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About the Takers not attacking the Awakened: It is not "a drayk and a few serviles". It is an army of Takers that has taken over the Western Part of the Awakened lands (the swamp) and is strangling Troia. The Awakened are under a complete siege by the Takers.

Is there a way to save Alpha Amuz, the Alpha trapped in the swamps near the Taker lands? I can get him to help me clear the area, I can get him to kill himself as if he's a weak-willed servant mind, but I don't see any option to tell him to live free. Or to go join the Awakened. Or even to go back to the Takers. This is not a rogue Alpha like the others that went mad. It is an alpha without orders that sits scared in a swamp, afraid of "the voices" that tell it to go rogue (and I am told in a text soon after that alphas that go rogue go completely mad) That said: For a Faction that talks so much about the Creation Freedoms, the Takers are quite bad to the Alphas. That Alpha is not a dog, it is a creation that can talk. Sure, sure, Alphas are not the smartest of creations but it is a sentient creature.

If you invest ONLY in one type of Shaping and Essence mastery, then yes, most battles won't be hard. But you wouldn't be able to open half the locks or talk to people. And blessing magic is IMO, a must for a Shaper.

Agents are supposed to be somewhat harder to play, I think.

I think you shouldn't be having such a hard time. Do you mind telling the optimizing-specialists here what you have, what are your strengths and all, so they could find the path forward for you?

Ah, the old "Does God command things because they are good, or are things good because God commands them?" question. You seem to be referring to the second view, while I was referring to the first. To prevent this from spiraling into an off-topic theological discussion, (though I would be amenable to one if you so wish in a separate thread), I will say this. In most Christian theologies I have studied, the fundamental rights of God to be sovereign over creation are predicated upon His identification with the four O's, particularly omniscience and omnibenevolence, as the concepts themselves personified, led to the perfection of His justice, and thus inability to make mistakes as a human would. Following the directives of such a being would be, from either a deontological or consequentialist perspective, definitionally the correct choice. I am much less confident speaking on behalf of Judaism or Islam, as my study of those is less comprehensive. The Shapers, obviously, do not claim such traits. They seem to base the ethics of their rule on a kind of materialist utilitarian pragmatism. That is, they seek the best outcome for the greatest number as they see it, and the only hands they trust are their own. Their stance on this is actually not surprising for what seems to be an order of magical scientists who accidentally and by degrees walked their way into being technocrats. They initially took power, I think, out of a combination of a desire to be left alone, a need for non-magical expertise to maintain what they had built, commons coming to them to solve problems and subsequently elevating them to power because they succeeded and seemed to know what they were doing, and a peppering of Shapers like Barzahl with actual will to power and ambition to cement the trend. Shapers seem to value property rights highly, likely because many other groups have tried to take theirs, and significant infrastructure is required to use their arts at a high level. Naturally, to them, this applies to their creations, and to the Shaper order and creation of the the Shapers in general respectively. It's also worth noting that many commons seem to have gotten used to the idea of the Shapers being able to solve any problem, and the Shapers have allowed this, as the mindset cements their rule, and likely reduces unrest.

I love the assumed emoticon. I'd be properly put in my place if it weren't so presumably darn cute. -I don't think anyone is in Drypeak by force, at least until the gates are closed and quarantined due to individuals who acted in violation of Shaper law. -Geneforge 3 is my favorite game. It was the only game I owned for probably 5 years straight as a kid, and I completed the game over 25 times, so this is gonna be my biggest beef with the above quotation: Lankan and his lackeys weren't getting sick in the swamp, period. The herbs being gathered had nothing to do with Shaper research. The Harmony Isle Rebellion progresses as follows: rogues, created by the rebellion, overrun the island; herb gatherers (literally just herbs, for seasoning food) were forbidden by Shaper Diwaniya to leave the city until he could solve the problem; the problem isn't as simple as he thought, and he realizes he can't solve it himself; Lankan takes this personally, confronts Diwaniya about his "unwillingness" to solve the problem, loses his temper, and punches Diwaniya; Lankan, the charismatic idiot that he is, convinces a handful of other gatherers to flee with him, because he's afraid to face the consequences of his actions and misery loves company. Oh, and by the way, Diwaniya, after being punched, doesn't even plan on Lankan's punishment being anything more than jail time. Should you decide to take the punch personally on his behalf, and dispense corporal punishment, Diwaniya is actually horrified at your actions. -Wartime production, eh? A war caused by who, exactly? (What is that expression? Don't throw stones in glass houses, or something, right?) In Geneforge 4, especially, most of the commons you meet are objectively pro-Shaper, and view the Rebellion as, if not objectively evil, then at least the primary aggressors. -The "miniscule chance" of becoming a Shaper is, at best, advocacy for my original point that Shaping necessitates strict control. Don't try to make me more pro-Shaper. What's more important (and impressive) is that said "miniscule chance" applies equally to all applicants. -I remember the mage you are speaking about. She was one of the defenders at Alwan's wall defense. And she's throwing around magic that only two in-game Shapers have the ability to use (the powerful lightning blast spell), and both of those Shapers are Councilors. She's also not shown to be an emotionally stable individual, so I'd be reluctant to trust her even with that much magic. I also wonder canonically, when the Shaper Order began to impose more strict controls on battle magic. GF1-Mutagen actually seems to imply that Shapers don't have any qualms with outsider mages, so I'd like to hypothesize that these restrictions arose as a result of the newly developed über-spells invented in the Drypeak mountains. Like I said, the mage you mentioned was throwing around one of the most powerful spells in the game short of Kill and Purifying Rain. What more does she want? And who in their right mind would give her what she wants? Okay, so Barzahl would...

