A6 - Trait Effects

[Slawbug]

Here are lists of the bonuses of each race and each advantage. For an explanation of the four rates at which stats can grow, see below.

 

RACES

 

Human: Nothing.

 

Nephil:

- Bows (Fair)

- Thrown Weapons (Fair)

- Gymnastics (Slow)

 

Slithzerikai:

- Pole Weapons (Fair)

- 20% Fire/Poison/Acid Resistance (Never Grows)

- 10% Bonus to HP (Grows with HP)

 

 

ADVANTAGES:

 

Good Constitution:

- 4% Armor (Never Grows)

- 4% Hostile Effect Resistance (Never Grows)

- 30% Poison/Acid Resistance (Never Grows)

 

Thick Skin:

- 10% Armor (Never Grows)

 

Fast on Feet:

- 50% chance every round of getting +1 bonus AP (Never Grows)

- 10% bonus evasion (haven't tested, was true in A4-5, need to confirm)

 

Ambidextrous:

- Dual Wielding (Good)

 

Nimble Fingers:

- Tool Use (Good)

- First Aid (Slow)

 

Deadeye:

- Sharpshooter (Good)

 

Natural Mage:

- Mage Spells (Good)

- Magical Efficiency (Slow)

- Can cast mage spells in encumbering armor (more details needed)

 

Pure Spirit:

- Priest Spells (Good)

- Magical Efficiency (Good)

 

Elite Warrior:

- Blademaster (Fair)

- Parry (Fair)

- Encumbrance bonus equal to (5 + Level)

 

Divinely Touched:

- Blademaster (Best)

- Sharpshooter (Best)

- Spellcraft (Best)

- 20% Armor (Never Grows)

 

 

GROWTH RATES

 

Slow: +1, and an additional +1 at levels 10, 20, 30, ...

Fair: +2, and an additional +1 at levels 8, 16, 24, ...

Good: +2, and an additional +1 at levels 6, 12, 18, ...

Best: +1, and an additional +1 at levels 4, 8, 12, ...

 

To be honest, there is not a whole lot of distinction between Fair, Good, and Best until you reach middle to high levels. Slow provides a noticeably weaker bonus at most levels. To demonstrate:

 

Code:

LEVEL   SLOW  FAIR  GOOD  BEST  1      +1    +2    +2    +1  8      +1    +3    +3    +3 16      +2    +4    +4    +5 24      +3    +5    +6    +7 32      +4    +6    +7    +9 40      +5    +7    +8   +11 48      +5    +8   +10   +13 56      +6    +9   +11   +15 max     +7    +9   +12   +!6

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Slartucker

Thick Skin:
- 10% Armor (Never Grows)

Why does this even exist?

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

Because it has always existed.

 

—Alorael, who can't understand why most traits exist except to trap the new and unlearned.

[Lilith]

I think the effect of Ambidextrous and Dual Wielding skill on the damage penalty is more worth investigating than the effect on the hit penalty: even at low levels, the hit penalty is mostly negligible. At level 1, my dual-wielding fighter is already hitting most things at 90% or above even when not blessed.

 

I doubt Ambidextrous makes so much of a difference to be worth taking over Elite Warrior or Divinely Touched, but if it means, say, 20% more damage, then it's kind of tempting.

[Randomizer]

Natural Mage still seems to have the +20% chance to hit affecting how much bulky armor you can wear and still cast mage spells.

 

Also Jeff left in that items that improve your chance to hit cancel out items that worsen your chance to hit.

[Slawbug]

Whoops, my bad. Not sure how I missde this -- Ambidextrous just gives you Dual Wielding growth (Good).

[VCH]

What growth rate (for blademaster) do I get if I have both Divinely touched and Elite warrior?

[Lilith]

All bonuses to the same stat from different special skills are additive, so you get both bonuses put together.

[Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs]

1. Why do many players choose Nephilim? Do such players use bows often?

 

2. On a separate note, is it true that most stat gains (that grow with level) from trait/race effects are more valuable than picking a human and using skill points from earlier leveling? Is this true for practically any type of character: dedicated mage, mage/priest, dedicated melee or pole user, fighter/priest, etc?

 

3. If I run a dual-wield priest, slith spear tank, and dedicated mage, which races/traits should I choose?

I thought

A. DW Human priest w/ ambidex. & divinely touched

B. Slith w Elite Warrior

C. Nephil Mage w Natural Mage

but now I'm wondering if I should have chosen Elite Warrior for my human. Any other suggestions, and is there any reason to skip traits on Normal that one would choose on Torment?

