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A6 - Relative Power & Optimization


Slarti

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So purely based on my numerical analyses, I've come to a few conclusions. I feel good about these, but obviously I'd like to see if they line up with the experiences of people who've actually played the game.

 

1) Impact of Dual Wielding = HUGE. With moderate investments in DW and QA skills (about 33sp in DW and 30sp in QA) you multiply 1-weapon base damage by about 3. But more importantly, you get a return of about 4.5 damage per attack for every point you put in Str/Melee/Blademaster. This is a much higher return than we ever got to see in A4 or A5 for any kind of attack. The next highest return is 3.5 for a late game mage spell, 3.0 for mid-game spells and Smite, and about 2.8 for halberds. However, the high numbers for spells are misleading because it costs more to invest in those skills, moreso now that Magery is gone. They don't have the side benefits that Blademaster does. And, while you don't have DW or QA to invest in, you do need to pay your respects to Int and Magical Efficiency. This is a huge change. Suddenly, it's actually worthwhile to invest in physical attack skills!

 

The Cloaks help this case. They give a HUGE damage boost of +50%, but can only affect one type of attack. Obviously, Cloak of Blades is the most effective one to use, and at that point, you fighters are doing 6.25 per level, about twice what the spellcasters can do.

 

2) Bows, meanwhile, are stuck with a maximum return of 1.5 damage per point invested... okay, 1.8 for the Heartstriker. LAME. Bows are now totally useless as primary weapons, and not even that amazing as backups for Nephil spellcasters. Gone are the bow-happy days of A4.

 

3) Magic can't quite keep up with weapons but it should be able to come close. The best offensive build would be a DT/PS priest with Smite and Divine Fire along with some serious Magical Efficiency. You can go to town with spells and have plenty of healing ability, too.

 

4) Mage Spells seem better suited to a support role. However, my one question is if pumping spell skill and abusing Daze and Strong Daze is doable. If so, you can essentially make a G5-style Sorceress party.

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1)I agree that Dual Wielding is huge - I just finished the first set of Castle main quests, and my dual wielding fighter has kicked some serious ass.

 

2) My spellcasters are actually very powerful, because at level 9, with items, my mage has a Spellcraft of 11. This is mostly due to items, but his spells do massive damage.

 

3) Thanks in large part to the blessings found in Dharmon, my Slith pole fighter has maxed out Battle Disciplines already, and with a Pole Weapon skill of 11, he's really good with a long stick.

 

4) I completely agree with you on bows - it's no longer optimal to have a dedicated archer.

 

More as I get further in...

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With items and DT a spellcaster can get 50+ spell levels (30+ spellcraft and 17-18 in spell type, 3+ with individual spell) in the primary spell area (mage or priest). Some spells can reach 8 levels like arcane blow.

 

Spellcasters can with cloak of arcane and battle frenzy in the last part of the game easily do a lot of damage past armor/resistances especially with area effect spells doing 100+ per target or smite for 200+.

 

The main problem with weapons near the end is sliths and other monsters have near 50% physical resistace to damage. Against them spells are the better option with fighters helping out and acting as meat shields.

 

I wished I'd have know that DW skill helped that much.

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I second what Random said about magic being very useful in the late game (and throughout, really). Those enemy sliths have some truly nasty hit points and resistances, but Smite and Icy Rain can be very effective at whittling away at the plethora of reptilian foes. Someone pointed out to Jeff that the priest has only fire as upper level attack ability, so changed Divine Retribution to doing magic damage instead of fire damage, which I agree with being a good change, considering all the sliths you fight. Having a traditional party strong in melee/pole as well as magic is going to give the best all-around results for dealing with everything in this game. I also find it the most fun to have a party with all types represented, so kudos to Jeff for bringing balance back to the Force.

 

Having nephil spellcasters who use archery for physical damage where optimal, or to conserve spell energy, is still fairly useful. Between all the free levels of Bows and being able to train three levels as well, my nephil mage was doing some decent damage by bow all along, and you get the Heartstriker early enough this time to enjoy it for a good while. But, it is true, a dedicated archer will never be very satisfactory as a primary means of attack, and too bad, that.

 

-S-

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Thanks for your comments, particularly Synergy's. I ended up going through the scripts to look at creature resistances.

 

The majority of creature groups have no physical resistance and only scattered resistance to the magical attack types.

 

The following creature groups have lots of resistance to Magic, Fire AND Ice, and either no physical resistance or substantially less of it:

Magi, Priests, Demons, Haakai, Gazers, Eyebeasts, Crystal Souls, Altered Giants, Doomguards

 

The following creature groups have weak physical resistance (20-30%) and only scattered magical resistances:

Vahnatai, Hellhounds, Turrets, Fungi, Drakes, Dragons, Wolves, Giant Lizards, Ogres, Cave Giants, Sentinels, Stoneworms

 

The following creature groups have stronger physical resistance (40-50%) and only scattered magical resistances:

Rockhounds, Chitrachs, Bats, Slimes, certain Wyrmkin, Shamblers

 

Finally, Golems and Pylons have substantial resistance to physical attacks as well as to most magical attacks. Both are relatively weak to energy attacks, but those are harder for priests in particular to access.

 

I did not look as closely at unique enemies that set their own resistances. However, there seem to be very few that set physical resistance unless they set resistance to all the elements as well.