So, I started playing with G5, and it had Sorceress and Shock Trooper. Those two classes are everything I've wanted Guardians and Agents to be. As it stands, Agents are sub-par because of Action Economy; if you invest in spells, you never want to invest into any weapon skills except Parry/Evasion. Same is true for Guardians, heavy investment into melee/missile damage just gets outclasssed by creation damage, and you can do only one, which will never be creations because more skill point costs. Both shares a common problem: Weapon attacks are dependant on two stats instead of 1 like Intelligence/Essency Mastery (in G5, it was even worse, Intelligence also gave Essence). They are also dependant on two skills, and they aren't even that cheap to raise. QA is worse than spellcraft, and Parry/Evasion, the only decent-ish skill, needs heavy investment (+ Endurance investment) to be good. I propose merging the two weapon skills into one: Weaponmastery (+8% to weapon damage), two physical skills into one: Physique (+10 Carry Weight, +5% Weapon Damage, +1 Initiative), no Evasion from this because I think it'd be too much. This frees up a slot dedicated to the new weapon shaping skills. I suggest it be focused on quick self-buffs and buffed weapon attacks. The damage from the weapon attacks would scale from Weaponmastery + Physique, and the bonus damage from the Weapon Spell would be increased by this skill (+25% Damage becoming +100% at high levels of Weapon Shaping); getting the triple-skill boost damage spells already get (Intelligence + Spellcraft + Battle Magic). While Agents might still be subpar, if the self-buffs present in this tree is unique and strong enough compared to Blessing Magic (like Lifedrain, Battle Frenzy, for example), it will be a worthwhile investment, and Parry/Evasion is decent on Agents too; letting them have a unique niche compared to Sorceress. Same for Guardians, they will be super-warriors since they wouldn't need blessing magic at all; even Mental Magic if Guardians' Roar remains on the Weapon Shaping tree; and spend their extra essence to shape. Guardians are already better than any of the previous games; I just am sad Agents can't really use the Weapon Shaping because it gets outclassed by Blessing Magic when boosted by Spellcraft and high INT.

I mean, I get it, for the essence cost... But also, I've had insane milage out of my Rotdhizon on higher difficulties. The survival element is insane, and the AOE acid attack does significantly greater damage per hit than the rotghroth's acid spray attack. Not to mention the ability to cover an entire battlefield in acid regardless of directionality stacks a huge amount of damage over time. That said, battle Shaping is insane. My Loyalist Shaper, at level 11, was able to take down Tuldaric with investments practically only in Battle Shaping and Essence Mastery, and it wasn't a difficult fight. Side with Zachary early, and you can get 4th tier battle creations early. Now, a strong gust of wind, and I'm down. But if I stay free and clear, it's been shocking how easy the game is even at the highest difficulties.

