Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S Libraries aren't the same thing, because they are organized. Um, aren't bookstores normally organized too? Used bookstores aren't organized as thoroughly, and are less uniform in their composition. and an unused bookstore is no good to anybody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I'unno. Have you ever walked into the book section at a Goodwill store? I think you could drive any self respecting librarian/neat freak to Lovecraftian levels of insanity by sealing them in such abject chaos... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast The Mystic Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel Originally Posted By: The Mystic Also, as Randomizer pointed out, Spiderweb's games are still available via snail mail. I've generally relied on snail mail for the Spiderweb games, mainly because I got CD anthologies only. Yeah, I always get the CDs too, anthologies or otherwise. They make for a nice, handy backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Arch-Mage Solberg Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I am syked(sp?) about this. I've read a few posts and seen the screenshots and I like it. Outdoors is back, baby! Finally, the look that Avernum is supposed to have (the first three did but not the last three). I can't wait for Jeff to give the announcement for Beta-testing because I want to help contribute to Spiderweb Software. I've played and beaten 11 other of his games (Exile Trilogy, Avernum's 1-6, Geneforge 1, BoE and BoA and Avadon), but I've never beta-tested. Post # 588 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Beta testing with returning testers starts within a few weeks. After the initial bugs are slain and some very obvious exploits are eliminated by Jeff, he starts asking for volunteers to jump in the Pit. This will probably near the end of September. For some reason Jeff feels that his older testers are not giving him proper game balance information unless they say the game is too hard. The rats you meet in Avadon's dungeon used to be a lot harder on normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Ah, Jeff and his dirty rotten stinking epic rats... I wouldn't mind Jeff jumping on the "let's just scale and recycle our monster roster with increasingly threatening adjectives if we feel generous!" bandwagon if he'd just have taken the time to realize that no adjective will ever make throwing RATS at a level "I scrape demons off the soles of my shoes" character/party justified. Yeah, I'd PREFER Goblins to remain where they belong, glorified roaches really, but I can live with "Goblin Pioneers" somehow being a late mid-game threat. But rats? ... Yes, your "rat" graphic is lovely, now put it away. *Grumble grumble* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 true at a certain point rats should not be leveled up enough to attack you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 i dunno, if a dude can level up enough to beat a dragon then a rat can level up enough to beat a dude who can level up enough to beat a dragon (but for real fighting rats kind of sucks 90% of the time, unless they're freaky-ass exploding rats or something in which case that's okay every once in a while i guess) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Rent-an-Ihrno Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 A rat isn't necessarily a rat. That's like saying a dragon is a salamander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 ... a rat is a rat is a rat is a rat is a rat. Dragons are never invoked as Salamanders, and Salamanders are their own beast. They're always two separate and distinct reptiles. If you're SO hung up on recycling that damned rat graphic, use it for more than just rats. Graduate to Cave Badgers or Moles or ... something! Don't just go, Rat, Angry Rat, Angrier Rat, Angriest Rat, Angrierest Rat... It's a rat! It's still a rat! It will always be just a stupid RAT. You clear them out of the innkeeper's basement at level one and MOVE ON. Okay, fine, rodents can get pretty huge even in a non-magic setting, but when you say "rat" you're immediately invoking something small and tiny and unimpressive. "Colossal Rat" is at most few pounds. "Colossal Rodent" at least has some potential, but you're still citing something that's generally a job for an exterminator, not a mighty adventurer. Giant spiders, giant scorpions, giant snakes... fine. Giant Rats? ... there needs to be a cut off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Drat that rat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Triumph Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Rodents of Unusual Size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Rats have killed orders of magnitude more people than even the most epic adventuring party ever. Therefore, rats can defeat the most epic adventuring party ever. It's logic, shut up and don't argue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Rent-an-Ihrno Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 How about Angry Warped Ants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Is there ever a point where rats become so powerful that they stop behaving like rats, or does it just lead to your typical case of palette-swapped tiger infestation in the cellar? You'd think that people who live in these conditions would devise a way to deal with these incredibly dangerous infestations, but maybe there's only so much breeding you can put into a ratting dog/cat before its skin starts sloughing off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Enraged Slith You'd think that people who live in these conditions would devise a way to deal with these incredibly dangerous infestations They have, it called hire a group of adventurers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Irenicus Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I am very excited to play this remake. I played Avernum 2 first then Avernum 1 but I don't think I finished it. I just hope all the little secrets remain =p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Agreed. I hope they remain, and that they're expounded on. There was so much more potential with the gateway into the deeper Slithzerkai tunnels than what it got, and that dungeon that only opened at the first of every month always bugged me. I really ought to go back through it, though, to see if it gets a better explanation than what I remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Necris Omega Okay, fine, rodents can get pretty huge even in a non-magic setting, but when you say "rat" you're