Confusion Over The Plot Of Avernum 3 *unmarked Spoilers*

[Slawbug]

Aha, I found the reference. Julio in E2:

"Never found one. But someone else did, in the last place I was going to look! Can't get to it now. Empire owns that land. Hear they sealed it up, but good. Total waste."

 

The actual exit in A2:

"The passage has been sloping sharply upward for miles, bringing you, you're sure, close to the surface world. However, the corridor has been sealed off by one of the most massive rockfalls you've ever seen."

[Alorael at Large]

That's not conclusive, though. It could be that they sealed it up and then teleported down, but they could also have come down, set up the teleporter, and then sealed the exit.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the Empire bothering to seal it argues for the former. They certainly weren't going to predict a loss, and why teleport when you can walk?

[Slawbug]

Also, remember that a few years passed after the assassination, before the Empire set up camp in Avernum. Seems unlikely they'd leave the exit open during that time, though they certainly might have sent a few scouts or mages in first.

[Harehunter]

One thing I remembered is that in EA1 there were four other 'false' entrances to the underworld, with the fifth one still open.

 

Final Gauntlet - near Sulfras

Motrax Maze - near Motrax

West of the Honeycomb - near Athron

Lair of Khoth - near Khoth

Sulfur Caverns - near Grah-Hoth

 

At first I thought that the entrances had originally been used by the dragons to travel between the surface and their lairs; five dragons, five exits.

 

Quote:

Motrax (Exile 1) -- I have humans come here, and I learn of their ways and of the land above ground. I would like to visit. Alas, your leaders would no doubt cast me below again, at best

So the tunnels did lead to the surface, and were collapsed to prevent the dragons from returning to the surface. With one notable exception...

 

However, there is no passage near Pyrog. Was his lair originally located where the fortress of Grah-Hoth exists and had to find new digs? This could account somewhat for his foul temper.

 

Motrax had had previous dealings with the Empire at the time of the First Expedition. I might guess that they had come down via the caved-in exit near his lair. They explored as far as the Undead Spiral, where a number of them perished. The remaining party fled north, back to the entrance near Motrax's lair, but they could not go through it. When Motrax denied their pleas for help, killing their leader, they went east to where the tunnel led back to the surface. Finding it blocked, they returned to the caves where they were finally killed.

 

Could it be that the members of the First Expedition were chosen by Garzahd and it was intended that they die in Exile/Avernum?

 

It is interesting that the exit tunnel near Sulfras was not blocked; heavily protected, but not blocked. Did the Empire have some kind of deal with Sulfras? But in EA2, the Sulfras has been taken prisoner, and the exit tunnel collapsed. Perhaps Garzahd suspected Sulfras' complicity in Hawthorne's assassination, and in a fit of fury ordered Sulfras captured. Realizing that there was a chance of Sulfras escaping, he ordered that the tunnel be destroyed.

 

As to the location of the Portals, I have a few questions / comments:

 

1) How did the mages who built them originally arrive at those locations? Were they were teleported in, in much the same manner that Erika transported the assassins into Hawthornes Castle, or did they leverage their deal with Sulfras? I suspect the latter case to be true, because in Avernum 5 you are told that there is a team of mages going before you to erect the teleportation pylons. This would make it seem that conventional transportation to the site is preferred.

 

2) Fort Exile/Avernum is positioned away from all these exits. It's location was obviously chosen to keep their 'inmates' from finding a way to escape their Exile.

 

3) However, with regard to the teleporter used in EA2 to transport the Empire invasion down, they would have had to do the trick that Erika had used, since the tunnel near Sulfras was now destroyed. It would seem that its location is not random, but based upon some aspect of the ground it is on. Erika had used it to send the assassins up, with no pylon construction required; therefore the Empire could have used it to teleport their build team there. But teleporting with out a pylon is risky business, and requires a greater expenditure of energy. Therefore they undertook the building of a super teleporter.

 

As to the geographical juxtapositions between Exile / Avernum, I can extract no direct correlation between Avernum and Valorim. It makes sense that the portals would be located in relatively close proximity in 3D space. On the other hand, there may exist other dimensions in the continuum of magic, dimensions that make magic possible.

[Slawbug]

1) Interesting observations about the location of the collapsed exits and the dragons. However, other than Sulfras, the exits aren't actually that close to the dragons' lairs, they are just in similar map segments -- and Pyrog is as far as possible from all the exits.

 

Also, there is nothing in the games to suggest that the dragons ever used or had anything to do with the exits, despite plenty of discussion of the exits. It is explicitly stated that the Empire destroyed all the exits but one to make sure that the exiles could not escape. It is also explicitly stated that the dragons stay underground by choice to avoid humans in general and the Empire in particular. Anyway, as X3 demonstrates, the dragons were perfectly capable of finding their own ways to the surface without those exits.

