alhoon

Wait, if the disease hits Shaped-people instead of Creations... my character needs to start stocking antibiotics. 

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Doesn't Lord Rahul in GF3 have a Shaper wife? I thought it was marriage to a common that was looked down on, as with Taygen, for info-sec reasons.

I don't remember anything like that and from what I remember from Taygen's info, it is deep romantic connections that are frown upon. 

53 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

Yeah, but that wasn't an engineered disease, as far as I could tell. It seems to have just come up from people living in a swamp, which sounds normal to me.

Then why did it affect only serviles? 

3 minutes ago, oceanes said:

I wonder if in humans, that runs in families, or if it is a purely learned skill?

If it run in families, there would be very few Shapers left, as they strongly look down on families. You create life though magic, not through nature! 

So, I think it is not purely inherent talent because then it would have been "bred out" of the population. 

PS. I edited my post above after you posted. 

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Trajikov is one of the key examples of someone handling Geneforge tech remarkably well, better than any other subject, in fact. Of course, from a Doylist perspective, this has to do with the fact that the exact effects of self-Shaping developed over the course of the series, but given that Jeff saw fit not to change the endings for the remake (with one exception, in the loyalist ending), it points to the exact mental effects of the Geneforge depending on one's starting point, physically and mentally. In fact GF4 reinforces this, with the protagonist not being mad despite using a Geneforge, albeit a reduced one, from the beginning. Given this, I have to chalk it up to Trajikov not being a Shaper, either technically or culturally, and thus having a different mindset, just as the GF4 PC was a commoner beforehand. There is something about Shaper training, and its worldview that mixes poorly with whatever heightened mental and physical state the Geneforge and canisters produce. Relatedly, there is also evidence from GF2 that the negative effects of canister use can be ameliorated up to a point by spacing out use, and giving the subject time to acclimate.

That Trakjov's madness was not blatant, doesn't mean it wasn't there. I agree that he handled it well though. 

As for the "from a Doylist perspective, this has to do with the fact that the exact effects of self-Shaping developed over the course of the series" ... the PC in GF1 becomes more detached than Tuldaric is, a powerhungry psychopath. After you use the Geneforge and go to the continent you see even Shapers as insignificant insects. And the other Shapers that use the Geneforge if you didn't destroy it are the same. Terrestia is ravaged by 12 Monarchs. 

I have not seen the Barzhite ending of GF2-I but I doubt Barzhal becomes as mad as the GF1-M protagonist. I read in the endings that even Goetch the Shaper that the Sholai stole goes ballistic and lands with a huge force and starts tearing stuff up. 

Thus... yes, Trakjov seems to the be the one handling it the best from humans. Even the much Lauded GF4 protagonist, that uses a different and lesser one goes mad when he or she downs several canisters. 
The Drakons handle the Geneforge and the canisters better.  

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Relatedly, there is also evidence from GF2 that the negative effects of canister use can be ameliorated up to a point by spacing out use

And from GF4 (Litalia reigns it in albeit remaining irrevocably lacking empathy and being mad to the end of her days). 

There is also ample evidence that Shapers are not having a full house up there to begin with. Think of it: 

They are arrogant, extremely powerful, can create life with a whim and they are reigned in by a very rigid set of laws. 

Then, Canisters / Geneforge. 
That's already breaking the laws. So, a Shaper that is ready to do it (Rawal) has already removed the "breaks" (obedience to one of the most sacred parts of Shaper Law) before he even takes his first canister. And he or she does that ... for power. So, again, we already have an individual with the afomentioned traits removing the breaks in the quest for power.

Then, we have the progressive lack of empathy and cannister addiction. Addiction makes people do things they wouldn't do and take risks they wouldn't take. 

Lack of Empathy on someone that can create life with a thought will sooner or later translate on "Life is expendable, cause I can replace it". The thought of "Oh, a car killed your dog? I will replace it with a better dog!" but for people. 

All those are there BEFORE the madness begins for Shapers. 

