Parry rates

[Slawbug]

Hey beta testers --

 

Back when the game listed hit chances, did it also list parry percentages? What I'm wondering is if the same flat parry percentage is used for all types of attacks, or if the rate used for missiles or magical attacks is lower. Also, can all magical attacks be parried?

[Randomizer]

No numbers.

I know single target magical attacks can be parried. I think Jeff might have simplified things and used only one value for all, but the only way to tell is repeated testing.

[Slawbug]

Hmm. I'll have to test this. I've been putting together some survivability numbers, and this will have a huge impact on how the Blademaster compares.

[Slawbug]

Huh. I could have sworn I'd seen AoE and cone attacks get parried before, but I can't reproduce that behavior now.

 

Since the majority of magic attacks are not single target anyway, that makes my question largely irrelevant.

[Randomizer]

Overall a blademaster is superior for damage avoidance and survivablilty because of parry against most attacks depending upon your build. I still need to do the last Castle Vebeaux quest and see how it fares against a room full of basilisks. A sorceress resists and kills them easily while a shadowwalker takes a long time between getting in a hit.

[Slawbug]

Actually, that's incorrect, or at least it's very different from what the numbers are telling me. Blademasters and Shadowwalkers have almost identical armor options that will bring them to about 76% Armor. The Shadowwalker's resistance skill will increase this to 87% Armor, while the Blademaster's Parry will block a percentage of physical hits giving him the equivalent of 85% Armor, in terms of actual damage taken. And this is without taking into account any Parry the Shadowwalker may have from equipment. So these are very close.

 

Note that if Parry works at a lower rate on missile attacks or AoE physical attacks (which it seems to -- I can't even get it to activate against Blade Whirlwinds during my current testing), the Blademaster's number might effectively be lower.

 

When it comes to other types of attacks, things are grimmer for the Blademaster: he ends up with base resistances of 52% against magic and 38% against everything else, compared to the Shadowwalker with 65% or 69% against everything else. Even if Parry worked on all special attacks (which it doesn't seem to), and even if it worked at its full rate on missile attacks (which is unclear), the Blademaster would still be worse off on all special attacks except for vanilla magic attacks. But if Parry usually doesn't work on magic (which is what seems to be the case), the Shadowwalker has by far the worst defense against special attacks of any of the classes, taking twice as much damage as anyone else.

 

As for the other two classes: the Sorceress has good numbers. When Shadow Charm is active she gets the equivalent of 83% Armor, 52% Poison and Acid, and insanely high elemental damage blocking (88%) once she's filled out Focus Mastery. The Shaman has very good numbers against special attacks (70% or 74% against everything) but a miserably atrocious Armor rating of 71%, leaving her to take twice as much physical damage as anyone else.

[Soul of Wit]

If we're talking survivability then the BM can do very well. His build allows for regeneration without the use of ability or consumables (passive trait).

[Slawbug]

If you're going to list the good things about the trait, it's only fair to list the bad things about it: it will only activate, at most, 1 in 3 times the BM is struck. The SW can get a free Battle Fury at slightly higher odds when struck, which is at least as good (you can always use it to eat some infinitely-available bread, essentially duplicating the regeneration effect) and in most cases a lot better.

 

I emailed Jeff asking about Parry. When/if I get an answer, I'm going to do all this out in a Google Docs spreadsheet so everyone can look at it and comment.

[Slawbug]

Okay, here is the Google Doc spreadsheet:

 

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=...uthkey=CKOl1PUF

 

I did this out again, using the weapons and armor that seem most likely to be equipped by a typical end-game character. I allowed class-specific items this time but did not go all-out for any particular goal (such as dodging or damage bonuses).

 

The Sorceress should only have 90%, not 92%, mental resistance because of the cap. I believe the numbers for her other resistances are accurate since the Focus Mastery absorption and the Bladeshield are accounted for after the 90% cap is applied.

 

Instead of waiting for an answer on Parry, I just made separate rows for Parryable and non-fully-Parryable attacks.

 

As you can see, the Shaman takes twice as much as other classes vs physical attacks, while the Blademaster takes twice as much vs fire, ice, poison, and acid; but they do get bonus HP and healing help. The Sorceress's only real weakness is poison and acid, and she gets ludicrously great elemental defense, while the Shadowwalker is just good all-around; and they both get mental defense.

