alhoon

From GF5 map, I would think GF2 area would be one or at most two open-air zones in GF5.

Well, I thought we have all agreed that GF gameplay doesn't really reflect the story. In GF5, the top soldiers of the starting areas are a drop in the water compared to the soldiers of Derra reaches. Same for the random bandits. Some things are done for game balance. If I may, the lore of Geneforge is rich and obscure. We never learn "fluff" stuff like how big Terrestia actually is and we have to surmise it from discussions here and there. How many people live on it, how many Shapers or how many Drakons etc. We don't learn about the previous rebellions as the Shapers keep them secret, whether "Lords" like Lord Rahul are common and not mentioned or he's just an one-of-a-kind exarch-kind because the Ashen Isles are so far from the mainland, and stuff like that.

I would be very surprised if he was. On the other hand, the Shapers know their biology. If he was from a good family of strong and loyal people etc, he could have been eating protein day and night from young age, with exercises etc to become as massive for him to serve as a soldier or guardian. From story perspective, she was quite formidable. Not close to a veteran or a serious shaper, but still head and shoulders above how you are after you use the Geneforge. She escaped confinement, managed to set up her base and made machines etc too. All in all, she became as troublesome as a bandit leader with a moderate gang. And that with a touch of a pool. Regardless, the Geneforge in GF4 had the purpose to short-circuit a few years of intense study. Land you at the level of a Shaper apprentice before the test to become prospective. It didn't seem to have the purpose to make you equal to a Shaper with 10 years of service and training under his or her belt. That would have been too reckless for the human side of the Rebellion (Drakons have a very different opinion about that though). Anyway, using the "tame" Geneforge of GF4, Some people die, some people turn mad and some make it. But we're talking about grabbing farmers here and turning them to Shaper apprentices. That was (I think) what Southforge GF was made for.

About the female Guardian etc, Rawal has no problem Shaping people directly without the Geneforge. The guys he sends to meet you here and there are Shaped but they can't Shape except that one Servile on the mountains. However the female Guardian trained on her own, passed the tests despite the illegal changes Rawal did to her and then kept on training and learning the normal way. We can't simply say "Ohh, Rawal's Geneforge made a full fledged Guardian!" The GF4 geneforge made Shaila to something great even if broken. The purpose of the GF4 geneforge was to create lifecrafters that would have a lower chance to go crazy and if they did, they would be containable. The GF in Geneforge 4 is weaker than Lankan's Canister to bring the discussion back in GF3.

I have made a mod that makes melee attacks stronger for everyone in the past for GF3-5. I need to fish it out from somewhere. Never really cared for melee combat personally, so I didn't use this mod aside of testing it. EDIT: Here it is

Damn, you're right... Alwan is like a leveled up Thahd. Not a Battle Alpha, a Thahd. At least Greta is like a powered-up Artila. Gameman, should we look forward to perfected batons in GF3? Or a Perfected batons \ Alwan mod?

I would like to say that with my shaper and suboptimally not raising Vlish-making and Shaping fast enough, the Vlish are awesome, head-and-shoulders better than other creations for their cost. I had raised Fire Creations a bit because I like Drayks. But when in the 3rd Island I made my newly minted 24 lvl Drayk, with probably a hit bonus as it hits more often than Vlish... it was barely able to keep up with my 19-20 lvl Vlish. I kept the Drayk around for the extra hp and the Fire damage, but for a serious hit in essence that was limiting a bit my ability to cast boosting spells and heal. At the time, I had 3 Vlish, both Greta and Alwan (don't ask why, I just liked them) and the Drayk. I was... 16th lvl? 17th? Something like that. Alwan and Greta despite the "Free" upgrades and being with me since the first island were worse than Vlish and the Drayk. They were essence free though and I wanted them for the dialogue. The Drayk had +100-110 hp on the Vlish, did a little more damage (fire) and ... was worse than the Vlish in close combat because it didn't have poison. It also cost much more essence. With intelligence 2, it cost probably as much as 3 Vlish with intelligence 2. It was far less effective than two Vlish, let alone 3. Frankly, powerwise, I would be better if I absorbed the Drayk right back, kicked Alwan or Greta out and got 3 Vlish. 3 newly minted Vlish. Or kept both NPCs and made 2 Vlish and kept the extra essence for group heals and blessings. All the above are for normal difficulty and with creation-boosting equipment.

Impressive. However... Vlish can tank. They have their poison stinger too for those death stuff. They are also dead cheap. In the 2nd and 3rd island you have both Greta and Alwan so IMO even a guardian can concentrate on Vlishdom. They will level up and bless helps them hit.

If only that "always" was the case... Regardless, Since Vinlie has shown some interest in basic modding I try to find ways to encourage him.

You could always mod javelins to be unlimited (as in "I pick it back later!") or increase the number of thorns the lower batons have while leaving the others the same or many other nice things...

I found GF2 harder playing as a Shaper than GF5 to be sincere.

My Shaper's Cryora can take an Unbound by late game without me using blessing magic on her. She can beat your Cryoa every day of the week! :P

Well, my style is my Shaper in a corner 2 expendable creations and 4 big ones that I level and treat well. 5 when I can afford it. What I consider as "big" depends on what I have available. I always keep my trusty Cryora though through the whole game.

