A6 - Trainers

[Slawbug]

UPDATE: Prices in parentheses are GP spent per skill point saved for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trainings. Also, Gnass prices are corrected.

 

Gnass

Seleeass

700 - Arcane Lore (700, 770, 420)

500 - Nature Lore (500, 550, 300)

 

Fissure Post

Reginaldo

1700 - Spellcraft (TOM is cheaper)

2040 - Magical Efficiency (TOM is cheaper)

 

Fort Remote

Sergeant Kaye

1700 - Dual Wielding (850, 935, 680)

1530 - Pole Weapons (383, 421, 367)

1360 - Parry (453, 499, 408)

2040 - Lethal Blow (510, 561, 490)

 

Eastern Great Cave

Taddeo

900 - Melee Weapons (225, 248, 216)

700 - Anatomy (175, 193, 168)

700 - Gymnastics (Duvno is cheaper)

700 - Sharpshooter (175, 193, 168)

 

Tower of Magi

Agass-Ess

840 - Arcane Lore (Gnass is cheaper)

1200 - Spellcraft (400, 440, 360)

1440 - Magical Efficiency (480, 528, 432)

 

Fort Duvno

Stuart

900 - Mage Spells (180, 198, 180)

420 - Gymnastics (105, 116, 101)

600 - Resistance (120, 132, 120)

[Slawbug]

Pleasantly, most of the skills we'd normally like to train early either have early trainers (Melee Weapons, Pole Weapons, Spellcraft, the Lore skills) or no trainers at all (Str, Dex, Int, End, Priest Spells, Bows, Quick Action, Tool Use).

 

The only real exception is Mage Spells... an SP-expensive skill that will provide great savings in skill points if you can wait for it. I don't know how far in Duvno is, but I think that might be doable. A Natural Mage will start with Daze anyway.

 

I'm starting to wonder if a mainly-melee party is the way to go. 4 dual wielders, or maybe 3 and 1 slith, 1 each with some extra defensive skills, Tool Use, Mage Spells and Priest Spells. The plethora of readily available (and relatively cheap) training in the various advanced combat skills helps this, and what really makes it attractive is Cloak of Blades -- which can't be combined with Cloak of the Arcane.

[Randomizer]

Gnass,Tower Colony, and Fort Duvno trainers lower prices after doing a quest for them.

 

Fort Remote requires that you reach a certain rank before training after the second group of aid cities quests.

 

Fort Duvno is fairly late in the game so Resistance is the only really usable training for everyone.

 

What isn't shown is that the priest in Dharmon provides a blessing for the entire party. At 3000 for each you can get a level once for each of:

 

Melee Weapons

Pole Weapons

Missle and Thrown Weapons

Spellcraft

 

A real bargain and early in the game. Also it doesn't count against using a trainer or affect skill point cost.

[BrownieMix]

For reals? Holy cow! I thought it was a scam - that's where my money is going for the foreseeable future!

[Slawbug]

Interestingly, that appears to be the only other stat-boosting in the game, aside from basins.

[Randomizer]

BASINS

 

Insight (Experience)

-Fort Spire

-Oculus Cult

-Marauder's Hideout

-Eastern Gallery (south of Cotra)

-Breeding Tunnels (east)

-Near Fort Monastery (south of the Fort)

-Melanchion's Keep

 

Fort Duvno - Hardiness +1

Eastern Gallery (north of Fort Dranlon) - First Aid +1

Tenevra - Pathfinder +1

Near Formello East - Gymnastics +1

Giant Lands (north of Grindstone) - Magical Efficiency +1

Giant Lands (Scuttler Lair) - Mass Healing +1, Lightning Spray +1

Melanchion's Keep

- 3rd Quest - Lethal Blow +1

- 4th Quest - Riposte +1

-Treasury - Dexterity +1, Strength +1, Intelligence +1, Endurance +1

[SevenMass]

HMM

This can't be right, I have to pay 700 and 500 for the first pt of AL and NL. (and it goes up for the next two)

 

And before I did his quest it was over 1000.