[Slawbug]

Some more interesting discoveries:

 

All abilities gain bonus levels of damage from character level. Most abilities also gain bonus levels of damage from a stat and some also gain them from a weapon. The following combinations are possible

 

1) Strength + Melee Weapon. Used only for melee attacks. This includes BM (regular melee, Savage Blow, Stunning Bash, Hamstring) and SW (regular melee, Disarming Blow, Shattering Blow).

 

2) Dexterity + Missile Weapon. Used only for ranged physical attacks. This includes all missile attacks, plus BM (Berserk Leap, Sharpshooter Spray, Blades Sweep, Berserker Slash) and SW (Blade Whirlwind, Razor Spray).

 

3) Dexterity. Used for SW (Searing Pot, Lightning Pot, Steel Tornado) and SH (Call the Storm, Earthquake, Earthshatter). I have no idea why those Shaman abilities use Dex and not Int, but they do.

 

4) Intelligence + Magic Weapon. Used only for SH and SO regular attacks.

 

5) Intelligence. Used for all SO damage abilities and the remaining SH damage abilities (Spirit Charge, Poison Mist, Acid Mist, Call the Winds).

 

6) Dexterity OR Intelligence. Used for all (?) damage abilities gained from scarabs. Dexterity is used on BM and SW, while Intelligence is used on SH and SO. (Haven't tested on the later attack scarabs, but assume this is the same)

 

7) No stat or item bonuses. Used for all healing abilities. Also, the power of summons and buffs does not increase for stats, but their duration sometimes does increase for Int. (Note however that the Group Heal scarab -is- improved if the Shaman uses it and improves her Group Heal skill.)

 

 

This has some fallout. To wit:

 

- BM and SW can do about 65-80% as much magic damage as SH and SO, if they pump Dex and use scarabs. This is significant since Dex provides important defensive benefits and also powers ranged attacks and abilities, but Int does nothing useful beyond powering direct damage magic. Also, this means you do not need SH or SO to use magical AoE attacks.

 

- SH does not need Int to power healing or summoning abilities, and has several attack abilities that are powered by Dex. See above about why Dex may be better than Int.

 

- Several melee-themed BM abilities are better served by Dex and a good missile weapon, than by Str.

 

- As an additional note, the SO's innate abilities are all mostly weaker than scarab attacks. (Scarab ice and lightning attacks do 1-5 per level of Dex/Int, the SO's spells do 1-3 per level of Int, or 1-4 per level for the 6-cost spells.) The earlier SH spells are weaker, but the best SH spells use Dex and do equal damage (1-4 per level) or greater damage (1-6 for Earthquake/shatter). Also, Focus Mastery adds less to damage, on average, than Nature Mastery does. Therefore, although the SO does absorb elemental damage like crazy, it's hard to see what other use she really has.

[Jerakeen]

Missile Weapon bonuses apply to Blade Sweep, Blade Whirlwind, etc.? Weird.

 

And is it really practical to go for a high-dex, low intelligence shaman? You'd be sacrificing damage output on the majority of her spells, just to boost it on a few that you can only use in about the last third of the game.

[Slawbug]

Her missile attack is nearly as good as her magical attack if you pump Dex. Her lower tier spells are weak anyway. You do sacrifice the use of the attack scarabs with Nature Mastery. But her summoning and healing abilities are unaffected. It's a question of damage output versus survivability -- given her poor physical defense, an important question for the shaman.

 

The first earthquake ability is available not too far into the game -- you can get it at level 7, I think. It would mean delaying on the Hellhound or Group Heal a bit, but if you were going to go for Spirit Charge anyway, you don't lose much time.

[Slawbug]

More info:

 

Usable abilities that are listed as "5% per level" starting at level 3, in fact give you 5% per level starting at level 1, but only once you have reached level 3 in that skill. In other words, you get 15% at level 3, 20% at level 4, etc. This applies to status effects from spells and also to cleave and critical bonuses on attacks.

 

This is contrary to what the Class Analysis Guide says.

