alhoon

I think that was the ending more close to what we learn in GF3.

On the Takers vs All Shapers: It is apparently not always so: I think these were around in the O-GF2 too. Anyway. - The Awakened didn't notice a bunch of Takers setting up camp next to their town. Which I can't 100% blame the Awakened, considering where this camp is, but on the other hand, they are trying to stop the Takers from burning Troia to the ground so ... it is great negligence anyway (Also, as for the Takers don't attack Awakened; this is like the 3rd group of Takers I found besieging Troia, and I haven't gone to the fort nearby then, nor I count the brigands that poor Eko Blade was running with. The ones with the plan to bring a bunch of Infernals to purge the world from my kind.) Eko was a Taker. I liked Eko. But I think he counts as "ex-Taker" in this case; he still wants to fight the Shapers but he turned to something ... different than geneforge and all. I do not blame him, mind you. It is insanely risky to consort with those Infernals, obviously, but is it less risky than a geneforge? I don't know. The Takers seek power to stop the Shapers, and Shapers fear the Infernals. And for a very good reason from the Infernal I saw... - The Takers do not attack you on sight. That was O_O surprise for me. I remember cutting through an army of Takers till I managed to speak to one. These Takers are actually willing to talk to a Shaper instead of Take their Free. And mind you, a Shaper which they (rightfully) assume is an Awakened. Even when I lie to them that I am a Taker but don't have that token, they are still not attacking me, just not letting me... in their tiny camp. Honestly, those are "rogue" Takers by Taker standards. They claim the name, they don't hold the conviction. They are brigands, plain and simple, that used to be Takers. And yet... they don't attack me. I have leadership 7. I told them to back off, they didn't but they still didn't attack me, when I showed by "True Colors" of being an evil Shaper that would threaten Creations. Cowardice? Perhaps. But these are "the moderate Takers" I was talking about.

Is Queen's Wish 3 the next game to be made after GF2-I?

Isn't a very old Shaper in Geneforge 4, in the Shaper camp? Where you can confuse that old lady to Shape you for a +1 spellcraft, by basically telling her it is not really shaping but "unlocking potential"? Khyrrik would probably let her be. And throwing her to the Ashen Isles to do menial work like supervising the growth of plants and batons/mines as a punishment for her running away would be fitting. We should learn to make real Vlish from her. Not the ones we have here, the real Vlish of GF3-era. The real Vlish should be extremely useful for their essence cost. I have a Drakon and 2 Drayks in my party, I am 12th level and I still pause when I see Vlish and check their level and approach carefully. It is ingrained in me now after GF3-5 and the massacre of the Vlish fields outside the Obeyer Village in Mutagen.

Meh, now I feel bad for brutally killing him...

That is what Sharon thinks, at least. We can't be sure that the Council would kill her for running away. Lying Zackary the Deceiver, Shanti and other Shapers are more sympathetic to Sharon. Shanti would rat Sharon out, but it seems to be no animosity or malice there. And while the Shapers are still in absolute control in GF2, by GF3, I doubt the Shaper Council would come down on Sharon like a wall of bricks. They would tell her that "in the old days" she would be severely punished but she would probably get away with a slap in the hand and a demotion - as long as she returned to work.

Rebel Shaper: Lifecrafter Taker Shaper: Lifecrafter Trajkovite Shaper: Mage that could, theoretically Shape. Disloyal Shaper: Shaper We could argue terminology and splitting hairs all day. The point I think we try to raise is "do you understand what we mean, not the Shaper Council, not the Takers" mean? I think what "neutral Shaper" or "Ex-Shaper" means in the context of this discussion is "Someone that was once trained by the Shapers, that can Shape but is not-aligned to the Shaper council any more but has not joined the Rebels either." Neutral may not be the right term, but it is easier to write than the entire sentence.

Ah, I see. For us, you don't graduate until you finish the Practicum and defend the thesis you write about it. We call it "Diploma Thesis" but it is not just the thesis, you also have to do a few months of work (similar to an intern) while supervised and guided by a Supervisor. That's before you can graduate and it feels very much what the PC is going through. GF2 PC is also called "Apprentice" by everyone that knows, which to me seems like "under-grad" GF1 PC had finished his or her studies and was on his way to start the practical work of his thesis. For my Diploma thesis, back when I was an undergrad, I was went to a small remote island to gather some data with a GPS (back before they were on phones etc) so I could use that data to geolocate aerial photos (back before the drones). GF3 PC is at his senior year IIRC. Not yet ready. Considering he is out of his apprentiship and you would theoretically be out of yours in a few months, I would say probably 6 months to a year ahead of you. I would say he is even before the "hasn't been picked up" part and more in the immediate-after-graduation dilemma of "Where do I apply for a job or M.Sc?" And from our students, I can tell you that this may take several months.

No, Brodus was absolutely sane. Was Eko Blade in Mutagen perhaps? Perhaps I remember him from there.