immediately invoking something small and tiny and unimpressive. "Colossal Rat" is at most few pounds. "Colossal Rodent" at least has some potential, but you're still citing something that's generally a job for an exterminator, not a mighty adventurer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lilith Originally Posted By: Necris Omega Okay, fine, rodents can get pretty huge even in a non-magic setting, but when you say "rat" you're immediately invoking something small and tiny and unimpressive. "Colossal Rat" is at most few pounds. "Colossal Rodent" at least has some potential, but you're still citing something that's generally a job for an exterminator, not a mighty adventurer. That clip cuts off way too early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Enraged Slith Originally Posted By: Lilith Originally Posted By: Necris Omega Okay, fine, rodents can get pretty huge even in a non-magic setting, but when you say "rat" you're immediately invoking something small and tiny and unimpressive. "Colossal Rat" is at most few pounds. "Colossal Rodent" at least has some potential, but you're still citing something that's generally a job for an exterminator, not a mighty adventurer. That clip cuts off way too early. Yes, it should start at the beginning of the movie and run to the end, that's the good bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lilith I was thinking about it, simply because I can't think of any other time where giant rodents have played such an integral role as a threat meant to be taken at least semi-seriously... That said, as much as I do love that movie, I still stick by my "rats shouldn't be high level threats" philosophy. Though I will go ahead and say it was pretty interesting/hilarious when you faced off against the bug*rat who'd gone all hive mind/monotreme in one of the later Avernums. That was clever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Jeff replaces Grah-Hoth with a demonic rat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Just for you all, I will be sorely tempted to put together a script hack that makes every character* in the game use a rat graphic. *Except Cheeseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Since this is the first Avernum, when you get to Motrax's Cave there are his two pet cats. Hmmm, a gigantic rat with cat pets. A real game of cat and mouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Quote: .. a rat is a rat is a rat is a rat is a rat. That is until you've seen a nutria. Now that is one hefty rodent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Harehunter That is until you've seen a nutria. Now that is one hefty rodent! It's basically a cross between a muskrat and a Guinea pig. Ecologically speaking, it may be scary when introduced into the wild, but in terms of adventuring potential it's less threatening than a giant rat. Actually, ecologically speaking, nutria are probably less threatening than a giant rat would be, too. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Originally Posted By: Harehunter That is until you've seen a nutria. Now that is one hefty rodent! It's basically a cross between a muskrat and a Guinea pig. Ecologically speaking, it may be scary when introduced into the wild, but in terms of adventuring potential it's less threatening than a giant rat. Actually, ecologically speaking, nutria are probably less threatening than a giant rat would be, too. Dikiyoba. Well, ecologically speaking, most thing that pose real threats to native ecology also pose no threat to people- kudzu and cane toads can really screw with the flora and fauna, but they can't kill people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Well, cane toads can if you eat enough of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Well, being Australian you would know more of the finer points of cane toad eating than I would, so I suppose you have a point there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Dragons are lizards not rats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Earth Empires Dragons are lizards not rats. Dragons are about as lizard as humans are monkey. There's nothing that says we can't have Dragon Rats (or would it be Rat Dragons?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I'll take, "Things Bahamut never intended the Half-dragon template to be applied to" for 500, Mr. Trebek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: Necris Omega I'll take, "Things Bahamut never intended the Half-dragon template to be applied to" for 500, Mr. Trebek. Well, we all know even Bahamut still needed a rat-tail, so there may be a connection there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lilith Well, cane toads can if you eat enough of them. Replace "cane toads" with a blank to be filled in and this applies to literally everything. —Alorael, who will charitably concede that it's actually quite difficult to eat enough of many of those things, some things really are drunk and not eaten, and however one ingests gas, it's both difficult to put too much in your stomach and not really eating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast VCH Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dantius Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Originally Posted By: Harehunter That is until you've seen a nutria. Now that is one hefty rodent! It's basically a cross between a muskrat and a Guinea pig. Ecologically speaking, it may be scary when introduced into the wild, but in terms of adventuring potential it's less threatening than a giant rat. Actually, ecologically speaking, nutria are probably less threatening than a giant rat would be, too. Dikiyoba. Well, ecologically speaking, most thing that pose real threats to native ecology also pose no threat to people- kudzu and cane toads can really screw with the flora and fauna, but they can't kill people. "MAKE CHASH FAST! KILL 100 CANE TOADS TO RECEIVE REWARD NO EXPERIENCE REQUIRED!" No direct danger, sure, but there's certainly some indirect danger, and that should be enough motivation for adventurers to go out and do some killing. But then humans don't usually think about long term repercussions, and those that do are rarely adventures, nor do they have the money to hire adventurers. There are of course many small invasive things, (and the majority of life on the this planet is small) that can easily kill people, for example, trypanosomes (malaria, and chagas disease) and nematodes (filariasis). As for the bigger invasive things, the best way to remove them is, strangely enough, sending in a group of people to smash, stomp, and bash away