 

4. If I'm not playing a singleton, do I get much benefit in XP when I drop from a four to three-player party? Normal mode is easy enough, I'm sure, so would I have much need for a fourth character? Should I make my dual-wield human a dedicated fighter and make my priest role fulfilled by a fourth character?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: A Presumptuous Gallivanter

1. Why do many players choose Nephilim? Do such players use bows often?

Bows are a pretty good secondary weapon for almost any character. There are some monsters that you can't or don't want to get into melee with, and sometimes you want to conserve spell points. They don't do as much damage as other attack types, but there isn't much reason not to have them on hand. Also, all those free points of Bows and Thrown Weapons count toward unlocking battle disciplines.

Quote:

2. On a separate note, is it true that most stat gains (that grow with level) from trait/race effects are more valuable than picking a human and using skill points from earlier leveling? Is this true for practically any type of character: dedicated mage, mage/priest, dedicated melee or pole user, fighter/priest, etc?

Pretty much, yeah. The thing is, the difference between a 0% experience penalty and a 45% experience penalty is about 5-6 levels by the end of the game. That's 30 skill points. Now, remember that skill costs increase as the skills themselves increase. By the endgame, 30 skill points buys you maybe 5 points in one of your favourite skills, whereas the stat bonuses from traits will give you 5 or more free points in a whole bunch of skills. You will also have less HP and spell energy due to being 5-6 levels behind, but that's less of a big deal than you might think, and you can always invest some of the skill points you saved on special skills into Intelligence and Endurance instead.

Quote:

3. If I run a dual-wield priest, slith spear tank, and dedicated mage, which races/traits should I choose?
I thought
A. DW Human priest w/ ambidex. & divinely touched
B. Slith w Elite Warrior
C. Nephil Mage w Natural Mage
but now I'm wondering if I should have chosen Elite Warrior for my human. Any other suggestions, and is there any reason to skip traits on Normal that one would choose on Torment?

Yeah, Elite Warrior is a better choice than Ambidextrous in general. For a priest, though, I'd seriously consider Pure Spirit: you need to invest heavily in Priest Spells skill, and that gets expensive. Also, if you want to optimise your party, you should make your priest a nephil (if only for the battle disciplines) and give everyone Divinely Touched. The only possible exception to giving everyone Divinely Touched is if you want your mage to cast high-level priest spells as well, in which case getting both Natural Mage and Pure Spirit is not a completely insane choice.

Some strategies, like maximising your dodging ability, are viable on Normal but not on Torment. But the strategies that do work on Torment will work even better on Normal.

Quote:

4. If I'm not playing a singleton, do I get much benefit in XP when I drop from a four to three-player party? Normal mode is easy enough, I'm sure, so would I have much need for a fourth character? Should I make my dual-wield human a dedicated fighter and make my priest role fulfilled by a fourth character?

Again, because of the way experience scales, going from a 4-PC to a 3-PC party will make a difference of a few levels over the course of the game. If you want to use a 3-PC party, go ahead, but a 4-PC party will likely make the game easier. You can never have too many priests.

[Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs]

Thank you for such a thorough answer. I've got one more question: does the character that kills a monster get the most xp, or is it split evenly across characters before reducing based on traits? Does a foe dying of acid damage award xp? I remember playing a Geneforge game in which I adored acid shower until I saw none of the monsters awarded xp.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Blue Wizard Shot a Potion

Thank you for such a thorough answer. I've got one more question: does the character that kills a monster get the most xp, or is it split evenly across characters before reducing based on traits? Does a foe dying of acid damage award xp? I remember playing a Geneforge game in which I adored acid shower until I saw none of the monsters awarded xp.

Good question. I suspect the character that kills a monster does get slightly more XP than the rest of the party, but it's hard to tell because there's some random variation due to the way experience penalties work. In any case, the effect is small: characters with the same experience penalty should end up within one level of each other by the endgame, provided you don't do something silly like clear out an entire dungeon or turn in a bunch of quests while one of your party members is unconscious. (Unconscious party members don't get XP at all, and they also don't gain skills or spells from scripted events, which can really screw you over if you read spellbooks with an unconscious party member. So don't do that.)

Your anecdote about Acid Shower is a bit odd. Normally, in the Geneforge series, when a monster dies of ongoing damage from acid, poison or lightning, the kill is credited to whoever most recently attacked it. If that was you or a creation, you get awarded the XP. If you didn't get any XP, it was probably because the monsters were just too low-level to give you XP in the first place.