I am in the bandit cave, of the Thee. I see... Eko Blade as auto-hostile. For the life of me, I thought that I have talked with Eko Blade in the past.

Yeap. You don't have to just crush the budding, tender, reluctant peace-dealings between Astoria and the Rebellion, or to trash the food production with insanely destructive and also dangerous pests. You also have to stomp Astoria's spirit under your blood-soaked boots. And the missions get worse. Litalia's Trakovites are the worst kind of Terrorists that I have seen in Geneforge, and I include shaping the Unbound there. A quick reminder that Litalia was gunning to kill Trakovites in GF4, when the other Rebels thought they were not a priority and they should be left alone for the time.

Welcome to the Takers, brother.

That's not an undergrad; that's a post-grad student you are describing. You are an undergrad as a wide-eyed apprentice that knows very little aside of what he needs to start Shaping, undergoing his thesis defense under Shanti. It just so happens that your "Thesis Defense" means you have to literally defend your stance, with a bunch of Tier-4 creations. The "Opponent" isn't asking questions, it's three to four different armies going against you.

Not true. The Takers create "people with the power to create and enslave creations". Through the Geneforge. Lifecrafters are "people with the power to create and enslave creations" they just choose not to.

Tyallea requires orders from Lying Zackary the Deceiver before she opens up to teach you everything on the menu. I haven't met the other too.

The Rebels are closer to the Takers, they are not the Takers. The Rebellion has many factions. The Takers being one of them. The Drakon nationalists you talk about are not bona-fide Takers. The Takers are about defeating the Shapers for revenge/justice or for their right to survive.

The reason self-shaping is banned is not the accident rates - which is not that bad. It is you become a madman with too much power. The Shapers are big on learning slowly and being evaluated before you learn more. We see that with the Servants, where Lying Zackary the Deceiver has you learn the magic for a few Creations before you join, at which point he clears you for more training. The Awakened do not attempt to bar you; Carnelian can't teach you much because she's not that powerful. Tuldaric on the other hand goes the ... ??? way and teaches you everything for average price. If I remember the other sects correct, the Barzhites are actually pushing you to go fast in your training (canisters). The Takers are more reserved towards a Shaper from what I remember but it is clear they also share knowledge very freely. To go back to Tuldaric, his way of teaching is bizarre; I had a drakon in the party from level 9. He just goes "OK" and teaches you everything without any quest. That you are Awakened seems good enough to him. Quite irresponsible, if you ask me.

Who brought half a dozen infernals here? Why? It's not like they have some big secret. We already know Shaping here.

Nah, the GF5 endings make it clear that history branded him as a villain, not a heroic monster. It is not just that. That Last Shaper, in most Taker eyes, deserves death as punishments for a lifetime of crimes.

I agree. I am just comparing them To Taygen that didn't make those exceptions. Taygen's genocide was unparalleled in history for its efficiency. Enough to push even the Shapers to admit that perhaps the Trakovites have some point. Sharon expected to be punished when found out and when the illegal Shaping started she expected to be executed for her negligence. Khyryk ... I don't remember but in GF4, Trakovites are executed by gibbeting, letting them to die from starvation hanging from a cage. The Shapers are not tolerant of the Trakovites. The Rebels, with the exception of Litalia in GF4 (Lololol) are kinda-tolerant to the Trakovites; most consider them fools and only Litalia hunts them down as dangerous ideology (again, lol). Khyryk is targeted when he is still a sitting Shaper lord though; I don't think they target him in GF4. Unless I remember wrong (and I very well could be), only Litalia wants him dead in GF4, not Greta. That said, your point is again correct: The Takers do not make exceptions for any Shaper that is not on their side. The Rebels may do, but the Rebels are not Takers, they are "Takers and Friends" and it is mostly the "and friends" that are willing to do the exceptions. I understand why the Takers (or even the Rebels) would label even ex-Shapers as the enemy. That doesn't make it right though.

Ah, Taygen... Taygen doesn't do half-measures. The Takers are willing to leave some friendly Shapers and when they form the Great Rebellion, Shapers that change sides (Litalia, Greta, the player character, etc) are tolerated or even elevated depending on how far they go. Taygen? Taygen even kills the batons, the living tools, the doors. He sends the Shapers to the dark age. I also completely agree that "They are out to get uuuuuuuuuuus!!!!" has been used to justify genocide since time immemorial, way before the word genocide was invented 100 years ago. Another very common trope to justify genocide is "they did it first!!" / "Juuusticeeee!!!" See the Rwandan Genocide that started as retaliation by the Hutu against the Tutsi. That said: I am still not convinced the Awakened way leads to anything but a prolonged stalemate that is doomed to end in a collapse 30, 50, 100 years after the game ends. But I will have to reach the ending to find out. And I am still at level 11. And in the case of the Drayks and Drakons? They are right. The Shapers are out to get them.