Oh, I did! [Assume an emoticon of an angry looking drayk carrying a torch] 1. I mostly disagree with some of your points. First, I do agree the Shapers delude themselves by thinking themselves the Greatest good. I also agree on their non-desire to rule. In fact, we meet an Agent in GF4 (or is it GF5) that is very annoyed that she has to hear complains from people and actually rule. Then I partially (and not completely) disagree with other parts of this thesis. I disagree on the taxation part; we do see that, especially in Drypeak. People are effectively serfs, tied to the land to support a colony that is on purpose doing bad. Geneforge 3 also has the swamp farmers that were getting sick in the swamp gathering things for Shapers to do their research. Geneforge 4 has the wartime production that is taking its toll on the Common. Etc. "And if they want to pursue magic, even Shaping, there are non-exclusive avenues for that, until your own (lack of) skill or (in)competence disqualifies you." This is also wrong. There is a miniscule chance you would be allowed to be a Shaper and the reason to be disqualified is lack of Loyalty. The common pursue magic - to the point the Shapers allow them. We see that in later games where a loyal mage is refused further magic knowledge. I do agree that Shapers are not materialistic; they do have bigger homes and luxuries but they are not like the nobility of the renaissance with the huge castles and tons of servants. However, that doesn't change the fact that this is not unique for a ruling caste. Theocratic leaders very often are like that. The ambition of the Shapers is not to have a huge house and live in obscene luxury. Simply put there is less "income inequality" than you saw in feudalism or oligarchies but that doesn't apply just to the Shapers. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand... I need to go. But I plan to return to the later parts.

I did notice wine was added for healing. Toward the end of the demo, I was trying to kill the withered roamer and lost all but one of my creations, then it spawned 3-4 artilas. (I'll have to load the original game to check, but I don't remember AoE spells damaging my party on hard difficulty.) With one healing pod and no spores, I may have to lower the difficulty or keep reloading. My fyoras were doing 2-7 damage. Thahds were having to walk so far that they couldn't attack. I had one point in stealth, but combat initiates from very long distances. Sometimes enemies weren't visible without moving the screen.

yeap, I read that story. But I assumed SOME Obeyers would exist along the Awakened. Me too!!! I couldn't tell her the truth! I let them waste what precious resources they have in thinking that this is important because there's not a neutral way, of "Ohh, how great! You did very well. Now, as a Shaper I will quickly peruse those very precious notes you kept, and decide what is too dangerous to be kept, what is outdated and what you should keep and preserve. Here is a cookie!" Then, I would burn most of the crap, but leave 3-4 boxes of stuff so she keeps feeling important. I would tell her how much better things are now for me the Shaper because of the accurate numbers of potatoes we brought from the mainland 142 years ago and that their vigil will help bring peace to the Island, but unfortunately, some things would need to burn.

yes, but at one point you run out of slots. Since I am not at that level, instead of buying up Fire Shaping to give my creations +1 level, I bought Mastery so I can afford another drakon.

The remakes limited the use of food as cheap, quick healing. It makes it worthless to keep collecting food and only bandages and wine (ingredient later on in the game) are sellable versions of food.

I appreciate this point! Thank you for your engagement! While I agree with you, I'm not sure whether the strongest proponents of the theory fully would. In my not altogether insignificant experience with religious doctrine, it is the very essence of the creator that so far transcends the essence of the creation that gives the creator supreme rights over his creation. By so fully and eternally separating the creator from his creation (both in essence and in understanding), there is no action the creator can do that is evil. He can send a worldwide flood, command genocide, or burn the world in fire; all of these actions may be defined as good when the creation is stripped of the possibility of understanding what 'good' ultimately means. Now, granted, in the Abrahamic faiths, part of this Creator's "transcending essence" is His omniscience, omnipotence, and... well, I've not heard it put this way, but omnibenevolence. So it's impossible to extricate whether the essential difference between a creation and a creator alone is enough for the theory to still hold water; and if it does, to what degree does the creator have to transcend his creation before the theory is valid? It's impossible argue that there isn't a difference in essence between a Shaper and his creation. Whether there is a transcendence of any degree is on the table, but the canonical worldview (at the very least to the knowledge of contemporary Shaperdom and commoners) supports that there is a distinct superiority of the human being to the servile being. Yes, amazing. Thank you! I couldn't think of the name of this for the life of me.

Playing as a Shaper, I do feel having more creation at zero upgrade has a better outcome than spending essence on upgrades of fewer creations.