1 hour ago, l33tmaan said:

Ah, I haven't played GF3 in almost a decade, nor did it really stick with me. Thanks for the reminder!

But it is not just in GF3 though; in all games a disease is mentioned. I mean, in GF2-I there's a big quest to fight a disease. 

28 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

How come shapers don't do more bio-warfare, anyway? Lack of ability? Actual ethical limitations?

First, everything the Shapers do in war, is bio-warfare. 

Second, they do diseases. In GF3 you find one. Also, the Takers use diseases in their fights. However, in the Game's timeframe, the Shapers are in control. Why would they create a disease to fight 16 bandits in the woods or something like an uprising of 10 villages? There is no widespread rebellion or big-sized enemy to necessitate something as double-edged as a disease. 

1 minute ago, Slawbug said:

For the eighteenth time, the endings have not changed.

ohhhh... so I should have checked the Original GF1 endings. Got it. I will. Apologies. 

I will hold my ground on the insects thing, though. I remember seeing the Shapers as insects. 

15 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

alhoon, I love you, but it is really frustrating to consistently have you respond to things with "what you recall" when you could just look it up and discover that you are wrong.

Ehh... I did look for the endings of Mutagen-1 but I didn't see a list. 

24 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

That's fair.  I do think taking down the Shapers is important.  But I don't think it trumps all other considerations.

 

In the Trajkov G1 ending, the Shapers are taken down, and creations are given equality right out of the gate.  That's basically a better outcome for everybody.

 

Trajkov could do that because he wasn't bent on vengeance -- he just wanted to win.  Okay, lots of other reasons too.  But there are better options than the drakon plans.

From what I recall, Trakjov's motivation was madness and powerlust. He was like a never-have-been-good Tuldaric or a not-trained-Barzhite in my books. Creation freedoms was a bleep in his radar. 

I remember thinking of the Shapers in ... that city I land, as insects. 

27 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

Even the rosiest and most idealistic way to wrap up G5 seems like a worse outcome to me.

Because we don't agree on how important it was to take down the Shapers.

The war and devastation that follows the Drakon wars are what is needed to dismantle the Shaper Empire and bring justice (or revenge if you want) to the Shapers for their crimes. 

"in the Awakened ending, that stance works out for the best."

A perpetual stalemate the sees the Shaper Empire smaller by a mountain range and weaker by a few thousand Serviles? 
No, I do not consider that something to be proud about. 

If I could, I would simply force the Awakened and the Takers to make peace - or at least a Truce. Awakened would guard Drypeak and the Takers could go wild outside - and bring in Serviles and willing Shapers to the Awakened. 
The Awakened supporting all out war is not something they want, and the Takers giving anything to the Awakened or looking for Shapers to Spare is certainly something they don't want. 

Thus, it would be very hard to accomplish. Perhaps if beating the Takers hard enough and eliminating their extremists could work. But on the other hand, a moderate Taker that sees his or her leaders killed over ideological differences is unlikely to remain moderate... 

2 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Sorry, I didn't see it was original. You do want to level up creation strength since that does damage and to hit chance.

And remember there is a bug or something, that items that give Creation Strength don't work, as far as I remember. 

That said... I strongly recommend to switch to GF2-Infestation. It is a great improvement. 

I am officially moving to Lifecrafter from Shaper: 

1. I have consumed two cannisters. 

2. I am paying a veteran in Eastern Medab to care for my Creations. (<== This is a mod I made, don't look for him).

Thus, proving that self-shaping works and refusing to simply kill my creations even if it bites me financially, I am a Lifecrafter. 

Down with Shaper Tyranny! Glory to the Rebellion! 

3 hours ago, Slawbug said:

...except listen to how he talks about the Awakened.  He ridicules them, he ridicules their openness and kindness.