 

Finally, the following enemy groups have mental resistance (all have at least 50%):

Magi, Priests, Gazers, Eyebeasts, Crystal Souls, Undead, Black Shades, Vahnatai, Drakes, Dragons, Cave Giants (but not Altered Giants), Golems, Shamblers, Pylons

 

In conclusion, there are a handful of enemies where relying on physical attacks is a handicap, but not tons of them (and sliths are not among them). And daze and charm attacks ought to be effective against most but not all creatures with enough spell power, unless the system is seriously different from G5, which I doubt.

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What does all of this mean as far as party construction goes? The best pure single target damage comes from melee weapons, and it ramps up quickly enough that it actually is worth being dedicated to that, for once. Defensive builds are probably not any weaker than in A5, though I haven't tested Parry or Riposte. Bows are still not important. Both mage and priest spells are viable -- either just for support, or as an all-out build utilizing Magical Efficiency to cast lots of expensive AoE spells.

 

So I have two party ideas in mind.

 

Party 1:

Nephil DT EW Dual Wielder

Nephil DT EW Dual Wielder

Nephil DT PS Priest

Slith DT NM Wizard

 

The priest gets a focus on Magical Efficiency for endless uses of Smite & Divine Fire.

 

The wizard gets more emphasis on spell skill to boost daze spells, and also gets a bit of investment into QA for halberd use.

 

The idea is that you might as well make somebody a pole-toting slith, but it shouldn't be a primary fighter, who would then do less damage than a dual-wielder.

 

Tool Use can go on anyone -- probably the second fighter.

 

Party 2:

Slith DT EW Tank

Nephil DT PS Priest

Nephil DT PS Priest

Nephil DT NM Mage

 

The tank takes advantage of the skill bug to get Parry at the game's start, then builds up Blademaster to get to Riposte. The tank gets all knowledge brews and ignores distractions like Quick Action.

 

The spellcasters hide behind the tank and sling spells. The mage again focuses more on spell power to ensure good dazes, while the priests focus more on Magical Efficiency to ensure endless spells. One of them should take Tool Use.

 

Any comments from you people who've actually played more?

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Parry and Riposte seem to be exactly the same as in A5. They can be useful for a defensive build meatshield that's sent out to engage scripted monsters with huge damage.

 

I tend to have each spellcaster have some spells from the other type just because daze, smite, unshackle mind and control foe are so useful.

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Originally Posted By: Metamorphose to the Foremost
Party 2:
Slith DT EW Tank
Nephil DT PS Priest
Nephil DT PS Priest
Nephil DT NM Mage

The tank takes advantage of the skill bug to get Parry at the game's start, then builds up Blademaster to get to Riposte. The tank gets all knowledge brews and ignores distractions like Quick Action.

The spellcasters hide behind the tank and sling spells. The mage again focuses more on spell power to ensure good dazes, while the priests focus more on Magical Efficiency to ensure endless spells. One of them should take Tool Use.

Any comments from you people who've actually played more?


This was, more or less, my party in A5. It worked very well most of the time, but there were a few battles where enemies came at me from all directions and one tank had trouble doing all the work. Spellcasters still need endurance for area attacks and the occasional enemy that slips past.

I wouldn't worry too much about making the tank tanky enough, as long as you feed him knowledge brews: mine was the party's Tool User and still managed to have Riposte and all battle disciplines after Muck, and Riposte is even easier to get in A6.

My A6 party is a slith pole user/tool user/tank, a nephil dual-wielder/secondary tank, a nephil priest/archer and a nephil mage/priest. I may give the dual-wielder a bit of Thrown Weapons skill just for the hell of it; even if I rarely use it, it'll at least help unlock battle disciplines. I haven't even cleared the demo area yet, but we'll see how it goes.
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I'm trying a very similar party, except the dual-wielder is the tool user (probably a poor idea, but I'm stuck with my investment) and my first caster is a mage/priest. So far so good (on Normal, anyway); I haven't hit anything in the demo area that was too tough and that wasn't clearly supposed to be way out of my league (a certain purchased mine one-shotted me handily).

 

—Alorael, who had to give up on his refusal to buy gear, though. There just aren't any spears dropped in the early game, and sooner or later the slith with a sword becomes a liability.

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Yes, it's true. There is no easy spear to acquire at the start. The soonest you can score one without buying it, is to finish the Deep Storage quest for Sgt. Nichol and then ask Lt. Kaitlyn for supplies. She will have a box opened for you in the barracks, which contains a bronze spear.

 

Or if you have Tool Use 8 already (yeah, right), you can extract a steel spear from a crypt in the Memorial Grounds.

 

Either way, you're going to want one before you go face Lord Trinket if you have a pole fighter.

 

After that you can upgrade to an iron spear which you will find in a crate in the SW area of the upper level of The Castle. Slith spears can be stolen from Gnass, once you have access.

 

-S-

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My pole user is currently running around with the steel spear from Memorial Grounds, which should be decent enough until he gets a halberd. My dual-wielder has the Fine Cleaver from the goblin mine and the waveblade from the Castle. There's really no shortage of decent weapons of either type early on.

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That steel spear was the first I found, although I caved and bought one from somewhere (right outside the Castle?) after getting past Lord Trinket with a sword. I completely missed the bronze spear; it would have helped.

 

—Alorael, who just finds it a bit frustrating that he can deck out his entire party with swords that aren't half bad but has to make do with a couple of spears. Chalk up another point for dual wielding in the early game!

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