 

This is clearly not how the resistance-increasing skills work. I'm not sure which way the central column critical-boosting and damge-boosting skills work, but I'm guessing it's like the resistance skills and not the ability skills.

[Soul of Wit]

The usefulness of the SO is primary mid-game damage dealer and yet-another-damge-dealer for the final battle.

 

The SO is quite useful in the mid-game. She can deal out massive damage. I gave her every magic damage boosting item that I found. I also gave her the heal yourself scarab. In the late-game, she can use abilities almost continuously. The glass cannon is functional, but arguably the weakest class.

[Slawbug]

I tacked on a second sheet dealing with damage output:

 

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=...=CKOl1PUF#gid=2

 

This one necessitated making more assumptions than the defense spreadsheet, both about equipment and skills, so I think its numbers are less conclusive. However, since there seem to be comparable amounts of % boosts to melee, missile, and magical damage from equipment, I don't think equipment choice throws this one off much. I calculated for level 30 characters with the middle column at 11 plus equipment bonuses, and basic attack skills at 8 plus bonuses.

 

Also, I'm not sure about certain pieces of the algorithms -- in particular, whether percentile damage boosts and summed and then applied, or applied one by one. But that shouldn't make a huge difference, and it affects all classes and attacks equally, save backstab damage.

 

Note that the damage listed in the spreadsheet is average damage, and that it does not account for armor or resistance on enemies (both are quite common). Because I've averaged the impact of critical hits, the damage is higher than for a typical non-critical hit, but lower than for a typical critical hit. Finally, note that the damage ranges displayed in-game are not adjusted to account for damage % increasing effects (or critical hits). Those reasons are why the numbers here look so large.

 

However, this does point to a number of lessons.

 

1) Putting all your stat points into the relevant stat for an attack will increase its damage by about 50%. (This looks like it should be relatively constant throughout the game, given the different factors that feed into it.) While this is very cool, it is clearly much less powerful than the defensive value you get from investing in Dexterity and Endurance. However, 50% is still a strong enough effect to make Dex-based attacks (missile attacks, and scarab attacks from BM/SW, and some SH spells) look more attractive than many Str- and Int- based attacks.

 

2) On top of that, the calculations suggest that eventually, BM and SW will both do more damage with missile attacks than melee attacks (except when Backstab is activated). This is not so true early in the game, when the missile skill is hard to build and the melee skill is easy to build.

 

3) The SH and SO do less damage, but have many chances for AoE attacks.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

More info:

Usable abilities that are listed as "5% per level" starting at level 3, in fact give you 5% per level starting at level 1, but only once you have reached level 3 in that skill. In other words, you get 15% at level 3, 20% at level 4, etc. This applies to status effects from spells and also to cleave and critical bonuses on attacks.

This is contrary to what the Class Analysis Guide says.

This is clearly not how the resistance-increasing skills work. I'm not sure which way the central column critical-boosting and damge-boosting skills work, but I'm guessing it's like the resistance skills and not the ability skills.

This is strange because the listed 3rd level skill for the lower left passive attack skill in the weapon box uses a chance to hit starting at level 3. But Jeff may have used a different line of code to show this instead of the one for actual combat. I remember because the cleave shot damage shown was different than normal damage during beta testing.

The only ability that I tested was SO Focus Mastery because there was a bug during beta testing.

[Slawbug]

Right, but then look at what the game displays when you hover over your weapon. 10% higher than you'd expect.

 

Edit: as an example in action, take a look at the SW skill Healing Focus. If it's at level 3, it gets a 20% chance "per level" to remove a status effect. You can see the 20% part in the ability defs file. But in my experience, it has usually removed a status effect even at level 3 -- which fits way better with 60% than 20%.

[Slawbug]

Jeff replied to my email with the following: "Parry only works against touch attacks and single target missile attacks, not AEs." I assume this means that it works at full effectiveness against both touch and single target missile attacks.

[Triumph]

If it hasn't already, this needs to go in Strategy Central.

[Lokiron]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

1) Strength + Melee Weapon. Used only for melee attacks. This includes BM (regular melee, Savage Blow, Stunning Bash, Hamstring) and SW (regular melee, Disarming Blow, Shattering Blow).