 

Was Zakary (that is how his name is spelled) probably always a shaper who was relatively decent to creations?  Sure.  So, by all indications, is Shanti.  I don't think he's a failed Awakened, I think he's a failed Shanti.  He's not cruel, but he also doesn't care about how creations are treated by the Shaper world in general.  He accepted the free serviles earlier in his life not because he agreed with them but because he is unprincipled, and it was useful to his power and prestige-seeking to accept them.  He's just an unprincipled and self-centered Shaper.

I didn't say he was a failed Awakened. I said he has shown sympathies for the Serviles. Not enough to call him Awakened, certainly. 

Would Shanti have saved any Servile from Sucia? Probably not, to be honest. 

On the rest, we agree. I didn't mean to imply that he did what he did because of his Servile Sympathies and he is quick to throw them away. 

PS. Pinner's stance is open to ridicule, to be honest. Trying to convince the Shapers to treat them like Common is a bad-cannister dream. The way to acceptance and for the Shapers to change their entire world-view is through brutal war and tearing down the Shaper Empire, and to do that, one has to kill about 80% or so of the Shapers. 

31 minutes ago, oceanes said:

True. I wonder if we have a Kim Dynasty situation here. Do you think Tyallea would kill him if he tried to evacuate to Medab and merge with the Awakened? Would Drypeak revolt if he did have sympathies and showed them? Not that he does, by the time we meet him, but a calculus like that may have influenced what side he fell on and subsequently convinced himself of. Zackary is also the sort to view any sort of conflict with the Shapers as hopeless, even more than Pinner, and unlike her, has the option of not resisting. If Zackary dies, he knows most under him like Nora will be spared, as long as he preaches loyalism.

No, but I don't think Tyallea would follow him. 
I do believe Nora or how the Guardian Lying Zackary the Deceiver saved would follow him to the end, if he bolted. She is a father-figure for her.  Which seems to lead more credit to the "soft spot for those he sees as Children" narrative - that  is not enough to save him. I will kill him. 

I actually do think he still has sympathies towards the Serviles! He is just thinking that sympathies or not, he should have stopped showing mercy OR that he should stop showing mercy to rogue serviles at this point. Zackary doesn't push hard against Medhab, he is afraid of Barzhal, terrified of the Council and the Takers but in the end, he throws his lot with the Shapers knowing he will be killed for his crimes. 

As for his view against war with the Shapers as hopeless... I think he doesn't want war with the Shapers! He -is- a Shaper. A bad Shaper, a criminal Shaper, but he views himself as part of the Shaper Empire (and thus, he is irredeemable in my eyes and must die - and yes, I still consider myself an Awakened! I am not a Taker!)

 Regardless, if Zackary was that true to his convictions, he would not have waited for you to clean his mess. He could have send Nora to the Council or one of the 12 Shapers he has locked behind his throne. I saw at least an Agent there and a bunch of Guardians. All of them Shapers. He could have told one of them to go inform the Council. But he doesn't. He tries to have you clean up first. Last I saw, Shaper was a fully trained, albeit old, Shaper. He has a bunch of Guardians. I didn't see an offer to put me under Guardian813 or Shaping a battle Beta to put under my control, essence free. Nooope. He wants me to clean up his mess for him, giving me a few trinkets here and there for my work. 

Those words make him appear far more sympathetic than he is in game! He is a pathetic worm that DESPITE KNOWING what he does is morally wrong, he lied for decades, perpetuated the slavery of Serviles in his lands, crimes against other Creations, didn't reign in Barzhal, on purpose kept his colony a failure perpetuating the poverty of the Common he deceived to follow him and the Serviles that he brought there. While he did have his conscience and is not insane, he is responsible for a lot of suffering. 
I cannot stress that enough: We are talking about the few redeeming qualities of Zackary, in a way that paints him in a far better light than he should be viewed at.

Barzhal has the "I am mad" benefit of the doubt for his crimes. Zackary has not. For a decade Zackary was lying, deceiving and enabling the suffering of Creations under Barzhal and he did that first out of ambition and as years passed out of fear.

I don't mind him at all treating them like Commons. I mind that he changed his mind and wants to purge them all. 