 

2) How was Sulfras complicit in Hawthorne's assassination? S/he had nothing to do with it.

 

3) Teleportation conventions in A4-6 are totally different than in earlier games. It's clear there's been some serious advances in teleportation magic in the intervening decades. This is explicitly stated -- look at how the portal mages in those games make fun of the X2 Tower of Magi portal.

 

4) The First Expedition was a very long time before X2. It's unlikely that Garzahd was an adult, let alone a powerful political figure, then.

 

5) There are a lot of scattered pieces of data about the First Expedition in X1. For a redux, see:

HERE

(alternate link since EE seems to be down)

[Harehunter]

Quote:

Pyrog is as far as possible from all the exits.

I know, and it frustrated me seriously. That is why I submitted a possible explanation that Grah-Hoth may have something to do with it. The time of Pyrog's moving away from the tunnel would have happened long after the tunnels collapse.

As to whether the dragons had used the tunnels before, well that was a very long time before X1. Motrax complained about the leaders casting him down. The Empire has, as I understand it, a long history of purging the surface of non-humans. Certainly the dragons would have wearied of the annoyance of those pesky humans, and simply decided that it was not worth their while to put up with it anymore. The dragons were not so much as cast down as they were just tired of the nonsense.

No, Sulfras was not truly complicit in the assassination of Hawthorne. But because S/he allowed the X1 team to reach the surface, the same team that killed Hawthorne, the Empire wrongfully jumped to that conclusion. S/he should have killed the adventurers, but by not doing so, S/he aided and abetted the assassins, at least in the interpretation of the Empire.

Indeed, Garzahd could not have destroyed the other four exits, being either too young, or not yet born. The tunnel near Sulfras would have been the only one left open by agreement to the original pact. Only after Hawthorne was killed was this final route destroyed. I imagine that Garzahd would have one of only a handful of mages capable of doing that, since he had been on such a campaign to exile any wizard capable of challenging him.

I am glad you also noted one more very interesting point: the dragons were indeed not truly trapped in the underworld, as the Empire had presumed. Dragons have abilities to escape a trap as paltry as collapsing a tunnel. They only accepted it as long as it suited them, and when they decided to return to the surface, they did.

And drat my failing faculties. I had thought that there had been mention of several different expeditions, instead of one expedition split into many parts. I hope you can restore your web pages. I would very much like to review your historical documentary.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

Quote:

Pyrog is as far as possible from all the exits.

I know, and it frustrated me seriously. That is why I submitted a possible explanation that Grah-Hoth may have something to do with it.

The dragon theory doesn't make much sense to begin with. Making it the "Dragons + Grah-Hoth Theory" is even more absurd.

Quote:

Motrax complained about the leaders casting him down.

Motrax did no such thing. In the line you quoted, he says "I would like to visit. Alas, your leaders would no doubt cast me below again, at best." "Again" could mean that the human leaders already cast him down once. But it could also just mean that then he would be down below, again. Given what we know about the Empire's policies towards dangerous magical creatures, it seems far more likely that they would have just killed Motrax.

Your entire post is stretching logical conclusions beyond the point of logic to try and fit the theory you have decided to advance.

Finally, Encyclopedia Ermarian isn't on my web space, it's on Arancaytar's, and it's a bad source to use for these discussions because it often combines game canon with community scenario lore. Sometimes the distinction is easy to see and sometimes it is not.

[Alorael at Large]

A1 has a strong implication that a party that escapes to the surface manages to get away with it without being detected. If we assume that the party that kills Hawthorne also escapes later, the Empire has no way of knowing. In fact, the assassination of Hawthorne has nothing to do with escaping to the surface, and the Empire has no reason to suspect it does: the assassins very clearly teleport in, kill, and teleport out.

 

It seems much more likely that they collapsed most entrances and left one just in case, maybe to save on their warding budget. Most of the other exits are either too close to Avernite civilization, or the likely place for it given where Fort Avernum is, or too close to demons for comfort.

 

It makes more sense that the exits were collapsed for security, one was left and warded, maybe to facilitate more infiltration or to give a back door for the Empire's underground agents, and the Empire may or may not have used that exit as an entrance to launch their war. Either way, once they realized that Avernites were not just inmates but threats, they decided that the wards weren't sufficient to guarantee safety and just closed the exit off entirely.