2) Dexterity + Missile Weapon. Used only for ranged physical attacks. This includes all missile attacks, plus BM (Berserk Leap, Sharpshooter Spray, Blades Sweep, Berserker Slash) and SW (Blade Whirlwind, Razor Spray).

3) Dexterity. Used for SW (Searing Pot, Lightning Pot, Steel Tornado) and SH (Call the Storm, Earthquake, Earthshatter). I have no idea why those Shaman abilities use Dex and not Int, but they do.

4) Intelligence + Magic Weapon. Used only for SH and SO regular attacks.

5) Intelligence. Used for all SO damage abilities and the remaining SH damage abilities (Spirit Charge, Poison Mist, Acid Mist, Call the Winds).

6) Dexterity OR Intelligence. Used for all (?) damage abilities gained from scarabs. Dexterity is used on BM and SW, while Intelligence is used on SH and SO. (Haven't tested on the later attack scarabs, but assume this is the same)

7) No stat or item bonuses. Used for all healing abilities. Also, the power of summons and buffs does not increase for stats, but their duration sometimes does increase for Int. (Note however that the Group Heal scarab -is- improved if the Shaman uses it and improves her Group Heal skill.)

This follows the "Appendix A - Avadon Combat Rules" in the Avadon Instructions.pdf to some degree.

The BM abilities on DEX are kind of ranged or AE (Blade Sweep, Leap).

From this appendix dex SHOULD determine earthquake (ranged physical, right?).
But then again, all poison and acid should base on DEX. And Call the Storm, being Cold, should be INT.

If your list is correct then this is all very confusing and not consistent with the official manual (which may be the case, I don't know).

A final question. How does one figure out the base damage of an ability/weapon? What we in A6 referred to as die size.

[Jerakeen]

Call the Storm actually does physical damage, weirdly.

 

On second thought, it's not that weird. If you think of a tornado or hurricane, the damage they do is entirely physical and has nothing to do with cold.

[Slawbug]

I did not actually read the manual. My list came from in-game testing and was verified where possible by examining the game scripts.

[Lokiron]

Sorry for nitpicking your wording, I just want to be sure of this.

 

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

All abilities gain bonus levels of damage from character level. Most abilities also gain bonus levels of damage from a stat and some also gain them from a weapon. The following combinations are possible

 

When you say that those combinations are possible you are actually quiet certain of them, right? Because if your are, I will trust your analysis blindly

 

 

Also, question gone unanswered:

 

How does one figure out the base damage of an ability/weapon? What we in A6 referred to as die size.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Lokiron

Also, question gone unanswered:

How does one figure out the base damage of an ability/weapon? What we in A6 referred to as die size.

This doesn't always work, but give the weapon to a class that can't use it. Then divide the maximum damage by the minimum damage to get the die size. This doesn't work for shaman/sorceress rod/staff damage.

The other way is just before leveling up record the weapon damage, then level up one level in a weapon skill to see the new damage. The increase in maximum damage is the die size.

Neither method works for abilities where you can't see weapon damage.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Lokiron

When you say that those combinations are possible you are actually quiet certain of them, right? Because if your are, I will trust your analysis blindly

Yes. By "possible", I just meant that those are the different combinations the game uses. They are all tested and confirmed as much as possible in the scripts.

[Death Knight]

Then thats that. I got stopped at the ogre. My character didnt have enough to beat him. I tried numerous times. Prally better off not playing avadon or avernum series as they are meant for parties.

 

Edit-sorry, this post was meant for another thread.

[Dominov]

Would it be fair to conclude from your analysis that SW is the best class and SO the worst? Or do enemy resistances and damage types complicate this too much?

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Dominov

Would it be fair to conclude from your analysis that SW is the best class and SO the worst? Or do enemy resistances and damage types complicate this too much?

Yes. Shadowwalker is great for damaging, but the Sorceress has the most different damage types possible and is highly resistant to magic induced damage. It depends upon the battle.

For example in fighting Zephyrine, a Sorceress is less likely to take damage compared to the other classes because focus mastery can allow for the absorption of almost all the cold damage, Blademasters and Shadowwalkers can both deal out the damage to destroy the stone guardians and survive the physical damage.