2 hours ago, oceanes said:

There is also a very timid servile in Medab who mentions that Zackary was the only Shaper who was ever kind to him, that he treated him gently. I think Zackary has a soft spot for children, or those he thinks of as children.

It is a kid Servile girl, an orphan and Lying Zackary the Deceiver was not just "kind to her", he was the Shaper that protected her and saved her and put her under his protection. Most Serviles that survived was useful in some way or another; not that girl. She was spared because Zackary saved her. And its not that her parents were useful so he wanted to warm up to them. No. She is an orphan. I cannot see any benefit from saving what's-her-name for Zackary aside of basic human decency. 

Lying Zackary the Deceiver has a couple of redeeming qualities, that in no way overshadow or even compare to the vast net of deception he set up or how pathetic and sniveling he is. 

He is not that far from the Awakened, which is understandable because Lying Zackary the deceiver is still the same Zackary that walked in Sucia all those years ago- he hasn't Shaped himself, so he is not mad. He had come to understand, in his horror, how much happened behind his back. He was too slow "to be afraid" and he had lost control of the mountains long before he realizes that he was not in control of the mountains, that the Awakened were not Common under the Shaper Empire but independent from him and his wishes. 

Regardless, I will kill him for the tons of lies he told me and for backtracking and throwing his lot with the Shapers. If Zackary was willing to join the Awakened against Barzhal and the Shaper Council, I would be willing to look the other way; he is not very useful for research himself but the tons of Shapers he has under his control are better.  

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

you know I always thought of the purity agent as a biological warfare version of a nuke.

Not really; it doesn't do big devastation that renders an area uninhabitable for years and hazardous for decades. 

The equivalent of a nuke is a spawner that makes rogues that can reproduce. 

1 hour ago, ultra112 said:

Wait he had those scrolls? Ok didn't know about that one though. 

Yeap. From all of them, Taygen has it. And obviously, like the Wise Shaper he is, promoted for his genius and skill, what he does with this awesome power is: 

Create a plague that is extremely contagious and absolutely deadly to creations, hitting them at the most fundamental level. A complete genocide of anything, from Unbound and Shredbugs down to Ornks and Batons. 

Think of it like pressing the button and destroying all electronics in our world. 

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

To be perfectly honest what Danette and her team researched on Sucia is absolutely ground breaking and would have revolutionized Shaping forever; but sadly they let this excitement went right up to their heads and ruined the whole thing as a result, not to mention leaving a huge mess for us to clean up afterwards.

Why so? 

Taygen has those scrolls in his lab and it is not destroyed. 

2 hours ago, Slawbug said:

On the other hand, in old SW games with stat or skill based hit rates, that just resulted in incredibly inflexible and predictable stat/skill point usage.  It was really punishing if you wanted to diversify at all, and it didn't actually result in deeper or more varied or more interesting build options.

That. 

You would be very suboptinal to put say 30% / 70% of your points on missile /melee  if you were melee as you wouldn't hit with missile except in weak enemies and you would be gimping your melee hit chance. 

That's just covering the evidence in a very efficient way. 

3 hours ago, Slawbug said:

The necessary investment in Mechanics and Leadership is pretty tiny.

 

> having more creation at zero upgrade has a better outcome than spending essence on upgrades of fewer creations

 

I mean, "upgrades" vary wildly in how good they are.  For the most part I agree with this sentiment, but there are some key upgrades for many creations that are absolutely worth it.

Haste for example, or the blast cones for drayks/Fyoras come to mind!

Anyone managed to kill Shanti? I loaded back right before I got out of the tunnel and tried it. 
She is probably too hard for a 6th level character but it should be doable for you pros, at least in normal difficulty. I managed to get her down to below half hp before she did something that did 70 hp to my already wounded char. 

1 minute ago, Randomizer said:

"

What are the summoned soul jars? "

 

When you do enough damage to Teriel, he summons a soul jar that heals him and provides some other bonuses.

I saw "summon soul jar" but I didn't see anything aside of an Ur-Glaak.