The Takers would be right for many reasons. 1. The Shapers would come for the Awakened Nation sooner or later, even if a peace holds for 10 or 40 years. 2. The Shapers were hunting and killing them for no reason, there's no reason to think they won't do so again. 3. Putting the interests and Safety of Drayks, Drakons and rogue Serviles aside, the Shakers need to be taken down, because they are an evil, oppressive empire. The Common don't have it bad, compared to Creations or compared to other totalitarian / Theocratic / non-democratic regimes in history. But the Creations? No, they have reason to want to end the Shapers.

I disagree. Vigilantism is not good, but seeking revenge / justice over the slights you suffered doesn't put you in the no-excuse evil box. And it can be argued that Taking your Free is not just suicide-by-Shaper but a desire to die a free being, which is frankly admirable and their most endearing quality.

Xander is a mage servile that is recruitable for the Awakened. Being fond of Xander and always on the lookout for an extra pair of hands (or claws), I made this small mod so that Xander will be useful for a few more levels, without ever being overly powerful. Here is the link for the mod. What the mod does: - It slightly increases Xander's level as the PC gains levels. To do that, you must visit Medab with Xander in the party. Xander gains +1 level when the PC reaches levels 10, 12 and 13. This reflects that as Xander travels with you, he becomes more experienced. However, his potential to reach is not that much; Xander will reach level 15 when the PC reaches level 13 and remain there. - At the PC level 11 Xander does not gain a level. However, the PC can talk to Cayche in the Magus Complex (as long the player is Awakened). If you perform a short fetch quest for her, she will increase Xander's proficiency with his spells. The change won't be dramatic; Xander gets +2 magic skill (+10% damage) and a +2 to +3 to the various spells he already knows. This will boost his damage somewhat without bringing him on par with a tier 3 creation. - Xander receives some minor resistances when you find him. These resistances slowly increase with his level. - Xander, as written in the game, had Searer as a default ranged attack AND as an active ability, which I found strange. I replaced his 2nd searer with a different spell. Installation Instructions: From Steam library, click on geneforge on the list to open the menu, go to "Browse local files", navigate to the "scripts" folder and overwrite the four scripts there with the scripts in the zip file.

That... is a very interesting question. I don't know the answer. I disagree with you that the Awakened are happy for the Drayks to be genocided as the Awakened always talk about thinking creations. They even include the Gazers in that, which the later Rebels do not. But I am not sure all the Awakened are willing to fight to the end for the Drayks, no. They are willing to talk it out with the Shapers. But if it comes to the Shapers saying "And you will not allow Drayks in your lands, or no deal!" ... I don't know, I honestly don't know what the Awakened would say. I am sure some Awakened will say "No. They are thinking creations." But I also sure some Awakened will say "sad, but we had to compromise to end the war." and the "if we have to throw the Drayks under the bus in order to end the war so be it" faction would grow in power as the war goes on. ON THE OTHER HAND: Barrier of the Winds. There is evidence that the Awakened will align with a "new generation" of Drakons that are not Takers. And I doubt even the Awakened will be that stupid to turn on their most powerful guards if the Shapers say "get rid of them, and then we talk." So, to surmise: It is certain that the Awakened will push for Drayk/Drakon rights. I am not so certain if they will go to the end for the Drayks. And I am actually certain they will never ever fight with the tenacity the Drayks will for the Drayks' right to survive. Heck, the Awakened are not willing to fight for their survival with the tenacity that Taker Serviles fight. It is not like the Awakened are not aware what will happen to them if the Shapers win. Even the Obeyers have been purged in Sucia. Let alone the Awakened. And yet, the Awakened are fighting a battle for their own survival with one hand tied behind their back. Against 10 foes. Their plan is to fight with one hand tied behind their back and a big stick in a small corridor so that the 10 foes will come one at a time. If I was a Drayk, I would be against the Awakened too, but not for the reasons you say. Well, kinda. From what I remember the dialogues with the Awakened leaders (plural) they always say "all thinking creations" which includes Drayks. But what the Drayks see is passiveness that will lead to their extermination. Lack of the conviction needed to avoid the genocide. When you are standing on the oil soaked field and the enemy is approaching with the torch, it is not the time to discuss whether you should first shout to the enemy to not do it, to try to reason with him as he holds the torch that will set you and all you love ablaze, before shooting him. And thus, we are back to your question: When genocide is on the line, is a moderate approach even morally good? I don't know. It is a hard question. But I know what a Drayk would think. ================================================================================= Back at being angry at Alvarny. I cleared the enemy encampment. And what do the Serviles do? Do they try to reclaim the supplies of the enemy? How about fortifying the enemy caves so the Takers won't simply slip inside again? Nope, they are tired (understandable) and so they all go back. Not a single guard left for the camp or the other camp. Just a patrol on the road. Which worked so marvelously the previous time.