[Slawbug]

To clarify: "Yes" was an answer to the second question quoted, and not the first, I think.

 

Shadowwalkers are the best class under general circumstances. Sorceresses are the best class when you are facing mostly elemental damage types. Shamans are fine when you don't face lots of physical attacks, and Blademasters are fine when you don't face lots of magical attacks.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

To clarify: "Yes" was an answer to the second question quoted, and not the first, I think.

Shadowwalkers are the best class under general circumstances. Sorceresses are the best class when you are facing mostly elemental damage types. Shamans are fine when you don't face lots of physical attacks, and Blademasters are fine when you don't face lots of magical attacks.

This does mean that Shadowwalker is probably the best choice of class for the main character, because there's no point at which you'll wish you didn't have one in your group, and many points at which you'll be glad you did.

[Dantius]

But what would be the best class for a singleton? It would still be the SW, right?

[Randomizer]

From trying Blademaster, Shadowwalker, and Sorceress on torment difficulty, I found that more fights went easier for a Shadowwalker plus the lock picking skill makes a big difference in gaining experience at the start. It does balance out at the end.

 

The sorceress suffers from needing intelligence to deal out enough damage to counteract healing monsters. Blademaster and Shadowwalker are best for damage avoidance since dexterity helps them avoid most damage types and give a very high missile attack.

 

Certain fights favor each class. Angevine works best for physical damage dealing classes. Duke Gryfyn works best for a sorceress that can constantly change damage types without using items.

[Ichthyic]

"Her missile attack is nearly as good as her magical attack if you pump Dex"

 

no, it isn't. not even close for equivalent stat boosts int vs dex.

 

why?

 

there is no skill to train up the javelin with. while your primary magic attack gets more powerful as you train it. what's more, your primary magic attack is energy, which does more damage to most things than physical, and also has a nice cleave feature.

 

so don't go by that for deciding to go dex based shaman.

 

second, earthshatter...

 

leveled dex up to 40, the talent to 8, and it does about 110-540 damage.

 

that's great damage, but at a cost: 14 on the timer, which means you aren't going to be able to do it very often in combat without quaffing a lot of pots. The shaman does not have an absorb ability like the sorc does. Call storm does about 90-300 damage, but ALSO has a huge wait.

 

so, I can't really recommend the shaman dex build too much, unless you really do it for defense (since they are so weak to physical), and primarily use them as a drake summoner and weak ranged attacker.

 

now Drakes actually do decent damage. their fire breath only has a 2 turn wait on it, so you can do it quite often, and it does about 90-140 damage and will hit major bosses, even Redbeard (unlike the hellhound). Plus, even bosses have a tough time putting a drake down quick; they have a ton of hitpoints. cast spines on your pet and it becomes another way for your pet to deal damage.

 

so, since it doesn't rely on int, you can indeed build a decent summoner using mostly dex, and toss out the occasional low level earthquake (you get the skill from a hat) or storm (you get enough points with equipment bonuses to get this and still have drake) to keep the baddies away from you. combined, the damage of your drake and your javelin is decent, if not overwhelming, and you can play war of attrition with all the healing abilities.

 

all that said though, it would be a tough class to solo with I think. Or at least very slow and irritating.

 

Shadowalker dex build is most definitely the hands down winner for solo build. good up close, good at range, good defense, good specials (even 3 points in shadowstep is very useful). the only downside is limited damage types (acid basically being the only elemental damage), but then there are the scarabs to make up for that... put that cone of cold one on your SW, and you're set. You only need about 20 strength, total, including boosts from gear, for the times you want to hit something melee, which means you should be able to get your dex with gear over 36 by the time you hit lvl 30. use the bonecleaver shield when you get it, and watch the razordisk crits pile up.

 

blademaster dex build solo would actually surpass SW in damage output, but only when maxed out and only when not facing magic/mental based attackers.

 

 

another note: backstab works for ranged specials too! so get in there and toss that lightning pot from point blank range if there is an ally standing next to your target. you'll double the damage most likely on the backstab bonus. even works for magic missile scarabs, so long as they are single target ranged. does not work for razordisk attacks, of course.