[Randomizer]

The random factor in dividing up XP does funny things. If you save and reload a few times just before turning in items for a collection quest and compare the before and after XP for a character you will see that the character doesn't always get the same amount. This can be especially irritating if the character needs 1 XP to go up a level.

 

XP from a multi round damaging attack can also be funny. Usually you get it, but if there is a charmed monster helping you it's last attack can prevent you from getting XP.

[Lilith]

Interestingly, if nobody attacked an enemy before it died, the experience is awarded to you by default. For example, enemies killed by exploding mines in Geneforge give you experience even if you never directly attacked them. There are only a couple of times when this is realistically likely to come up.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

For example, enemies killed by exploding mines in Geneforge give you experience even if you never directly attacked them. There are only a couple of times when this is realistically likely to come up.

They do need to be in your line of sight for you to get the experience, though. (At least, the alphas on the bridge in G4 did.)

Dikiyoba.

[Dahak]

What about when a summon kills someone. Does the party get XP? Many of the tougher fights I augment with Summon Aid but they often manage to land the last blow...

[Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

They do need to be in your line of sight for you to get the experience, though. (At least, the alphas on the bridge in G4 did.)

Dikiyoba.

EUREKA! When I used acid shower, I would often retreat and close a door while my enemies suffered an agonizing death.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Dahak

What about when a summon kills someone. Does the party get XP? Many of the tougher fights I augment with Summon Aid but they often manage to land the last blow...

Jeff fixed that since Avernum 5 so you should get the XP. I remember having to redo a long fight with Lark's Pit Crawler quest because a summoned shade got in the death blow.

[Domar]

Hey, only read the first post so sorry if this was already said, I usually pick Fast on Feet due to the AP boost that you'd get on earlier games, it made all the difference, however, the one extra AP sometimes really doesn't seem to work that well on this one, I swapped Fast on Feet out for Divinely Touched, and instead of Giant Lizards having 1% chance to hit me, it was around 70% to hit me, i'm wondering if this extra evasion bonus I was getting from Fast on Feet is its new purpose, or if it simply glitched up. Edit: Apologies, it only got that hit rate on that one lizard, all others that I ran into did 1% hit rate, it was one summoned by tenelan when I was trying to kill him.

[GIFTCockroach]

So yeah, Fast on Feet DOES have a 10% bonus to evasion. I tested it.

[dbouya]

what's so great about divinely touched? sure it has some nice bonuses but...

 

 

if you had an EW DT slith wouldn't that be 65% experience penalty? or does the way the EXP chart works just mean that even only getting 35% of normal exp is still enough to level up? or should slith avoid DT?

[Randomizer]

Avernum 4 to 6 give decreased experience with character level. So the severe experience penalty of 65% means that you level up at a slightly slower rate, but you finish the game only a few levels lower than someone with less of a penalty. The free skills that you get more than balance out the lost level skill points.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. Everything will be much clearer.

[dbouya]

oh i see so...

 

you get a 65% experience penalty but you also get a fairly big experience BONUS for killing things at a lower level than you would've otherwise? wow intersting

[Alorael at Large]

Basically. Because experience gains from a given enemy scale down sharply as you gain levels, that 65% is only accurate for two characters at the same level. In the very beginning of the game your character will lag, but you start out with substantial bonuses to offset that. Later on, the few levels you lag mean that level increase rates become nearly equal. Over the course of the game, you basically sacrifice a few levels for the expensive traits, and since the traits scale with level and give you far more skill points' worth of skills than you'd get from those lost levels they're a good deal.

 

—Alorael, who is fairly sure he's said this before. In fact, he's fairly sure it's in this very thread. Still, it bears saying again. The experience penalty is much smaller than it appears, and the larger the penalty (or bonus), the more grossly exaggerated it becomes.

[Randomizer]

The approximate difference is just less than 2 levels for every 10% difference in experience penalty. But the greater the experience penalty difference the less extra levels you will get. For 65% difference it will be about 6 to 8 levels.

[Slawbug]

It's not in this very thread. It is in about twenty others, though.

[Alorael at Large]

Math check, please. If it's just less than two levels for 10% and the difference goes down as the penalty goes up, how is 65% penalty eight levels?

 

—Alorael, who can't remember actually seeing any figures for levels lost other than vague feelings about difference by people who have run multiple parties.