 

How do you get the 420 and 300?

[Randomizer]

Doing the quest for the Gnass trainer really lowers the cost. Same with some other trainers that have quests.

[SevenMass]

Like I said, It was over 1000 gold before the quest, and 700 / 500 after the quest. But still not the 420 and 300 mentioned in the OP.

 

So yes, the quest does lower the cost, I already knew that, but it doesn't address my point.

[malvo]

Just wanted to add that my experience, and the prices I see in Gnass both before and after the quest are the same as SevenMass. I want the cheaper training as mentioned above: but does it really exist?

[Randomizer]

I got the cheaper prices during testing. Did you do Seleeass' quest for the Dragon Scrolls? I'll be doing that area soon and see for myself.

[SevenMass]

Oh, You mean he has a second quest?

 

The only quest I know off is that he wants you to retrieve the scrolls the chief's son took with him on his little trip. (can be completed while still in the demo)

[malvo]

Ok, I think I see what's going on, maybe. First of all I did both Gnass quests: 1) return the chief's errant son, and 2) so too the priest's scrolls. But, and I assume it's a big but, before doing those quests I bought a just few levels of arcane and nature lore in the party just b/c I'm a crazy person and I can't resist clicking on the skill things when the cost is low: "It only costs a skill point?? Such a deal! Etc." Thus for each of my characters I see a range of prices, all presumably dependent on how many (if few) skill points each has when I turn up to shop. Oops!

[SevenMass]

In reply to the above post:

 

My character has 0 pt in NL, he did both the chiefs son quest, and the return the scrolls quest and he still pays 500 gold for NL, 550 for the next point.

 

SO that still doesn't address the 300 gold the OP claims.

[Slawbug]

You are correct, and have uncovered an error of mine. A6, as with every SW game since Exile 3, has set prices for every item and ability and a single integer "modifier" that determines how much an individual merchant raises or lowers prices from the default. For merchants whose prices can change, sometimes there are entirely different shop calls in the script, and sometimes a variable is used to represent the price modifier. Since I did my research by copy-and-pasting shop calls into the first zone of the game, the value for this variable was left at its default -- 0, extremely cheap -- while it is normally set to 5, or to 2 if you've done the quests.

 

I have re-checked the scripts and of the A6 trainers, this only applies to Seleass. Thanks SevenMass!

[Randomizer]

Okay, I just played through that area. The price range was pretty average for that place after the quest, but Jeff has adjusted the prices upward from what they were in beta testing. During my earlier games it was at the extemely cheap price even though it said pretty average.

[Slawbug]

Bump - 1st post is updated with new info.

 

So Dual Wielding and Arcane Lore are the worst values of all, followed at a distance by Nature Lore. (I'm not including Lethal Blow since its unlock requirements are so steep.)

[Slawbug]

MAJOR strategy update:

 

I went through and calculated the exchange rate for skribbane, and it throws a wrench into things.

 

If we assume a party of 4 45% experience penalty Nephils or Sliths (DT/EW, DT/NM or DT/PS), you need on the order of 6200 raw XP (pre-penalty) for everyone to get a level up. (Possibly closer to 6400 depending on Jeff's math.) That translates to selling about 310 skribbane. You can buy for 30 and sell for 20, so that means that you can trade approximately 3100 GP (and a kazillion mouse clicks) to get everyone a level up. That means 3100 GP for 20 skill points, or 155 gold per skill point.

 

That price is significantly better than the deal most trainers offer!

 

This does not mean trainers are completely useless. Their main advantage is that you get to use their skills right away, whereas to get the full benefit of the skribbane skill points you have to wait till late in the game.

 

Additionally, if you forego trainers entirely and plunk tens of thousands of GP into skribbane XP, I suspect it is possible to encounter the level cap (level 61), maybe even before the end of the game.