until they're gone. Less labour intensive strategies, such as biological control, (releasing another species to take care of the first one) and chemical spays, though effective in some cases, (Vedallia beetles in California) tend not to work as well. The caveat to this is that invasive species are damn hard to remove regardless of what method is used. By the way Lilith, how is the Cane toad battle going in Australia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Biological control makes a nice success story when it works, but when it doesn't work you end up releasing cane toads and, instead of killing off the cane beetles you keep them and add the problem of the toads. —Alorael, who believes you left out one other interesting control: for parasites, killing off hosts, including healthy hosts, can kill off parasites by leaving them without anything to live off of. You might need to reintroduce the native species you just massacred, but it can work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: Oldest Stomping Grounds —Alorael, who believes you left out one other interesting control: for parasites, killing off hosts, including healthy hosts, can kill off parasites by leaving them without anything to live off of. You might need to reintroduce the native species you just massacred, but it can work. Of course, that's only true for obligate parasites. Some parasites can live independently, and as such don't have to care overmuch whether their current meal ticket lives or dies. Not coincidentally, these tend to be more lethal than average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 It also has to be something whose host you can reasonably kill off and that won't be impossible to reintroduce. And it has to be specialized enough that you aren't emptying the ecosystem to get rid of one parasite. —Alorael, who doesn't really advocate it as a universal solution. It has worked, though, and it's a clever solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 use the scorched earth policy to the extreme and then terraform the place. then you start introducing things from microbes and up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: VCH No direct danger, sure, but there's certainly some indirect danger, and that should be enough motivation for adventurers to go out and do some killing. But then humans don't usually think about long term repercussions, and those that do are rarely adventures, nor do they have the money to hire adventurers. If we're going to worry about ecological soundness in Avernum, we have to first explain why 227 chitraches, 500 wolves, 2000 flesh-eating bats, and about a million giant lizards can all survive given that their prey base is one herd of escaped cows and the occasional explorer. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 The Missing Link Cave Camel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 also zillions of rats. also dragons eat (ate) those cows and goblins etc prolly butchered few of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Kyronea Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I love how this thread went from talking about used bookstores to ecological genocide. Anyway, I do agree that overuse of rats in RPGs as a whole is frustrating, but even more so if you're trying to set up a rat as a super hard enemy late in the game. Unless your party has been reduced to the size of gnats, it doesn't make much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I think Breath of Fire did that one time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Quote: Well, ecologically speaking, most thing that pose real threats to native ecology also pose no threat to people- kudzu and cane toads can really screw with the flora and fauna, but they can't kill people. You just had to mention kudzu, didn't you? Driving through Mississippi and Louisiana a month ago was an eerie experience whenever we came upon an area that was overrun by the plant. It brought to mind visions of some horrific 'B' movie akin to The Blob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast VCH Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Originally Posted By: VCH No direct danger, sure, but there's certainly some indirect danger, and that should be enough motivation for adventurers to go out and do some killing. But then humans don't usually think about long term repercussions, and those that do are rarely adventures, nor do they have the money to hire adventurers. If we're going to worry about ecological soundness in Avernum, we have to first explain why 227 chitraches, 500 wolves, 2000 flesh-eating bats, and about a million giant lizards can all survive given that their prey base is one herd of escaped cows and the occasional explorer. Dikiyoba. My specialty is symbiosis (parasitism, mutualism and commensalism) so I propose that the bats and chitraches have a symbiotic association (here a mutualism) with a chemosynthetic bacteria in their guts. The animals consume plentiful inorganic molecules containing sulfur, the chemosynthetic bacteria then convert co2 and water into organic compounds using the energy produced via oxidation of the sulfur . The bacterial population grows and is "selectively harvested" by the animals. But when plentiful free-living food sources are available the animals switch over to them. The bacteria are then solely sustained by this food source or a combination of both As a real world example take the deep-sea bivalve and tube worm species that live near hydrothermal vents, and have symbiotic associations with sulphur oxidizing bacteria. As for the cave-wolves, well, I don't know, they were sent down recently (how long has the portal been operational?) so I doubt that such a symbiosis would have developed. On the other hand, perhaps Avernum's cave-wolves are descended from surface dwelling cave wolves that have a similar symbiotic association as the bats and chitraches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 The wolves were imported into upper Avernum by bandits in A3. They were previously unknown in Avernum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Skwish-E Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 The wolves eat the bats and chitrachs. That's why there arent 1,000 chitrachs and 10,000 flesh-eating bats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody madrigan Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 The various underworld creatures can perform reverse photosynthesis and convert the dark into energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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