There is some evidence (as early as the Ruined School, actually) that many of the powers of Sucia expected to return. It's possible some of them expected to return as fast as a year or two. "Just gotta go explain this whole thing to the Council. Once they see what we are looking at, they'll not just let us but ORDER us to come back and continue our work." That kind of thinking. And I assume whoever reported the Geneforge and the other illegal Sucia research to the Council expected that after an investigation they'd go and burn everything to the ground. For the people wanting to continue, it makes sense to leave the Serviles so it won't take as long to get back up and running when you come back. For the ones wanting or even just expecting the Council to delete the island itself, it didn't matter if any Creations were left behind because after the investigation is done they'll all be destroyed anyways. Even if they were brought back to Shaper lands, they'd most likely be destroyed for having been associated with the illegal knowledge. The failing here is on the Council for not having gone to destroy everything on Sucia the decade after they Banned it. But once that decade passes, a Council seat or two change over, people stop wondering why a location is Banned. They assume some Shaper experiment went horribly wrong and it's simply not safe. Maybe someone accidentally shaped a pyromosquito there, or something. It's not worth asking "why is this place Banned?" unless and until someone has a use for the land. And by all accounts Sucia doesn't look like a very valuable island. Nowhere to put a big port, not in a militarily useful location, no reason to want it unless you wanted isolation. But even then it's not far ENOUGH away to let you have the sense of escape from Council oversight. A shipwreck, someone intentionally going there to violate the Ban, or the Sholai are really the only ways someone ends up there, so what does it matter? And after 2 decades, even if one of the original Council members pushes to send a force to kill everything, the new ones will ask "but why? Anything left there has already gone Rogue and killed or destroyed anything of value. What Rogues don't tear up, weather will."

There are journal entries from Danette, the leader of the Shapers on Sucia, that indicate that the Barring was sudden and completely unexpected, and also that most of the Shapers there expected the island to be unbarred within a year or so, after they'd had a chance to politick and convince the Council of the merits of their work. Obviously this didn't happen, but it does explain why the island wasn't razed. They didn't want to destroy their work when they all thought they'd be back.

Thank you! That was always helpful to me, especially starting out with little money for spores. Edit: My character can't use food for healing because he's "still full". I was playing on hard. It's been a long time since I played the original, so I can't say for sure, but I think I was able to heal anytime with food. 🙂

That's one of the things in all SpidWeb games with a reputation system that I really appreciate. The rep points are so generous that even first time through I don't feel forced to take EVERY decision going either way. I can mix and match as I want. Because how many Awakened Shapers will tell her her entire life (and that of her predecessors) have been devoted to completely useless and worthless activities? Likewise, even the most even-tempered of good people are gonna be tempted to squash the GIFTS eggs, because GIFTS . . .

I don't believe so.

I was thinking about this when replaying G1. As far as I can tell, the only reason the Sucian serviles went rogue is because they were left to their own devices for generations. I know they were in a rush to leave after the place was Barred, but that was just irresponsible of them. Even then, if it wasn't for the freak occurrence of organic servile ideologies AND the GENEFORGE being made, I don't think the rebellion ever could have happened. Ironically, if the shapers had been as iron-fisted as they're stereotyped to be, the entire series would have been avoided. Of course, you can't maintain that level of vigilance all the time, so I guess it was inevitable that one of the intelligent, self-sustaining creations would learn magic & shaping.

JDubkins, so the ol' Hegemonic Stability Theory. Amiright?

The above from JDubkins is why I expressed some sympathy for Alwan's position in G5, despite ultimately being a rebel. Of course, the Shapers, in having to deal with "modernity and the Enlightenment" as you put it runs into something of a different situation as regards the serviles, because they were literally designed to be what they are, and to be happy about it, and it seems like most of them actually are, given that it took a situation like Sucia to create the Takers, and outside influence and the creation of drakons to kickstart the rebellion. It reminds me of an alternate history where the 16th century European explorers discover the New World, only to find it populated not by the Native Americans, but rather Homo Erectus. Now obviously, the serviles are fully sapient, and much more intertwined with their creators than in that example, but it does present a slightly different challenge to an alternate Enlightenment when the ethics can't use universal human brotherhood as a basis, and have to skip straight to universal sapient brotherhood instead, especially when one of the brothers is carnivorous, and may possibly be convinced to eat you if he gets mad enough. (See Barzahl Buffet in Taker ending) I would also add, that in terms of a creation's duty to obey its creator, IRL religious examples from the Abrahamic faiths depend of the idea of God's omniscience and omnibenevolence, both things that the Shapers both manifestly are not, and have never claimed to be, even to themselves.

I feel bad, because no matter how pro-servile I am in GF1, I always lie and tell her those notes are important (even knowing otherwise) just so that she will buy them. I don't even need money in that game, and I still do it.