 

—Alorael, who now imagines that Prazac's peace overture had several levels of pragmatism. She knew that Avernum was a force to be reckoned with: it had assassinated an emperor out of nowhere, fought off the Empire, and gotten out of the caves even with all the exits demolished. She couldn't stop them even if she wanted to and even if there were no plagues. Instead, she leveraged their penchant for heroism and the fact that she could offer them a chance not to fight an impossible underdog war. Prazac may not actually be nicer than her ancestors, but she's much smarter.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Alorael

Prazac may not actually be nicer than her ancestor's, but she's much smarter.

Nicer than her ancestor's what?

[Lemur Industries]

I think not too many of the false exits we find in the games were actually collapsed from above, but simply misleading tunnels that don't make it to the surface.

 

I do recall at least one of the false exits in A1 being described as failed mining attempt to dig up and out. Avernum is likely extremely deep beneath the earth and any exits would require great upward distances. The caves west of Remote are miles long and I seem to recall they sloped upwards almost all the way north.

 

I would strongly suspect all the exits that were used by the Dragons and GIFTs weren't usable by humans. They could very well be giant vertical shafts up, as Dragons can fly and GIFTs can walk up walls. Their mouths could be on the roof of the larger caves, miles above, totally inaccessible.

 

My confusion over the entering and exiting of Avernum relates largely to the number of what I assume are ancient human crypts found in the series, as well as the various Liches of great age who speak the same language as us without any accents. I always assumed they weren't Vahnatai as they have their own distinctive undead, and our party specifically notes that one Vahnatai shade in A1 as being clearly alien from ourselves.

 

Though Jeff could use a generic model for all skeletons/zombies wouldn't he at least describe them as being clearly not human undead (wouldn't Slith skeletons/zombies still have tails?)

 

Could there have been humans living in Avernum long before the First Expedition? Possibly wiped out by the Sliths when they emerged from the lower caves?

 

There's the Vampire near Formello, Drath, and there was clearly more undead within the Spiral Crypt than just the party of the First Expedition who met their grisly end there. Even after killing their ghosts, and purging the area they died in in A2 the undead were still strong there. I get the sense the evil there was very very old.

 

The one in A5 is clearly a human crypt as we see the human ghosts, and is described as being incredibly old. Plus its location is in the frontier which was new to the Avernites in A5.

[Trenton.]

One more thought, What about the dragons? Were they shoved into the most Ginormus portal anyone has seen into avernum? or were they natives to the caves?

[nikki.]

(I think this was already stated in this thread; I am, like you, being too lazy to look, but) the dragons pretty much say that they came to Avernum/Exile by choice, because they despise the Empire. Also because the Empire would probably have killed them, rather than trying to shove them through a huge portal.

[Harehunter]

Quote:

The dragon theory doesn't make much sense to begin with. Making it the "Dragons + Grah-Hoth Theory" is even more absurd.

I knew it to be a bit of a stretch. I just thought I had seen some coincidental relationship. Ah, well, back to the old drawing board. Not all theories are meant to survive. Indeed, many are posited for the sole purpose of a straw-man; if it can be shown to be false, then it has served it's purpose of lending another proof to the currently supported hypothesis. This is essential when trying to prove something that is based on the concept that if all other ideas fail, what remains must be the truth.

Quote:

Finally, Encyclopedia Ermarian ... is a bad source to use for these discussions because it often combines game canon with community scenario lore.

Could you recommend another source for the history of this realm. Seriously, just as I found that the Myst novels helped to flesh out the story of those worlds, I would enjoy a good compilation on the history of Avernum to help tie together the story of the series.

Alorael, I concur with the idea that the Empire used the one tunnel left open, yet warded for the purpose of infiltrating spies into Avernum. It seems that an Empire agent would have detected that someone had passed through, leaving tripped safeties and wheels turned that should not have been. It may have taken them days or weeks before someone discovered the discrepancies. Garzahd, for all his intelligence is a highly paranoid soul. In such a state, he could have jumped to the illogical conclusion that the assassination of his emperor and the tell-tale passage of Avernites through the gauntlet are related, assuming that a party capable of teleporting to the surface would also be capable of passing through the Gauntlet with the safeties still enabled. He may or may not suspect Erika of assisting the assassins, but it would not matter in any respect. Avernum has attacked the Empire and must be wiped out completely. The tunnel would have been collapsed to ensure that no Avernite escaped his 'just' punishment.

The number and separation of the undead crypts is what led me to think that there may have been multiple Expeditions, with one of the earliest, largest and best recorded one being designated as the 'First Expedition'.

[Slawbug]

Like eight different people/dragons mention that the First Expedition was scattered and split up by marauding demons, undead, sliths, and nephils.

 

As for the crypts, X1 only has one human crypt and X2 doesn't have any. X1 does have a Vahnatai crypt (explicitly labelled as such), a Slith crypt and a Nephar crypt. The one human crypt is a bit of a mystery -- it's clearly not Empire-built, but it doesn't seem likely to have been Exile-built either.

