Unflappable Drayk John S Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 A Comparison of Three Dialogue Systems: ---- 1) So, yeah. There's these goblins and they're hiding in some sort of stereotypical abandoned mine, would you go slaughter them without remorse? The reward would be great. Goblins? Mine? Reward? 2) So, yeah. There's these goblins and they're hiding in some sort of stereotypical abandoned mine, would you go slaughter them without remorse? The reward would be great. Can you tell me more about the Goblins? Why is the mine abandoned? What sort of a reward would there be? 3) So, yeah. There's these goblins and they're hiding in some sort of stereotypical abandoned mine, would you go slaughter them without remorse? The reward would be great. Can you tell me more about the Goblins? Goblins? Why is the mine abandoned? Mine? What sort of a reward would there be? Reward? ----- The keyword system is not a good approximation of natural language, can cause people to miss essential details (though not in Nethergate), and might lower your sperm count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Kelandon Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Quote: Originally written by The][Editbreaker:The keyword system is not a good approximation of natural language, can cause people to miss essential details (though not in Nethergate), and might lower your sperm count. It does allow people to ask semi-original questions, though. I came to appreciate (and be a little frustrated with) the Exile dialogue system in the BoE scenario The Election, which could not work nearly as well in an Avernum game, because it relies partly on the player guessing what the appropriate response is. You have to come up with arguments (which was the cool part) and figure out the keywords for those arguments (which was the annoying part). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Erika Maroonmark Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 There's also the "what kind of reward would there be?" vs. "can I have my reward now?" thing, which would require two keywords and thus be confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Not necessarily. Someone who is asking for a reward wouldn't be asking what the reward is any longer. So there could be one keyword and different SDFs to determine what text was displayed. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Thralni Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Or you are just given the reward as soon as you tell the man that you did his quest, and that way won't even have to ask for a reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Gh0$T 0f 5tArM@N Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 all your nodes are belong to look name job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Ghost of Starman, stop. Just stop. You've been officially warned by a mod to stop the "all your base" joke. What makes you think that it's a good idea to continue? If this wonderful topic gets locked due to spam, Dikiyoba will be sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Gh0$T 0f 5tArM@N Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I thought my new base jokes were creative I will stop, I guess. but I liked them besides there are worse spamers here than me diknyoba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Lancer Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I am just hoping that Jeff fixes that Windows XP taskbar issue in the reworked version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Fort Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I think the newer dialogue system is much better than the old one, primarily because it so much more precise. There is no need to worry about a single keyword meaning several things or taking things out of context. However, I do wish there were an option in all conversations to bring up a text match box so that riddles can be a little more streamlined. The worst possible way to do riddles was of course in A3 where Jeff simply gave the answers in the options. I think the big question is whether this hint of his will really come to fruition. I mean, Nethergate has been left to fare on its own for years, so what has changed now for active focus to be brought back to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Quote: Originally written by Garrison:The worst possible way to do riddles was of course in A3 where Jeff simply gave the answers in the options. Jeff did this for a reason; apparently, he got more requests for help about the riddles, even the really easy ones, than about any other single part of the Exile series. As a result, there probably won't be too many riddles in any of his future games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Lancer Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Riddles/Puzzles only really belong in adventure games or board games anyway, not in RPGs. It is much more believable that an archmage would have powerful wards, traps and/or competent guardians to protect his possessions instead of relying on some silly floor puzzle or guessing game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 Good puzzles can be integrated meaningfully. While the lasers seemed a bit out of place in Avernum on the whole, moving around mirrors to play with lasers actually made a fair amount of sense. That kind of puzzle works just fine. Riddles work only rarely, but I wouldn't want to categorically reject them. —Alorael, who in fact wishes the crystal in the Golem Factory were indestructible except for laser beams. Make people think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Lancer Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 If the given context calls for a puzzle and it makes sense to do so (meaning it wouldn't be more logical just to have a clever trap or ward instead to serve the same purpose), then I have no problem with it. When puzzles and riddles are put into games randomly (just because..) is when I have a problem with it. In most cases riddles and the like feel like filler and out of context most of the time. The mirror puzzles in Avernum are actually a good example of what I am getting at. As you said they felt out of context for the fantasy setting for one. Secondly, moving those mirrors around while dodging those lasers to get them in their correct positions turned out to be quite tedious and frustrating..Anything but fun which defeats the purpose of a game anyways... Logically, it would make much more sense that there would be a control panel on the sources themselves that would allow the lasers to be turned off so that the mirrors could be moved around safely. After they are in position, the lasers can be turned on again. But it so happens conveniently you can't do that.. Thought it doesn't make much sense why you couldn't aside from thinking that it would make a "good" puzzle (although I didn't think so). I mean , does it make much sense that the vahnatai would be moving their own mirrors around in those precarious conditions? The problem with many puzzles in RPGs is that designers make them solely to give the player a challenge, with no consideration as to how reasonable the puzzle is given the context and setting. Who knows why? If more puzzles were made that would fulfill the dual-purpose of being believable as well as challenging then I wouldn't have as much problem with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast VCH Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 Riddles, puzzels ,BAHH! I hate them even in NWN games I just look for the answers online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 I always like the riddles and puzzles in Exile. I though the tests in Avernum 2 where the intelligence was replaced with patience was a weak point. Pushing around a crate where it didn't fall off the ledges when it was supposed to was a flaw. The Nethergate dialog method is tedious in going through all the choices to be sure you don't miss some information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Drakefyre Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 The best riddles in Exile III came from the gremlins in the dryad grove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Micawber Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 I enjoyed the riddles, but I can understand why Jeff has stopped doing them. Someone once woke me by phoning in the middle of the night to ask for help with one of the Exile II riddles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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