[Slawbug]

Even within A4-A6, it's been slightly different in each game as Jeff has adjusted both the steepness of the experience formula, as well as how much experience is actually available.

 

However, the relevant point in all cases is that LEVEL UPS DO NOTHING EXCEPT GRANT YOU THOSE 5 SKILL POINTS and small amounts of HP and SP. Skill points become relatively LESS useful at higher levels, since the skills you care about cost more... on the other hand, for the same reason, the bonus skills you get from races and traits become relatively MORE useful because they would cost more and more to acquire naturally. Divinely Touched would be worthwhile even if it cost you 8 levels for that alone, and it doesn't. When a Divinely Touched Elite Warrior Slith finishes around 5 levels lower, as has been typical for the second trilogy, it's a total no-brainer. What do I want more: 25 skill points, maybe 40 HP and 30 SP... or on the order of 300 skill points worth of bonus skills?

[Lilith]

The HP difference does end up being pretty substantial. On the other hand, Divinely Touched gives you 20% resistance to everything, which is like having 20% more HP but better.

[Alorael at Large]

You can buy some more Endurance with all those skill points you save.

 

—Alorael, who would buy more Wisdom Crystals and Knowledge Brews if training still cost money as well as skill points.

[Randomizer]

From Avernum 4, a singleton with different traits:

 

30 level = +35% XP bonus from human, brittle bones, frail

25 level = -30% XP penalty from human, pure spirit, elite warrior

24 level = -55% XP penalty from nephil, natural mage, divine touch

 

this is at the end of the Eastern Gallery with everything completed. The level difference stays pretty constant through out the rest of the game.

[suocbull]

I am debating human or nephil for a mage character w/ DT/NM and a priest character w/ DT/PS . From the role player perspective I like the idea of a party that includes all races and I'm not particularly interested in the ranged weapon skills. I understand the nephil have an experience penalty but get bonuses to ranged skills. But the ranged skills only count half as much toward battle disciplines as melee/pole.

 

Even though they only count half as much toward the battle disciplines do the nephils ranged bonuses count more than making a human character with no exp penalty and then putting the points into pole/melee for battle disciplines? Is the difference significant enough that it makes the difference between unlocking something like adrenaline rush at a higher level?

[Jerakeen]

Actually, while ranged weapon skills count half as much, nephilim get bonuses to both bows and thrown weapons, so the net effect on battle skill is identical to that of a slith.

 

And yes, it makes a significant difference to unlocking battle disciplines.

[Alorael at Large]

The critical thing about experience penalties is that because of experience scaling to level they actually have very little effect. The free skills you get from nephils or sliths are far more than you could buy with the five or ten extra skill points you'd get over the course of the game.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't really immensely love bonus ranged for casters. It's nice, but it's not fantastic. It's just better than spears, which you know you'll try your hardest to avoid using.

[Slawbug]

In A4 it's pretty amazing, because bows are pretty amazing. In A5 I agree with Alorael. In A6, due to great spears/halberds being available early and the better Slith HP and resistance bonus, I can be convinced either way.

[Alorael at Large]

At the very beginning, the difference that your few bonus points from sliths will make is pretty small. Want to have your mages mix it up in melee? Give them spears and have them charge in. In the late game, that's a terrible idea. The HP and the resistance are okay, but I'll still take improved plinking. But yes, it's debatable.

 

—Alorael, who is reminded of the bug that persisted a surprisingly long time in the A4 beta: magic skill going into ranged damage, not magic damage. Mages with no bow skill were overpowered snipers.

[Trenton.]

That makes no sense. If they had no bow skill, then how can your mages arrows find their enemies head?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Trenton

That makes no sense. If they had no bow skill, then how can your mages arrows find their enemies head?

Yes, that's why it was a bug and was eventually fixed.

Of course, if you really want an explanation, Dikiyoba can think of one: the mages' arrows find their enemies because of magic.

[Earth]

radar guided arrows (heatseekers was 1st idea but undeads/skeletons are quite coldish and on lava filled areas those would be useless).

[Alorael at Large]

It's actually stranger than that. The arrows seek out malice, aggression, and hostility. Now they're calibrated to find those emotions aimed at the archer. Early prototypes had a tendency to pick off bloodthirsty party members, as no one matches adventurers for malice, aggression, and hostility.

 

—Alorael, who asked much the same question about why his mages were so good to Jeff. He could accept it for a few levels, but when they consistently outdid the actual archers it became noticeably weird.