[Jerakeen]

Quote:

The number and separation of the undead crypts is what led me to think that there may have been multiple Expeditions

Just pulling this out of my, um, ear, but who says those dead have to be from the Empire? Sure, it's been around a long time, but not forever. Who knows what mighty civilizations flourished in aeons past? Or not so mighty, but highly inquisitive and magically talented? And so on.

Discoveries can be made over and over again. Knowledge can be lost. History can be forgotten. Sort of thing.

Plenty of real history goes unrecorded and many of our artifacts and sites are perplexing at best. Why should imaginary history be held to a higher standard?

[Kyronea]

Certainly, the existence of human crypts in Avernum confuses things.

 

I think it's possible there were humans living in Avernum prior to the Empire using the place as a prison. On the other hand, they would have had to deal with Grah-Hoth and other demons, which would have made living there decidedly more difficult.

[Jerakeen]

Well, they wouldn't have had to live there for very long. They could have just used it as a burial place for particularly evil sorcerers and necromancers--the magical equivalent of toxic waste. It would be ideal, really, from the surface worlder's perspective. You can't get rid of the danger, so you literally bury it as deep as possible.

[Kyronea]

That's a good point. It'd be a great way to deal with such things.

[Slawbug]

This _is_ a good point. There was a lengthy gap between the First Expedition and the use of Exile as a prison. The caves were so full of monsters that there seemed no use for them, but that doesn't mean they weren't taken advantage of by bandits and the like.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Trenton Uchiha, rebel servile.

What about the dragons?

They teleported themselves to underground.

[Kyronea]

Interestingly, regarding the subject of the location of Avernum in regards to Valorim, I just found a possible reference to it, regarding the Sliths in the Golddale mines of X3:

 

Originally Posted By: Encounter Notes

You find the Slithzerika chief's journal. You puzzle your way through it, trying to find out what these creatures, so far unknown on the surface, are doing here. These slithes were members of a band in Exile led by the evil and might chief Sss-Thsss. After Sss-Thss was killed by adventures, they went off into tunnels unreached by humans. After years of nomadic wandering, they found a way to the surface. After a year more, they decided to take up banditry. They came here, and the journal ends.

 

Now this doesn't say anything specific but it does suggest that Avernum is vaguely near Valorim relative to the surface. On the other hand, with years of wandering they could easily cross half the planet, meaning they could have come from underneath another continent, so all it does is raise more questions than it answers. Still, interesting.

[Slawbug]

An immense system of tunnels underneath a continent somehow seems less absurd than an immense system of tunnels underneath oceans. I'm not sure if there's any geological sense beneath those seems, though.

[Kyronea]

Well, there is the Mid-Atlantic Ridge that would make that fairly difficult in the Atlantic, but the Pacific is mostly one plate with large portions of its edges under surrounding continents(hence the Ring of Fire) so that might be why you think that.

 

Though to be fair Avernum's caves are absurd in reality regardless of where they're located. The Great Cave is large enough to have rain. Even the small distances between Fort Avernum and Silvar/Fort Duvno are stated to be up to thirty miles. Avernum is really more like a continent in and of itself than a cave system.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Kyronea

Though to be fair Avernum's caves are absurd in reality regardless of where they're located. The Great Cave is large enough to have rain.

It's easier than you might think to produce rain indoors. The Vehicle Assembly Building at the Kennedy Space Center needs special air conditioning systems in order to prevent rainclouds from forming inside it on humid days.

[Kyronea]

Wow. I did not know that. The More You Know Indeed. That is an awesomely interesting fact. Thank you for sharing that. (I mean all of this seriously, by the way, in case this sounds sarcastic somehow.)

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

The dragon theory doesn't make much sense to begin with. Making it the "Dragons + Grah-Hoth Theory" is even more absurd.

I've always assumed that the dragons were responsible, simply because of the proximity of the passages to their lairs, and dragons being one of the few creatures with powerful enough magic to achieve such a feat. Guess I was wrong.

[Harehunter]

In the early days of the Astrodome in Houston , they had put clear panels in the overhead dome. This caused a greenhouse effect inside the dome, resulting in rain inside the dome.

Rain inside the Astrodome. To prevent this, they had to apply a translucent paint to those panels.

 

While this does not apply to the Great Cave, there is another explanation for it to rain. If you have enough moisture in the air, and you have two thermal layers, with the warm/moist air below and rising into an upper layer of cold air, the moisture will condense into water droplets forming clouds. Add enough moisture to the cold upper layer, and those droplets of water get large enough to fall down as rain.