 

However, foregoing expensive trainers doesn't make you lose out on anything since there are still some cheap trainers you can plug that GP into. In particular, Taddeo is awesome. And of course, foregoing trainers gives you the benefit that you don't have to hold off on skills you'd rather take earlier, like Spellcraft or Magical Efficiency.

 

This is a VERY POSITIVE THING for min-maxing, because it means you don't have to do so much circus contortionism! Really the only skill worth holding off on that you really need early is Melee Weapons. HOORAY!!!!!

[Slawbug]

The blessings from the priest in Dharmon still look good under this view, or at least the first three do: everybody wants them so they can unlock battle disciplines, they are priced about adequately for the 16 skill points they are worth if you never invest in those skills, but since you are likely to, they become bargains.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Lovebound Geas

That price is significantly better than the deal most trainers offer!

And of course, extra levels mean more HP and spell energy, too, so the skill point comparison actually underestimates how useful they are.

Man, now I really wish I hadn't killed that dealer.

[Slawbug]

Not to mention extra points from traits. An extra 10 levels for a DT EW character translates to 3-4 Blademaster, 1-2 Parry, and 2-3 Sharpshooter and Spellcraft.

[Alorael at Large]

So you don't really need to worry about saving all the skribbane you find. You can take advantage of the dealer's poor understanding of economics and/or the existence and value of experience!

 

—Alorael, who will change his intentions for his playthrough. This is the kind of minimal effort and minimal thinking min-maxing he can really get behind. Thanks, Slarty! (Confession: Taking advantage of this trick will probably turn into cheating to add experience and remove gold to save a whole lot of clicking.)

[VCH]

I kinda wish I hadn't killed the two main dealers too. I just found out how powerful skribbane is when it allowed me to take the demon out guarding the onyx scepter.

 

Not to mention the whole XP gain bit.

[Slawbug]

Hahaha, you're right about that last bit Alorael.

[Alorael at Large]

I have that same problem with a lot of grinding, though. "I could let this monster respawn and kill it five hundred times. Doing so would take days, but there is no appreciable risk of it failing. I will therefore instead add an equivalent amount of experience to save myself the grinding." Others believe that this is cheating, as grinding is an integral part of the gameplay. I can't disagree, but I can and will cheat anyway.

 

—Alorael, whose path-independent gameplay approach sometimes ruins entire games, though. MMORPGs tend to lose a lot of their appeal. Progress Quest, strangely, gains more.

[Slawbug]

*nod nod*

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: ISO Uniqueness

Others believe that this is cheating, as grinding is an integral part of the gameplay. I can't disagree, but I can and will cheat anyway.

I wouldn't say an integral part of gameplay, so much as an integral part of game balance. As in, Jeff thinks, "Okay, I really want to put this re-spawning monster there. But somebody could go kill it 500 times and get some extra levels. Aw, it'll be fine -- even the most insane powergamer isn't going to spend the time to come back and kill it 500 times."

But, hey, nothing wrong with a little cheating. That's what the editor's there for, after all. Heck, in some games reloading from a saved game is considered cheating, but I've never heard of anyone even trying that with one of the Avernum games.

[jlsgaladriel]

Originally Posted By: alorael

Others believe that this is cheating, as grinding is an integral part of the gameplay. I can't disagree, but I can and will cheat anyway.

Bah, since it's not competitive gaming, only what you enjoy is integral to the gameplay.

I use similar reasoning, just not with spawns. I never use cheats when actually in a battle or trapped in a dungeon, but if I'm in a position where I *could* walk back to the nearest town to heal and gain energy, I have no qualms about cheating to restore them. It doesn't take away from the challenge of the thing, instead, it lets me spend *more* time on the fun challenging parts!

[Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs]

I call it insta-grinding. I turned in skribbane, but not before hacking my gold to a large sum and buying as much as possible, since - I figure - there are enough enemies out there that I could have accumulated the gold (and a little xp) by grinding anyway.

