6 anytime soon, anyway.

 

edit: although, if I said I wouldn't want a totally new race to be added to the game, I'd be lying...

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Okay then how about this, Jeff can rewrite the first trilogy and update the second so the story matches like change dialogue and stuff. And for Ruined World ONLY, you can play "A child Vahnatai, who is going to his manhood trial. So he decides to tag along with the Avernum adventurers" There can only be one Vahantai per party, because the Vahantai is still a child his potential is low, so at the beginning he will have slightly higher stats but later on the rest of the party will be about 0.5 to 1.0 times stronger.

 

Vahantai can only use certain equipment, classes and one trait. They are also either very negative or positive to dialogue. For example a party without a Vahnatau will be treated as normal adventurers, but when a Vahnatai joins they will be looked with staring eyes and will give you disadvantages.

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It's more than just "adding races for the heck of it." At this point, I'm paying $25+ for a game I've played twice before. It'll still be fun and all nostolgic, but you hope for as creative of changes as possible. Everyone's pretty happy about a new TOWN, so of course a new race, playable or not, would be pretty exciting if it can be intertwined with the story properly and wont seem, as you put it, "adding races for the heck of it."

 

I mean, it's a gigantic cave filled with two humanoid, intelligent creatures from deeper caves... a third is not a stretch.

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Originally Posted By: FAQ for A:EftP
We are planning to sell Avernum ourselves for Mac and Windows for $20. Anyone who has purchased Exile: Escape From the Pit or Avernum from us in any form (including on compilation CDs) can get the game from us for half off.

Moving onto a different point, in theory, Jukai, I agree with you completely. If a new (and interesting in more ways than just mechanical) playable race could be properly integrated in A:EftP, that'd be awesome.

In practice, doing so properly would require modifying the existing canon to account for their presence, a process which is not nearly as simple as it sounds. Inserting a new race into the mix introduces six games worth of plot holes and questions that would have to be addressed, and on top of that, you'd have to work out the new race's culture, customs, technology, and relation to the others, not to mention how they influence the games.

The other alternative is to just throw them in and handwave their presence away... but then we're right back to adding races for the heck of it.

As I said, there would be better odds of an already-existing race being added to the playable list, as it dodges most of the above issues.
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Originally Posted By: Jukai
It's more than just "adding races for the heck of it." At this point, I'm paying $25+ for a game I've played twice before. It'll still be fun and all nostolgic, but you hope for as creative of changes as possible. Everyone's pretty happy about a new TOWN, so of course a new race, playable or not, would be pretty exciting if it can be intertwined with the story properly and wont seem, as you put it, "adding races for the heck of it."

I mean, it's a gigantic cave filled with two humanoid, intelligent creatures from deeper caves... a third is not a stretch.
A:EftP will cost $20, and, if you have purchased the previous games, you can get it for $10.
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Quote:
It's more than just "adding races for the heck of it." At this point, I'm paying $25+ for a game I've played twice before. It'll still be fun and all nostolgic, but you hope for as creative of changes as possible.


Jeff always uses the analogy of Monopoly. While there are many variants, fundamentally, the game has not changed all that much and still sells. Agree or disagree with that model, it seems to work well enough in that it attracts a new generations of fans, and is less work than writing a game from scratch.

That said, there needs to be enough new content to make it worthwhile for longtime fans to stick with the franchise. Personally, I would like to see a bit more than simply a new settlement, and more in line with a more dynamic plot to make the key points more epic.
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Originally Posted By: *i

That said, there needs to be enough new content to make it worthwhile for longtime fans to stick with the franchise. Personally, I would like to see a bit more than simply a new settlement, and more in line with a more dynamic plot to make the key points more epic.


Well said.

More depth and more explanation of the things we know and love is always welcome. While I've no doubt the new settlement will be an interesting and worthy addition, I think I'll appreciate it more when I see how the third rendition of the fall of Fort Remote is handled, or how Sss-thsss is dealt with this time around.

If Jeff goes to make certain characters play a more active part in the story, more well fleshed out, and better developed, if he expounds upon the origins of cities, weapons, and creatures more, if he ups the drama from what it was, I think that will be the deciding point on the newest take on Exile, rather than one single new town.
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Originally Posted By: Kyronea
How about playable Goblins?

Just a thought.


That would be interesting. Though I'm thinking if you want to have new races just get Blades of Avernum and make your own non human NPCs to tag along with the party. (Would be great if Blades got remade to but I recall Jeff saying that would be highly unlikely frown )

As for the first remake, maybe make it so so can pick up a Slith or Nephil somewhere in the game and have them join your party, (Possibly replacing another member and leaving them at the INN for later if the size is still capped at 4)
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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
Why not just go with the Five-and-a-half and have a party of Erika, Patrick, Rone, Solberg, Aimee, and Linda?

Although I guess that would proceed somewhat like the old AD&D example of a party with one member of each possible alignment.


... no X in that party?
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