Equipment for Shapers in the last two games is very important too. My Shaper's equipment in GF5 gave my creations like +8-12 to all stats.

Shaper on the first part of GF3 is next to cheat mode. Although that Guardian you presented seems immortal.

Having played a Guardian in GF5 I have to say that he's not very weak. I had to increase the difficulty of some battles because a well equipped Guardian backed with a couple of Tralls is very formidable. Not as much as Shaper but still even without completing every quest, you can take down the final battles without too much trouble especially if you invest in inventory that makes your creations stronger instead of making you stronger. 4-5 high tier creations at +2 attack is better than you at +4 attack since they make more attacks. Speed spores and that chaos spores thing help as well. And since I suck at using magic for offense properly, Agents \ infiltrators would be more difficult for me IMO. But I would agree that on GF3 the Guardian is the weakest option. But not "by far" IMO. A Guardian will not probably have as much intelligence as an agent so he would have less ability to back creations with mind-bazooka and blessing magic. But since he won't need essence for much else, he could squeeze by to have as many or perhaps more creations than an Agent and theoretically he would get them earlier and at a bit higher Shaping bonus so I think they would be a few levels higher than the Agent's.

In GF5 that is the only game with both Guardians and Warriors, once the warrior hits 15 intelligence and 25 level, I think the guardian is left behind despite the early bonus. And with so many very powerful creations available, more essence = more power.

Don't they also get a little more essence?

Long live the rebellion comrade. First, it's not Guardians, it's warriors and Warriors-that-trained-with-the-hated-Shapers. :P I also thought Guardians Warriors were the weakest. I still think they are weaker than Shapers Lifecrafters in GF3-4 but perhaps that's just my playstyle. In GF3, at least in the not-late parts, more Vlish = more power. My Shaper rarely gets into combat as I keep back and bless\heal my Vlish. They are simply better than my spells or attacks although I haven't used a Guardian in GF3 to see if he can outperform the Vlish by the time the difference in levels grows large enough. People say that GF2 is the Guardian's game but... I prefer Shapers so I went with that. PS. We've made a mod for Guardians for GF5 that incorporates Gamerman's artifact batons mod and also has some artifact weapons.

The first one yes, there's a thread about it. Can be modded in. And you can also make their deaths, each one, affect your standing with the Rebels and\or with Greta. And even have personalized names for them and death messages if they die. The whole thing is a bit tricky for a beginner but not impossible. Making a couple of them recruitable for a hit in reputation with the Rebels and then getting the penalty back (or not depending on answers) when they're returned is easier. Want to go berserk? Make it possible for one of them to use the experimental canister in the warehouse to make that soldier better "accidentally" (if you haven't used it your character is theoretically unaware of what it does) for a significant hit with the Shapers AND make Alwan abandon you on Harmony. Something that Lord Rahul would drill you about when you meet him and you have to tell him "it was an accident! I didn't know!" etc just to postpone your trial until the end of the mess. Gives you a reason to go for Litalia if the Shapers threaten to have you on trial for that, doesn't it? And all those, can be done with a few changes in dialogue and some script magic. That's the power of modding.

Vinlie… you wanted scripting and moding practice. Changing the dialogue of all things, it's the EASIEST thing you can do.

Oh, you mean a completely different character based on the same experiences and background? I am not so sure... a mastermind Zackary wouldn't have been outmaneuvered by his apprentice in the first place nor he would be the follower while he was the mentor. He would be more assertive. What I mean is that without the burned-out has-been that lacked decisiveness GF2 wouldn't come to be like that.

Geneforge 2, Zackary: Zackary is IMO, not portrayed as a cunning and sly individual, but as an indecisive worthless pathetic coward lying with every breath to cover his mistakes and crimes. He is not a mastermind, nor a visionary nor a genius. He's the tarnished has-been, that is now a pencil-pusher that got eclipsed by the genius that was his apprentice, was tempted by power and blinded by a more charismatic personality with true leadership abilities - Barzahl, but didn't have the guts to open his wings and fly too close to the sun but neither had the courage to return to earth. He's not portrayed IMO as a foil for Barzahl nor as an excellent leader; on the contrary, he's portrayed as a someone Barzahl used and a bad leader. And in that regard, he's portrayed very well and plays the role of the used and discarded pawn very well. The person you describe, the leader with the plans, the mastermind that slowly changed his mind and works towards redemption, the shadow puppetmaster... Zackary IMO was never intended to be that. He's an inglorious idiot that couldn't follow Barzahl nor he had the guts to admit his crimes to the Shaper council so he's locked indecisively in the midst, until an agent shows up and he has her imprisoned as if that would stop her. In short IMO the game rightly utilizes Lying Zackary the Deceiver as a worth-less-than-a-glaak's-vomit.

I wanted the drakons to be much bigger, like they were in GF2-4. Then ... I ended up making plated clawbugs the PC makes bigger on a whim to see if I can do it. Now that I know I can do it, In quests I make in the future, I may put specific boss enemies as bigger variants. Like a Clawbug queen that isn't just another color or has just a different name, but is visibly bigger. That kind of thing.

Oh, we do have similar stuff and Dropbox does this automatically I think. Thanks.