 

Sadly, 12000 gold buys you barely a level of xp for your party. So, I got impatient and ended up just using the editor to raise my stats. Unfortunately, that is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from raising your level a few times (skills are so expensive, I would have had to rise MANY levels).

 

In the end, I've clearly cheated, and I wish the editor would let me lower my stats again. Maybe I'll have to switch to Torment.

[Alorael at Large]

No, no, no. You can't just figure that there are enough enemies and there is enough gold. You must rigorously prove it and cause the gold (or equivalent loot) to vanish. Once there, the actual accomplishment of tasks may become, shall we say, an exercise for the reader.

 

—Alorael, who actually tries to limit his cheating to times when he thinks he would, in fact, grind (or perform some other less than enthralling) even though he would find it somewhere between boring and miserable. If he wouldn't actually do it, it has sufficient barriers. He also tends not to do this in Avernum, as the games require little or no meaningless grinding.

[Slawbug]

*nod nod*

[Talias]

Question; when you use a trainer, can you not train in what it is they offer if you've spent skill points in it multiple times before finding them?

[Randomizer]

The trainers will not train you above having skill level 3 in a skill that they train.

 

For example if you have melee weapons of 1 from using skill points, then you can only train for two more levels.

 

If you have skill levels from racial traits, experience penalty traits, the priest in Dharmon, or items, then these do not count against trained levels.

[Talias]

...I highly dislike this. But thank you for the answer.

 

On to another question; I'm trying a play-through with a warrior with dual-wield and a cat-thingy mage with bow as a back up weapon; how could I train these two and play-through the game to get the best results with training? Is being able to train at all using these trainers even important?

[Lilith]

Most of the trainers you'd actually want to use are for skills you wouldn't be raising until later in the game anyway, like Lethal Blow. Trainers are useful, but not essential.

[Talias]

Thanks...I'm still upset about how the training system works, although I've tried every spiderweb game at least once, and can't say it's ever been any different. Don't know what I was thinking this time around.

 

Edit: To the post below mine, I see what I can do, and it doesn't have to be me trying to train all three times I can. Even only training nature lore up to two on both my characters means I can buy two levels overall. However; when is magic lore first useful (can I hold out completly on that till the trainer?) Whats the req for the icy rain(?) spell book in the goblin lair? That might mess me up. Oh well.

[Lilith]

There's a list of trainers in the first post of this thread; the numbers are the cost in gold per skill point. Basically the skills with lower numbers are the ones worth holding off on raising until you get to the trainer. This may help you in building your party.

[Randomizer]

The Icy Rain spellbook needs Arcane Lore 3 and it's cheaper to spread it out among the party. Also the training cost goes down after doing the quests for Gnass to the Cultists southeast of the Castle.

 

You are better off getting some nature lore to open up the caches in the Demo area for some more money. Then after you do two aid city quests you can pass through Almaria to Taddeo the trainer for Melee Weapons for swords and Sharpshooter for those using bows and missle weapons.

[Talias]

Another quick question. I made custom characters at the start, do initial invesment in points in a skill before the game starts count towards not being able to train?

[Slawbug]

Yup.

[Talias]

Good, or else I'd be majorly confused.

[Dominov]

Wait wait, do skills on premade characters count against trainability?

[Slawbug]

Yes, there's nothing special about their skills -- they are treated just as if you added them yourself.

[Adronson]

It appears the skribbane exploit referenced above does NOT work for the Windows version.

[Dikiyoba]

Unfortunately, yes. You can only receive a certain amount of experience from selling skribbane on the Windows version.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Jerakeen]

Same for the current Mac version.

[Slawbug]

Really? That's unfortunate. Because this was an exploit that actually made the game MORE balanced and less annoying -- very unusual for an exploit!

[Earth]

of course it was fixed cause every1 exploited it.

[dbouya]

I tried to delete this post and failed.... that's how

[Txgangsta]

I just read this thread and realize I have the A6 from November =) I get to exploit and you don't =p

 

Note: I don't have the full version of A6 yet, so I shouldn't brag too much.